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Bill Brown
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Grace Baptist Church
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-JD
1Thess5:21
Ordained Deacon, PCA
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There's nothing Arminian at all about that concern. I fear that multitudes are going to split hell wide open who thought they were going to heaven since they prayed the "sinners prayer" and some "soul winner" told them they were saved.

__________________
Chris
Member at Grace Community Baptist Church
Mandeville, LA

"Faith alone saves, but it is a faith that works." - S. Lewis Johnson

Matthew 7:21-23
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

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-JD
1Thess5:21
Ordained Deacon, PCA
Serving in an Acts 29 Church

MS

My links: ChristianSkepticism.org | personal | facebook | Prescriptive Psalmody

Pergamum,

My apologies for inadvertently mentioning that which should not be mentioned.
Kevin,

I love the zeal and concern that many people have that might otherwise not have all their facts straight.

Some always confuse a condemnation of the messenger and the message. Not so for me. I do think we need to help people who are otherwise zealous be zealous about the right things.

I know I sometimes joke about some things I used to see when I was charismatic like the Royal Rangers who gave points toward advancement for every body they won for Jesus. My humor could be misunderstood as disdain but sometimes humor is also used as a way to take the edge off of something you're really sad about too. Unfortunately, it becomes less of an issue of merely having sorrow for erring messages the more that theology is rooted in downright rebellion.

Notice the limit that the Scriptures themselves place on the proper abode of compassion for error: for the ignorant or those that are out of the way but are not being outright rebellious in that. I obviously have more of a problem with a Dave Hunt type who would use and defend the sinner's prayer in open repudiation of the nature of man and the Gospel.

My point is that I'm not the type to throw out babies and bathwater but just because I love babies doesn't mean that every time I want to throw out their bathwater means I didn't consider them babies.

I sort of hear a common thing here that states: "Well God can use anything so what's our concern...."

We have a recent member on the PB who used to be a JW minister. I used to be Roman Catholic. God can use anything. In fact, I remember this one lady that used to belong to my Church that used to frustrate me to no end. She concluded that Reformed people should not dislike the Roman Catholic Church so much because she learned so much of the Bible from them. Well, yeah, me too. I wasn't biblically ignorant when I was converted from the Roman Catholic Church but it doesn't mean that every means shouldn't be taken captive. Just because it worked for me doesn't mean I'm going to suggest to parents that they raise their kids in Roman Catholicism hoping that a chain of Providence leads them to the Reformed faith.

Why can't we all just agree, first, on what the ordinary means of Grace are for salvation?

I know I'm preaching to the choir here but you mentioned some things that I wanted to make sure folks know I understand it's not all a "us v. them" world.

I have a brother in my local Church that mentions that there are things he used to believe and, therefore, do that he believed were honoring to God that he is now ashamed of. That's my experience as well. I've always been a fairly zealous person and had a concern for the life and growth of the Church but my ideas about what those things used to be were very wrong. I used to be a Worship Team leader, for instance, that knew just how to craft an entire service to bring people to a place where they "...just wanted to worship the Lord...."

I still have a concern and desire for the lost but that concern has been deepened and my desires have been re-shaped by the Word. My conception of what really converts the soul makes it hard for me to accept a measure that I can just simply conclude that God will work around. I believe for me to do that would be to tempt God and say: "I know you said to convert the soul with these means but this seems to get results too. If I'm being a bit sloppy then you'll just use whatever means you can anyway...."

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Rich
Northern VA
PCA

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Poimen made a good point that we should make sure we know what the "sinner's prayer" is in this discussion...I am a sinner and I pray.

Perg said:

"Lord,

I want to be saved. Grant me true faith and true repentance so that I might beleive in you and be saved. Grant me understanding of who you are and keep me from my sins. Give me a new heart and change the course of my life..."


I personally see nothing wrong with that...a prayer asking for faith and repentance.

Sounds modeled after scripture to me.

While a "sinners prayer" obviously does not save it seems to act more of a confession of faith.

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Matthew Morales (Husband to Rachel)
Redeemer Presbyterian Church (Santa Rosa, CA)

"...But this is the one to whom I will look: he who is humble and contrite in spirit and trembles at my word." Isaiah 66:2b (ESV)

"Judge not the Lord by feeble sense, But trust Him for his grace;
Behind a frowning providence He hides a smiling face"-William Cowper

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DAVIDIVS DOCTVS VTRIVSQVE LINGVAE
Husband of Emilia
Member: First Reformed Presbyterian Church of Durham (RPCNA) - Durham, NC
Currently in the process of transferring membership to an as-yet-undecided church in Chapel Hill
Student: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, German Literature and Classics

I think I am starting to see the basic reasons why I have clashed with many this past month...


I have been dialoguing with several that fall squarely into the "Truly Reformed" camp and their abiding concerns are precision. I think I have discovered the broad difference betwen BR and TR and I now can label myself as "broadly reformed". So that where the TRs see precision, I see rigidity, where I see freedom they see a loosey gooseyness on my part.

It does appear that much of these clashes occur when dealing in issues where TRs and BRs diagree. For instance, my TR friends' solutions for every doctrinal error is more of the WCF and more catechism. This corresponds to Rich's answers to me on a previous thread. So, I am seeing some trends in responses. Whee I rejected confessionalism as a cure-all, this struck the more TR oriented people as wanting to base my theology on the air. There seems a fundamental difference in going about issues from these two camps I am discovering.

So, here this past month I have been exploring these issues where BRs and TRs disagree most widely. And these issues seem to have the greatest potential at "fiery-ness" because in these issues we are, sort of, fighting over the very definition of reformed.

For instance, my friends keep telling me that I am not "reformed" enough and when I ask them what they mean the answer is usually one of greater precision in ecclesiology, even when I think the Scripture warrants more freedom, etc.


So, I am profiting from these discussions, even if a lot of heat occurs.



So, again, does anyone (divorcing one's self of the boogeymen that the term "sinner's prayer conures up) have any problems with my stated practice of leading people in prayer and teaching them how to pray?


Turmeric: I understand your concerns. Can you see anything wrong with what I mentioned as myown practices though?




Also, again:

How are we to teach people to pray. Can we teach lost people to pray for their salvation. Of course, we are not to teach any act as saving, but only faith...but how are we to teach people to pray since with the mouth confession is made and in the heart on believes unto salvation?


And, if we give people model prayers to pray (such as Jesus's or the publican's in LUke) or one of our own, then how closely would this resemble some sinner's prayers:


A sample prayer:


Lord, I want to be saved. I am a sinner. Please grant me true faith and true repentnace and help me to trust in you truly. Please have mercy onme a sinner..."


Is it okay to teach people to plead this as they are seeking the Lord?




Finally, I love you guys! I mean that. Every important discussion should have some intensity. And every one of our assumed truths should be challenged. What is it thatis both good and bad when we give others examples of how to pray. And, am I doing anything wrong?

__________________
Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

There isn't any problem with teaching people to pray. Indeed the Lord himself did it! Others use the A.C.T.S. model in teaching prayer--Adoration, Confession, Thanksgiving, Supplication (did this originate with the Navigators?) The popular Valley of Vision published by the Banner of Truth Trust is a collection of Puritan prayers. Writers like Phillip Doddridge included prayers in books like The Rise and Progress of Religion in the Soul.

The biggest issue I have with the practice is that typically the evangelist or preacher will immediately assure the person who prayed that he has been saved. "If you just prayed that prayer...." I would also take issue if someone were to say that it was necessary to pray something akin to the "sinners prayer" in order to be saved.

__________________
Chris
Member at Grace Community Baptist Church
Mandeville, LA

"Faith alone saves, but it is a faith that works." - S. Lewis Johnson

This is exactly my biggest trouble with formula "sinners prayers." genuine repentance is reflective of the inner conviction of the Holy Spirit, not the teaching of a formula prayer.

I actually know of a Pastor who ends every service by asking everyone in the congregation to prayer with him, he doesn't call the "sinners prayer" but that is exactly what it is. It is as though his parishioners are supposed to be coming to church every Sunday morning to "get saved" all over again from the sins they have committed that week.

What has happened to discipleship when it merely consists of feeling guilty and praying a prayer that if it indeed saves, then why must I pray it again just as I did last Sunday? Have I been convicted of sin by the Holy Spirit and repented unto salvation or have I merely been made to feel guilty by the words of a foolish man and asked to pray a formula prayer?

"For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death." (2 Corinthians 7:10 NKJV)

"Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God." (Hebrews 6:1 NKJV)

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Pastor Chris Surber, M.A.R.
First Congregational Church
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"Prayer is as natural an expression of faith as breathing is of life." - Jonathan Edwards

Perg,
There is a big difference between how you asked the question in post 1
vs. post 17\
We have all seen the abuse, and psychological manipulations to get a person to make a verbal commitment to an idea, "just believe" just have faith,etc. with no real concern for the truthfulness of the facts about our lost condition.
The sinners prayer that is used is a caricature of gospel teaching.Some have spoken of it as parrot salvation- The soul winner says;
Repeat after me: Lord I believe I am a sinner,and I do not want to go to hell,so i pray you will save me for Jesus sake,amen.
Friend you have repeated the formula, and now you are saved, once saved always saved, no matter how you live.

Then the sinner says; Um, thats it? I do not have to live a converted life or anything?

The soul winner says, no you have prayed the prayer and now you can just sail through life as a carnal christian. The only sin you can commit is to doubt that you are saved!

So Perg, in post #1 this is what people were reacting to when you use the phrase "sinners prayer"
In post 17 you speak of asking for mercy like those persons described in the gospel accounts. This presupposes a knowledge of sin,and judgement to come. We should all be excited to have a conversation that would end up with us describing prayer to someone who is quite possibly still outside of Christ.
I remember asking God to have mercy upon my soul, as that was what i remember the people did in the gospels in response to the Spirt's convicting work.
As far as what happens if someone says I have accepted Christ.
I think it has already been indicated that pehaps that is a really good time to begin to disciple the person by explaining how in reality, salvation is of the Lord.
New people to the faith most likely do not even know any of these things are even an issue, so there is no need to over -react [we can save our over -reacting for our posts here on the PB]

Maybe Jn 1;12-13 is a good section to go over with someone ,as well as romans 10....personally I incorporate romans 10;1-15 in any presentation of it
Just like using eph1;3-11 as well as eph 2:1-10
Don't be so stingy on the verses. turn them loose

__________________
Anthony D'Arienzo
Sunday School Teacher
Hope Reformed Baptist Church:
Medford, N.Y.

Perg mentioned meeting those who don't know how to pray, truthfully friend I don't know if anyone truly does all the time.

I'm exasperated and at a loss to talk to the Lord at times, I plod on the best i can but I think it comes from our disposition, one that thinks prayer always has to be eloquent and when you are coming to grips with your wretchedness there is little eloquence to summon.

__________________

Travis Speegle
Redeemer Presbyterian, PCA (Waco, Tx)
Pacific Cross Roads, PCA (Los Angeles, CA)


"When it comes to trustworthy theologians one can usually honor the rule of thumb that the deader the better."-Dr. John Hannah, DTS (of all places)

Some previous "Sinner's Prayer"/evangelism throwdowns:

"trick Sinners Prayer"

Another Question about Witnessing

How do you Evangelize? "Reforming Evangelism"

Dr. Matt! Question about Wild Boar quote. (and the link to the apuritansmind article, which includes the Jonathan Edwards' 'Sinner's Prayer')

"... close your eyes, and repeat this prayer after me..."

http://www.puritanboard.com/f18/sinner-s-prayer-16346/

The only personal addition I might have is this: I saw a previous post talking about how we must be 'constantly reforming'. AGREED, 100%. But taking the historical meaning of that term to heart means ejecting cultural/personal/etc/etc/etc baggage and turning to scripture alone. If that's the context we say it in,

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Kevin
Far East
Deacon, Int'l Church

Thanks for the input. Yes, the term "sinner's prayer" is like hanging a kick me sign around one's neck - even when one qualifies it, like I did to some degree (not enough I guess) and then a few posts down, when I give an example of my "sinner's prayer" that I teach others:

"Lord,

I want to be saved. Grant me true faith and true repentance so that I might beleive in you and be saved. Grant me understanding of who you are and keep me from my sins. Give me a new heart and change the course of my life..."


Do you see anything wrong with giving an example such as this? As far as assurances of salvation, these should never be given to anyone,, but as far as given someone a form or an outline when they are still unsaved, it just seems wise, biblical and practical.


One need not buy into all the excesses of Finneyism as they help someone with praying as they first approach Christ.

__________________
Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

Sorry, Perg, I was asleep. No, I don't see anything wrong with the prayer you teach people, it's way better than the "sinner's prayer" they use in the States, it seems entirely orthodox. It's true, people who come from other religions often don't know how to pray. They might wonder; what direction should I face, how many times must I bow, how does one address Jesus Christ, should I use beads, it goes on and on. I don't think there's anything wrong with teaching people to pray, or with your sample prayer. May God continue to bless your work!

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The man who is disposed to think of his sin as a great calamity, rather than as a heinous crime, is not likely either to reverence God or to respect His law. - John Kennedy, 1873
Meg
Blog
Member, Intown Presbyterian Church,PCA, Portland, OR

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Couple random thoughts:

I find this topic fascinating because it is surrounding evangelism. I cant put my finger on it but there seems to be conflict of pragmatics vs principle (or maybe no conflict at all), such as when someone confesses Christ or says they want to be a Christian...what do you do with them? Since many believers understand the importance of apologetics and dealing with objections but when someone finally says "I Believe!" we may be taken back: "really?".

Obviously they must understand what they confess (such as the gospel, etc). But I believe at some early point a Confessor's/Believer's Prayer (maybe a better way of saying Sinner's Prayer) is in order because Christians must pray and the "how to" may be foreign to people especially from other cultures, etc. By confessors prayer I mean nothing that is a one time thing but primarily continued through out their life. Such as praying for forgiveness, faith, wisdom, etc.

I think everyone agrees that faith is a gift, not earned by a prayer model (it seems we agree to set aside the idea that praying when you confess Christ is NOT the catalyst to becoming a Christian), thus I think is important that if you are going to pray with a budding believer and teach them to pray should also include guiding them to scripture that teaches them such (Lord's prayer).

Again, I have been around people that have confessed Christ but are completely unaware of things like how to pray, etc, as some have much trouble wrapping around their mind around some of the details and "how to" of the faith but believe in the Gospel and Christ. If the church is the body of Christ I do not think we can expect a new Hand on the body to immediately pick up a pencil and start writing, but to be taught and shown...discipled in prayer.

The Sinners Prayer has baggage as a name, but I do think praying with a new confessor/believer is a very biblical thing...nothing like having a brother to help walk you through the intimate aspects of the faith.

__________________
Matthew Morales (Husband to Rachel)
Redeemer Presbyterian Church (Santa Rosa, CA)

"...But this is the one to whom I will look: he who is humble and contrite in spirit and trembles at my word." Isaiah 66:2b (ESV)

"Judge not the Lord by feeble sense, But trust Him for his grace;
Behind a frowning providence He hides a smiling face"-William Cowper

Here's an interesting series on You Tube that might relate to the subject matter. Parts 5 & 6 are particularly germane to the subject of "the sinners pray." I don't think the guy is Reformed (I could be wrong), but he's definitely not "shallow" concerning these things. He has written a book upon which he based these videos. The Graham Formula by Patrick McIntyre can be downloaded in PDF form here.