Thread: Revival in China?

Revival in China?

Even more significant is a steadily growing network of underground or "house" churches, which are said to have up to 100 million members.

Does anyone know what kind of theology these "house" churches embrace?

Thanks for the article, Andrew. I was just talking to a friend yesterday about the status of communism in China and what role the church would play in the fall of communism. Great timing!

Originally posted by Rick Larson

Even more significant is a steadily growing network of underground or "house" churches, which are said to have up to 100 million members.

Does anyone know what kind of theology these "house" churches embrace?

Lots are rather charismatic although don't let the associations with that word put you off instantly. They are in particular not like many modern charismatic churches in the west because they are 1) pushed to actually think about what they believe due to persecution 2) due to a 'do or die' attitude (can't think of a better way of explaining it) they are certainly not dripped with the apathy and many other practicle problems the modern church happens. There are also some reasonably Calvinist churches (They at least hold similar views to the DoG).

Due to 1000% growth in some areas over a number of decades there is also a problem of having people with much Biblical knowledge. Many pastors are trained more by beatings, jail and harsh punishment that actual Biblical knowledge - Bibles are just hard to find.

You could almost understand the 'charismatic' movement there (charismatic mostly only in the way they think of gifts) because they have no other way of revelation when Bibles and Bible knowledge is so rare. From the Chinese I know they at least use it more Biblicaly than all charismatics I know (ie. they actually test things, pray in groups etc...)

I also know that many Christians over there pray for the Communist party to remain because the persecution keeps the Church strong. The last thing we want is an apathetic church of a 100 million with no sound knowledge of scripture.

I am not the biggest authority on the matter though.

I was hoping you would post fraser. (r u on messeger anymore?)

Blade

Originally posted by Abd_Yesua_alMasih
You could almost understand the 'charismatic' movement there (charismatic mostly only in the way they think of gifts) because they have no other way of revelation when Bibles and Bible knowledge is so rare.

Though I agree with a lot of what you say, Fraser, I believe that the "charismatic movement" there owes more to the influx of unsound Western missionaries and their teachings since the 1980s than anything else.

Other than the small minority of house churches built on reformed teachings, I would say that the most solid house churches are those with roots going back at least several decades and connected with the old preachers who received the most persecution in previous years. Though the printed Bible was especially scarce in those days, many of these men had it well written on their hearts, and they had a hold of the true gospel.

All of the tongue-speaking and other such teachings came in with the charismatic Westerners in the 1980s, and unfortunately these are the teachings which are spreading most rapidly. A great many of them are also Arminian in the most heretical sense, speaking almost nothing about true repentance and surrender to Christ, but emphasising instead the benefits and fulfillment people can get from believing in God, always trying to persuade people by any means to pray the "decisional prayer" so they will be guaranteed salvation. It can be easy indeed to get people to "accept" this message, since it avoids the cross and has no cost.

False and heretical teachings spread rapidly indeed among those who have never come to saving faith in the true gospel in the first place.

You are right that there is a tremendous need for sound, godly and Biblically knowledgable pastors in this land.

I know that the Lord is indeed doing great works in this land, but we must pray fervently for purification and reformation.

Hudson Taylor would be grateful.

Jie-Huli, thank you for sharing that. You obviously are a lot more familiar than me with the subject. My knowledge is mostly second hand from Chinese themselves.

Originally posted by puritancovenanter
Hudson Taylor would be grateful.

There is a man whose work is still bearing good fruit across the land, even after all the years and all that has happened within those years.

"But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty." Matthew 13:23

I have heard a bit about Hudson Taylor but I have never delved too deep (you know what it is like when everyone talks of them and you don't want to go to basics). Was he Reformed?

Originally posted by Abd_Yesua_alMasih
I have heard a bit about Hudson Taylor but I have never delved too deep (you know what it is like when everyone talks of them and you don't want to go to basics). Was he Reformed?

Yes, he was reformed and Calvinistic, just as other great missionaries of those times such as Adoniram Judson and William Carey.

I assumed he wasn't as I only heard of him at first among charismatic friends :P Nice to know these things.

Originally posted by Abd_Yesua_alMasih
I assumed he wasn't as I only heard of him at first among charismatic friends :P Nice to know these things.

Yes, he is one of those men of God whom all kinds of people praise flippantly without really knowing or caring to learn what he really stood for . . . they would often rather just remake his memory in their own image.

Americans roughed up in China, Cops reportedly mistreat U.S. Christians during raid on house church, August 9, 2005

On Aug. 2, the two Americans, students believed to be from Westminster Theological Seminary campuses in Texas and California, were in their host family's home in Lutou Town, Zaoyang City, Hubei Province with 41 pastors and other Christians when approximately 30 Chinese plain-clothed police officers rushed in.
...
The two Americans were neither permitted to contact the U.S. Embassy nor permitted to show their U.S. passports and other identification cards. Both were taken to a government "hotel" for interrogation and were released after a seven-hour interrogation. Some of the Americans' belongings, including their personal bibles, notebooks and books on the Westminster Confession of Faith, reportedly were confiscated.

Arrest First, Ask Questions Later, August 24, 2005

[Edited on 9-7-2005 by VirginiaHuguenot]

Originally posted by Rick Larson

Even more significant is a steadily growing network of underground or "house" churches, which are said to have up to 100 million members.

Does anyone know what kind of theology these "house" churches embrace?

Thats like what percentage of China?

Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot
Americans roughed up in China, Cops reportedly mistreat U.S. Christians during raid on house church, August 9, 2005

Arrest First, Ask Questions Later, August 24, 2005

[Edited on 9-7-2005 by VirginiaHuguenot]

I haven't posted anything in a while (seminary...need I say more) but I saw this and I just wanted to comment that, to my knowledge, that Mrs. Ren Daoyun, 60, and Miss Gu Junqing, 38, are still in prison. Please be in prayer for those imprisoned as though you were in chains with them. And pray for the church in china - Christ is faithful, and He is building His church there and caring for His people faithfully, just as He has promised - still, they need your prayers more than ever.


And consider going over to help - and for those of you in seminary to serve the most precious thing on this earth - Christ's precious flock, for whom He died - study hard.

Originally posted by Jie-Huli

Originally posted by Abd_Yesua_alMasih
I assumed he wasn't as I only heard of him at first among charismatic friends :P Nice to know these things.

Yes, he is one of those men of God whom all kinds of people praise flippantly without really knowing or caring to learn what he really stood for . . . they would often rather just remake his memory in their own image.

Hudson Taylor calvinistic ????? He was a great missionary and inspiration, but as far i know he was not reformed but a methodist background.

Originally posted by Mayflower

Originally posted by Jie-Huli

Originally posted by Abd_Yesua_alMasih
I assumed he wasn't as I only heard of him at first among charismatic friends :P Nice to know these things.

Yes, he is one of those men of God whom all kinds of people praise flippantly without really knowing or caring to learn what he really stood for . . . they would often rather just remake his memory in their own image.

Hudson Taylor calvinistic ????? He was a great missionary and inspiration, but as far i know he was not reformed but a methodist background.

He was technically non-denominational with his mission organization. But he was Calvinistic in his doctrine.

Originally posted by Rick Larson

Even more significant is a steadily growing network of underground or "house" churches, which are said to have up to 100 million members.

Does anyone know what kind of theology these "house" churches embrace?

100 million? Really? That's almost 10% of the population.

Originally posted by puritansailor

Originally posted by Rick Larson

Even more significant is a steadily growing network of underground or "house" churches, which are said to have up to 100 million members.

Does anyone know what kind of theology these "house" churches embrace?

100 million? Really? That's almost 10% of the population.

It is impossible to say for certain how many members the house churches have . . . 100 million is on the high end of the estimates. Unfortunately, the number of Biblical Christians is probably much lower than that. These high estimates almost always include Catholic churches, and a lot of other churches that I would say do not possess the true Gospel. Of course there are also a good many churches very faithful to the Lord in the face of great resistance. Keep China in your prayers.

Originally posted by DanielC

Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot
Americans roughed up in China, Cops reportedly mistreat U.S. Christians during raid on house church, August 9, 2005

Arrest First, Ask Questions Later, August 24, 2005

[Edited on 9-7-2005 by VirginiaHuguenot]

I haven't posted anything in a while (seminary...need I say more) but I saw this and I just wanted to comment that, to my knowledge, that Mrs. Ren Daoyun, 60, and Miss Gu Junqing, 38, are still in prison. Please be in prayer for those imprisoned as though you were in chains with them. And pray for the church in china - Christ is faithful, and He is building His church there and caring for His people faithfully, just as He has promised - still, they need your prayers more than ever.


And consider going over to help - and for those of you in seminary to serve the most precious thing on this earth - Christ's precious flock, for whom He died - study hard.

I met with Bob Fu of ChinaAid a few days ago and found out that the two final prisoners (Ren Daoyun and Gu Junqing) from my group have been released! Ren Daoyun however, had been quite badly tortured. Thank you for your prayers for them. I do so appreciate it!

Can anyone tell us how the Church in China is doing these days, in a general way, or with respect to particular needs/prayer requests?

Well, I just came back from China in July and I can say that I was majorly impressed by the size of the Chinese church. Although I was in Hong Kong for most of my trip there (HK is not Communist), I did take a week long trip to Shanghai and had the privilege of meeting some undercover missionaries and people involved in smuggling Bibles into the underground church. So from my experience, I would agree with most of the posts in this thread. It seemed to me that most Chinese evangelicals would be continuationalist, however, as said before they are very responsible in the way that they use the gifts. So one thing to pray for is that they wouldn't be influenced by the 'less responsible' side of the Charismatic movement and that they would be firmly rooted in the truth of God's word.

Another thing to pray for is that pastors would be better equipped for teaching their congregations. One thing that some missionaries in China told our group (our ages ranged from 15-30 years old) was that most of us had more knowledge of scripture that 90% of the pastors in China. In fact, the majority of this particular missionary's duties was to travel to house churches in the mainland and train up pastors. So there is a strong need for good leadership in the Church.

God is definitely raising up His church in China in this century and I think that we should all be praying for this nation.

[Edited on 9-4-2006 by Shaffer]

I certainly agree with the statement above.

Last time I investigated or read anything about this and listened to the arguements here was a generally break down in numbers.

At the time there was roughly 20 million 'official' Christians who go to Free Self Churches.

The House Church movements claimed about 100 to 120 million followers but some foreigners I was talking to at the time of reliable standing said this was generally assumed to be lower, around 60 to 80 million or slightly less.

It is always hard because people could go to both the Free Self Churches and the house churches but not always.

Catholics were, as far as I understood from my conversation, not included in this as the Chinese words are different. From my understanding of Chinese what is often translated 'Christian' is actually 'jidujiao' which is closer to protestantism. I have forgotten the word for Catholicism. I asked at the time if the figures included Catholicism and they said no.

Thanks, gentlemen.

Good to hear about the church in China.

We need Reformation in China!!!

We need Reformation period!!!

Among all the mentioned heresies in mainland China(note that the two special administrative regions Hong Kong and Macau do not belong to MAINLAND China because they run in different social system), the official Three-self Patriotic Movement Committee has never ever on the list. Yet the biggest and most detructive heresy in mainland China is nobody else but the Three-self Patriotic Movement Committee. They are liberals and modernists and combinations of Protestant liberalism/modernism and communism.

The "friendship" between some of the denomintions in US and the Three-self Patriotic Movement Committee in China and their recognition of the Three-self Patriotic Movement have made the Three-self Patriotic Movement Committee's heretic work even more deceiving. A few so called China bible exhibitions have took place in the US the past few years, promoting the Three-self Patriotic Movement's image mainly to the Chinese churches in US. This has made it even harder for churches in North America to realise the true nature of the Committe and the Three-self Patriotic Movement. Charismatics are reviving in mainland China, but they are not the original root of Christianity in mainland China. The groups of Christians who kept true Christianity alive and have maintained it during the tough time of the establishment of People's Republic of China was the fundamentals. I don't know how unlike or alike are they with the US fundamentals in early 20th century, but at least it is how they call themselves.

Speaking of development of China christianity, the recent movements going in the US are one of the main forces that are polluting the cross-emphazising and self-denying China christianity. The Alpha-course, the Purpose Driven Life ministry and the trend of Henri JMNouwen's meditation books and the "Christian" image of Mother Teresa have all entered China christianity. Church in China is a large land that everybody in North America love to have a bite. With the heretic movements keep coming from the US and the shortage of more intensive theological training, plus the internal materialism of the church herself, it's making people like me to be very worrying about whether or not can Church of China resist and not get deceived if one day the Pope-commanded Western Ecumenical Movement has officially landed on mainland China.

I want to here particularly point out that Rick Warrent was invited to give speech in the 7th Chinese Coordination Centre of World Evangelism Conference, held in Macau July 2006. He emphazised "unity" in his sermon, which makes me feel worrying. I wonder how the sermons of such social participation-emphazising-minded ministers like him(if you could get what i mean) would affect the ministry "philosophy" of those Chinese leaders listening to his sermons down stage.

As for Hong Kong, it is definitely the other maind force that could corrupt the Christianity in mainland China. What will Hong Kong's christianity look like in the future will surely affect the development of Church in mainland China because, among all the cities througout China, the churches in Hong Kong(and Macau) has the closest and most intensive bond with those Evangelical Churches in North America. Hong Kong, though extremely small, is a tactical factor affecting church in mainland China, at least it is so for the time being. Whoever from the US denominations want their ministry and movements enter mainland China, they better plant them on the soil of Hong Kong and Macau first. The Chinese churches in Hong Kong and Macau can act as mediator to help spreading the western movements back into mainland China because many of them have already run ministries and trainings in the mainland for years since the handover in 1997.

To help the church in China out, there are a few things i personlly think the saints in North America can do:

1) Keep fighting against(not in a violent and fleshly way) and exposing US local heretic movements, such as Charismatic movement, ecumenical movement and the New Age, so that your voices will be heard long across the ocean by the Chinese in Asia, so that the Chinese won't get deceived by one western view only, but can hear more different comments from other denominations from the US.
Here in Hong Kong i am lucky that the church i'm going encourages us to read books by some of the truth fighters in the US like Dave Hunt and Jim McCarthy(founder of Good News for Catholics). I would have mis-believed in Billy Graham and never realised whom the woman rides the beast is without their voices heard from the US.

2) Don't co-operate with and support the Three-self Patriotic Movement Committee.
To know more about the historic error and the heretic nature of the Three-self Patriotic Movement, download a book written by a Wenzhou underground church minister which analyse and explain why the christians in china do not and should not accept the Three-self Patriotic Movement. No English version available yet, but you can share it with your Chinese brothers and sisters in Lord in the US:An Analysis of the Three-self Patriotic Movement

3) Repent, and revive your own churches in the US, revive the self-denying, culture-denying and God-centered gospel. Only the true soldiers of Christ deserve to and are able to fight against heresies for Truth.

Hope my English is readable.

[Edited on 17-9-2006 by Ken S.]

Ken S,

Thank you for this informative picture of the church in China, Hong Kong, and Macau. (Seems you lost part of your post at the end).

It is clear that we need confessional, reformed work in China, Hong Kong, Macau, the former iron curtain countries, and the third world, as well as North America.

Only the historic, confessional, reformed understanding of Scripture will stand up to and refute the errors of liberalism, modernism, arminianism, the Three-Self Patriotic Movement, Roman Catholicism, the evangellyfish churches, the charismatic movement, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, fundamentalism, dispensationalism, and (sorry) Dave Hunt.

Originally posted by jaybird0827
Ken S,

Thank you for this informative picture of the church in China, Hong Kong, and Macau. (Seems you lost part of your post at the end

it's edited

Originally posted by jaybird0827
Ken S,

Thank you for this informative picture of the church in China, Hong Kong, and Macau. (Seems you lost part of your post at the end).

It is clear that we need confessional, reformed work in China, Hong Kong, Macau, the former iron curtain countries, and the third world, as well as North America.

Only the historic, confessional, reformed understanding of Scripture will stand up to and refute the errors of liberalism, modernism, arminianism, the Three-Self Patriotic Movement, Roman Catholicism, the evangellyfish churches, the charismatic movement, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, fundamentalism, dispensationalism, and (sorry) Dave Hunt.

i guess i've wasted all the time of writing for you gentlemen。

So what's wrong with Dave Hunt? Anyone bother to explain to me? And what is wrong with dispensationalism and what does that to do with Dave Hunt?

I have very limited theology knowledge. The only theology I know best, in my poor theology knowledge, is Calvinism. As for dispensationalism, i don't know much about it, but i just clearly know that we are very close to the end time, that Jesus indeed will be back soon. I know it, I can feel it, because the signs described in the Gospel of Mathew reminds me, making me alert, and the Holy Spirit make me recall the scripture whenever i hear news about disasters, abnormal climate change and all those frequent earthquakes, and not to mention all those heretic movements coming from the west and the fact that global christian churches become more and more rebelliouse. No matter what is wrong with dispensationalism, I am still sure that these signs have not went wrong.

[Edited on 17-9-2006 by Ken S.]

Dave Hunt is a laughing butt here.

But I appreciate Ken's zeal for chruches in China.

We need more reformed literature translated into Chinese.

Originally posted by duncan001
Dave Hunt is a laughing butt here......

it is very arrogant to say so without showing evidences.

If you people know something about Dave Hunt which i do not know, you should explain to me instead of simply making comments in just one or two words. This is not the right way of helping your brothers in Lord. Imagine, how would you feel if i say "John Calvin is just a brutal murderer, don't believe him" ?
What is the right way of helping the brothers who have mis-believed Calvin the brutal murderer? And what if Calvin has nothing to do with brutality at all?

I'm not here to accuse him and the Reformed, in fact I see myself as a reformed. I mean how am i supposed to correct my belief that has infected Dave Hunt gene if I don't even know what his mistakes are? Are you guys using the right way of helping this brother(me) out?! And are you guys sure you are really right when you comment Dave Hunt?

Frankly I'm already trying to behave myself and be very careful in choosing which word to use and which not.

[Edited on 17-9-2006 by Ken S.]

[Edited on 17-9-2006 by Ken S.]

[Edited on 17-9-2006 by Ken S.]

Dave Hunt arrogantly opposes John Calvin.

Example 1

Example 2

[Edited on 9-18-2006 by jaybird0827]

Ken -- Thank you very much for your input, brother. I think there is a great "information gap" between the church in China and the church in the West that goes two ways. Much more information is needed on both sides, "as iron sharpens iron." Thank you for sharing your thoughts, and God bless!

[Edited on 9-17-2006 by VirginiaHuguenot]

Originally posted by duncan001
Dave Hunt is a laughing butt here.

But I appreciate Ken's zeal for chruches in China.

We need more reformed literature translated into Chinese.

Ken,

I didn't say this against you, if you feel offended, I'm terribly sorry.

I just raised this fact since it seemed to me lots oof people here
were familiar with Dave Hunt.

BTW you could google Dave Hunt and find a lots of info about him.

Have a nice day.

Originally posted by Ken S.

Originally posted by duncan001
Dave Hunt is a laughing butt here......

it is very arrogant to say so without showing evidences.

If you people know something about Dave Hunt which i do not know, you should explain to me instead of simply making comments in just one or two words. This is not the right way of helping your brothers in Lord. Imagine, how would you feel if i say "John Calvin is just a brutal murderer, don't believe him" ?
What is the right way of helping the brothers who have mis-believed Calvin the brutal murderer? And what if Calvin has nothing to do with brutality at all?

I'm not here to accuse him and the Reformed, in fact I see myself as a reformed. I mean how am i supposed to correct my belief that has infected Dave Hunt gene if I don't even know what his mistakes are? Are you guys using the right way of helping this brother(me) out?! And are you guys sure you are really right when you comment Dave Hunt?

Frankly I'm already trying to behave myself and be very careful in choosing which word to use and which not.

[Edited on 17-9-2006 by Ken S.]

[Edited on 17-9-2006 by Ken S.]

[Edited on 17-9-2006 by Ken S.]

Dave Hunt has come close to saying that Calvin and Augustine are burning in hell due to their theology. Even if Hunt may be accurate in his views on Rome--and I really don't think he is--that does not validate his theology. It just means that every once and a while, the worst of em can be right. Kind of like a broken clock is right twice a day.

If you want to insult a Romanist (and in our witnessing with them we will get further with them by sticking to the basic disagreements rather than trying to insult their intelligence), quote Dave Hunt. And in doing so, you will lose that chance to witness to them.

Just a quick note on the earlier, pre-Dave Hunt portion of the discussion:

"Ji du jiao" is Christian
"Tian fu jiao" is Catholic
"Ji du tu" is also Christian, which I believe is saying that you are a disciple of Christ (as "tu di" is disciple and they often say only half a word to represent the whole)

I am not sure of the theology in the house churches around here, I will ask.

The Three-Self Church is indeed government controlled and more liberal but some people choose to work through them as they are then witnessing to government officials as well, a truly unreached and lost crowd.

Originally posted by Draught Horse

Originally posted by Ken S.

Originally posted by duncan001
Dave Hunt is a laughing butt here......

it is very arrogant to say so without showing evidences.

If you people know something about Dave Hunt which i do not know, you should explain to me instead of simply making comments in just one or two words. This is not the right way of helping your brothers in Lord. Imagine, how would you feel if i say "John Calvin is just a brutal murderer, don't believe him" ?
What is the right way of helping the brothers who have mis-believed Calvin the brutal murderer? And what if Calvin has nothing to do with brutality at all?

I'm not here to accuse him and the Reformed, in fact I see myself as a reformed. I mean how am i supposed to correct my belief that has infected Dave Hunt gene if I don't even know what his mistakes are? Are you guys using the right way of helping this brother(me) out?! And are you guys sure you are really right when you comment Dave Hunt?

Frankly I'm already trying to behave myself and be very careful in choosing which word to use and which not.

[Edited on 17-9-2006 by Ken S.]

[Edited on 17-9-2006 by Ken S.]

[Edited on 17-9-2006 by Ken S.]

Dave Hunt has come close to saying that Calvin and Augustine are burning in hell due to their theology. Even if Hunt may be accurate in his views on Rome--and I really don't think he is--that does not validate his theology. It just means that every once and a while, the worst of em can be right. Kind of like a broken clock is right twice a day.

If you want to insult a Romanist (and in our witnessing with them we will get further with them by sticking to the basic disagreements rather than trying to insult their intelligence), quote Dave Hunt. And in doing so, you will lose that chance to witness to them.

No one here is trying to insult the Romanist.