» Site Navigation | | | » Online Users: 80 | | 22 members and 58 guests | | Beth Ellen Nagle, Davidius, DMcFadden, Ex Nihilo, gene_mingo, Ivan, JM, jmartinez83, JohnGill, john_Mark, Josiah, kalawine, mossy, MrMerlin777, nleshelman, SolaGratia, Theoretical, Timothy William | | Most users ever online was 856, 07-06-2007 at 12:19 AM. | |  | 
05-22-2008, 11:46 AM
|  | Puritanboard Freshman | | Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 442
Thanks: 69
Thanked 108 Times in 75 Posts
| | How important is being friendly in evangelism? | | The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to nleshelman For This Useful Post: | | 
05-22-2008, 11:58 AM
|  | The Odd Mod(erator) | | Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Janesville, WI
Posts: 5,730
Thanks: 204
Thanked 1,138 Times in 489 Posts
| |
I believe that winsomeness is absolutely crucial to evangelism and it's biblical. Let's not confuse evangelism with apologetics. Sometimes defending the faith is part of proclaiming the gospel but most times we are tearing down strongholds.
So with evangelism we should be friendly, in defending the faith, not so much. Quote:
2 Tim. 2:24 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, 25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.
1 Pet. 3:13 Now who is there to harm you if you are zealous for what is good? 14 But even if you should suffer for righteousness' sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled, 15 but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, 16 having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame. 17 For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be God's will, than for doing evil.
Prov. 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly,
lest you be like him yourself.
5 Answer a fool according to his folly,
lest he be wise in his own eyes.
| | | The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to BobVigneault For This Useful Post: | | 
05-22-2008, 12:09 PM
|  | Administrator | | Join Date: May 2003 Location: Texarkana (Border of Texas and Arkansas)
Posts: 15,647
Thanks: 1,501
Thanked 1,673 Times in 888 Posts
| | |
Bob, you big teddy bear.
| 
05-22-2008, 12:17 PM
| | Puritanboard Doctor | | Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Saintfield, Co. Down, Northern Ireland
Posts: 6,568
Thanks: 2,062
Thanked 1,124 Times in 740 Posts
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by BobVigneault I believe that winsomeness is absolutely crucial to evangelism and it's biblical. Let's not confuse evangelism with apologetics. Sometimes defending the faith is part of proclaiming the gospel but most times we are tearing down strongholds.
So with evangelism we should be friendly, in defending the faith, not so much.
| An exceedingly useful distinction - even if made by a cartoon
__________________
Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)
| 
05-22-2008, 12:42 PM
| | Puritanboard Freshman | | Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Liberty, MO
Posts: 31
Thanks: 6
Thanked 11 Times in 6 Posts
| |
As carefully as possible, I think I have to take issue with Dr. Packer's perspective. I am particularly critical of the popular idea that believers must "earn the right" to speak to another person about Christ. Although this seems to make sense at first glance, I don't think it squares with the Biblical witness. Isn't Acts full of scenes where faithful believers are "expounding the things of God to reluctant strangers who are longing to get away"? I'm afraid that Packer's understanding of evangelism falls short at this point by unwittingly borrowing from the salesman's handbook instead of the Scriptures. The right to proclaim the Gospel has been earned by Christ himself and does not need to be granted in any way by an unbeliever. We are heralds of the King, not salesmen for a product. As a herald of Christ, I actually am tasked with the duty of "intrusive barging into the privacy of other people's souls." I am able to speak to their lives without the necessary basis of deep personal interaction precisely because my witness is to an objective historical work of God in Christ.
To tell the truth, the following sentence really scares me, Quote: |
We have to give ourselves in honest friendship to people, if ever our relationship with them is to reach the point at which we are justified in choosing to talk to them about Christ, and can speak to them about their own spiritual needs without being either discourteous or offensive.
| Justified in choosing to talk to them about Christ? The Great Commission is justification enough for me. Where is the urgency in proclamation? This confirms my worst fears about the manner in which Reformed believers can sometimes use Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God. So much great stuff in that little volume, but it is very easy to react against the excesses of revivalism and "decision"-oriented evangelism by retreating into a complacent mentality that "God is sovereign, so there is no real urgency to evangelism."
Now, don't get me wrong here. I am very cognizant of the need for a winsome witness in one sense. I believe that we must proclaim the Gospel in such a manner that others will be able to see the love of God in our eyes, never a self-righteous pride. As the old saying goes, we must be beggars pointing other beggars to life-giving bread. However, borrowing from a wise distinction made on another recent thread, this attitude is a moral necessity for the believer, yet not essential to evangelism. I can rejoice with Paul as long as the Christ is proclaimed, even if it is not out of love (Philippians 1:18). Evangelistic power is ultimately rooted in the efficacy of the Word not the subjective manner of the one who proclaims it.
__________________
Bryan Peters,
First Baptist Church, ABC-USA
Conshohocken, PA
Three Forms of Unity (moving to RCUS soon)
The more we know of God, the more unreservedly we trust Him; the greater be our progress in theology, the simpler and more childlike will be our faith.
~J. Gresham Machen~
| 
05-22-2008, 12:47 PM
| | Puritanboard Freshman | | Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Québec,Québec; Canada
Posts: 212
Thanks: 0
Thanked 20 Times in 18 Posts
| |
being friendly is good just don't use chick tracts
__________________
Joseph P. Grigoletti II
Lay-person
OPC
Québec, Québec Canada
"The best and final gift of the gospel is that we gain Christ." John Piper. God is the Gospel. Page 11. Crossway Books Wheaton,IL 2005.
| 
05-22-2008, 01:04 PM
|  | The Odd Mod(erator) | | Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Janesville, WI
Posts: 5,730
Thanks: 204
Thanked 1,138 Times in 489 Posts
| | |
You are correct Bryan. I like what you wrote. I would encourage, however, as we form our 'style' to consider the language of Paul in 2 Cor. 5:
16 From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
* ours is a ministry of reconciliation
* in God's own ministry of reconciliation he did not count the world trespasses against them (yes, it would take a while to unpack that)
* he entrusted to us a message of reconciliation
* we are ambassadors
* we are making an appeal, we are to implore
We are not to make the message appealing or even friendly. We are to PROCLAIM the Gospel with it's love and mercy, judgment and wrath, atonement and propitiation, but we can do that using loving and friendly words.
| 
05-22-2008, 01:24 PM
|  | The Odd Mod(erator) | | Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Janesville, WI
Posts: 5,730
Thanks: 204
Thanked 1,138 Times in 489 Posts
| | |
I'm working presently to try and reconcile a young couple who just separated and it reminded me of something that happened long ago.
About a hundred years ago, well, I guess it was about 28 years, I messed up in my marriage. My wife wanted a divorce and fortunately there were no children yet. I was clearly the offender and the pastor called to say the elders wanted me to come to the church and meet with them. My response: "Who do they think they are? I don't have to answer to them. They are no better than me. They are not in any position to judge me. NO, I WILL NOT!"
What do you think the elders did? (Yes, I met with the pastor and two more and that didn't help.) Then, they called a good friend of mine. Not only a friend, but a friend who, years before, had gone before the elders in discipline. He came to my house and spoke as my friend. He told me what would happen when I met with them and that they were seeking to reconcile me to my wife, to the church and to God. He spoke in friendly words without trying to whitewash my sins. After much talk and hugs and tears I agreed to meet with the elders. They helped to bring about the reconciliation. Years later, I would be one of the elders who would be trying to restore others.
That is how a ministry of reconciliation is conducted.
| | The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to BobVigneault For This Useful Post: | | 
05-22-2008, 04:04 PM
|  | El Tirano | | Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 3,346
Thanks: 115
Thanked 597 Times in 375 Posts
| | |
Bryan, I agree that the great commission gives the church the right to authoritatively proclaim the Gospel. But I am trying to think of uncaring people being in one way or another obliged to listen in the book of Acts and I'm coming up short. When Gallio cared for none of those things, he didn't listen. I can't think of any reluctant stranger who wanted to get away who was buttonholed anyway. Can you help out my failing memory?
| 
05-22-2008, 04:06 PM
| | Puritanboard Professor | | Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: United States
Posts: 5,101
Thanks: 814
Thanked 200 Times in 168 Posts
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by joshua Bob, you big teddy bear. | Chuckle! Sorry Bob.
__________________
~etexas~
| 
05-22-2008, 06:08 PM
| | Puritanboard Doctor | | Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Saintfield, Co. Down, Northern Ireland
Posts: 6,568
Thanks: 2,062
Thanked 1,124 Times in 740 Posts
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by jogri17 being friendly is good just don't use chick tracts  |  I used to give out LOADS of them in Belfast...before I learned that Calvinism was Biblical, then I used others.
__________________
Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)
| 
05-22-2008, 06:28 PM
|  | Puritanboard Sophomore | | Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Kirkland Wa
Posts: 712
Thanks: 395
Thanked 46 Times in 29 Posts
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by jogri17 being friendly is good just don't use chick tracts  | forgive my ignorance, but what is a chick tract?
| 
05-22-2008, 07:41 PM
| | Puritanboard Freshman | | Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 39
Thanks: 4
Thanked 7 Times in 6 Posts
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah forgive my ignorance, but what is a chick tract? | They are tracts produced and distributed by Jack Chick. You can check some out here.
__________________
Rob Somers
New Creation RPC
Kitchener, ON
| | The Following User Says Thank You to uberkermit For This Useful Post: | | 
05-22-2008, 08:32 PM
|  | Bubba | | Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Beloit, Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 6,079
Thanks: 605
Thanked 364 Times in 292 Posts
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by uberkermit Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah forgive my ignorance, but what is a chick tract? | You can check some out here. | You can, but do you want to?
__________________ Ivan Schoen, Pastor * Maranatha Baptist Church * Poplar Grove, Illinois USA www.maranatha-sbc.org/ "Mankind is divided into two sorts: such as live according to man, and such as live according to God. These we call the two cities...The Heavenly City outshines Rome. There, instead of victory, is truth" — Augustine of Hippo | 
05-22-2008, 08:51 PM
| | Puritanboard Freshman | | Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 39
Thanks: 4
Thanked 7 Times in 6 Posts
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan You can, but do you want to? | Jack Chick's tracts are not worth much, to be sure. I supplied the link so Josiah could get an idea of what they are. Perhaps I should have put a disclaimer with the link, warning of faulty teaching...
__________________
Rob Somers
New Creation RPC
Kitchener, ON
| 
05-22-2008, 09:01 PM
|  | Puritanboard Junior | | Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Boothwyn, PA
Posts: 1,164
Thanks: 55
Thanked 187 Times in 119 Posts
| | |
I better stop wearing my "did you burn a heretick today" t-shirt when i evangelize
__________________
Larry Bray
Training for Elder - Reformed Presbyterian Church of Boothwyn, PCA
Boothwyn, PA - http://www.rpcb.org/ Free Online Reformed Seminary - http://www.tnars.net
-----------------------------------------------------
"The best Christian is still a poor Christian" - R.B. Kuiper
| 
05-22-2008, 09:04 PM
| | Puritanboard Doctor | | Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Saintfield, Co. Down, Northern Ireland
Posts: 6,568
Thanks: 2,062
Thanked 1,124 Times in 740 Posts
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by larryjf I better stop wearing my "did you burn a heretick today" t-shirt when i evangelize | Yeah, they might think you're a Theonomist.
__________________
Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)
| 
05-22-2008, 09:11 PM
|  | Puritanboard Senior | | Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Rockville, CT
Posts: 2,407
Thanks: 377
Thanked 546 Times in 432 Posts
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by larryjf I better stop wearing my "did you burn a heretick today" t-shirt when i evangelize |
Where can I get one of those?
__________________ Sterling Harmon
Coventry, CT
PCA
Deacon
________________
"Whatever is laudable in our works proceeds from the grace of God."
-- John Calvin, Institutes III:xv.3.
"Our Lord God must be a good man, to be fond of worthless fellows. I cannot like them, and yet I, myself, am one."
-- Martin Luther, Table Talk | 
05-22-2008, 09:23 PM
|  | Puritanboard Junior | | Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Boothwyn, PA
Posts: 1,164
Thanks: 55
Thanked 187 Times in 119 Posts
| |
Here are some that are close...
__________________
Larry Bray
Training for Elder - Reformed Presbyterian Church of Boothwyn, PCA
Boothwyn, PA - http://www.rpcb.org/ Free Online Reformed Seminary - http://www.tnars.net
-----------------------------------------------------
"The best Christian is still a poor Christian" - R.B. Kuiper
| 
05-22-2008, 09:26 PM
|  | Puritanboard Senior | | Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Rockville, CT
Posts: 2,407
Thanks: 377
Thanked 546 Times in 432 Posts
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by larryjf Here are some that are close...  |  I thought you were joking when you said: Quote: |
I better stop wearing my "did you burn a heretick today" t-shirt when i evangelize
| .
__________________ Sterling Harmon
Coventry, CT
PCA
Deacon
________________
"Whatever is laudable in our works proceeds from the grace of God."
-- John Calvin, Institutes III:xv.3.
"Our Lord God must be a good man, to be fond of worthless fellows. I cannot like them, and yet I, myself, am one."
-- Martin Luther, Table Talk | |