What do yall think about church and denomination websites with "How to become a Christian" page? Wouldn't the title itself imply a works based salvation? This is an example of what I mean

__________________
Miller Ansell
Christ Covenant Prebyterian Church (OPC)
Amarillo, TX
Wayland Baptist, student, Amarillo, TX Major in Christian Studies

I think they can be helpful. The page tittle might more appropriately be labeled, "What does it mean to be a Christian?" I don't think people intend for their efforts to help people come to the Lord to have the flavor of works - but they do nonetheless. As for the above quote, Owen helped me see the faulty logic in including "Jesus died for your (individual) sins" as the nature of the Gospel offer. It should more appropriately be stated that Jesus Christ is the only satisfactory offering for sins before God and that the Gospel is that you should trust in him alone for salvation. As Packer points out in this Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God, the Gospel isn't that Jesus died for everybody, or that Jesus died for x people, those things are or are not true about the Gospel; rather, the Gospel is that Jesus Christ is offered as the only way of reconciliation with God for our justly deserved condemnation for sin.

If I'm off on that, I'd appreciate any help in correcting that understanding though!

__________________
Jacob
Sovereign Grace Ministries
Covenant Fellowship Church
West Chester, PA

"Grace renews nature; glory perfects grace." ~ John Owen
Blog - The Strasbourg Inn

What about when the Apostles answered the question, "What must I DO to be saved"? Or when they asked Peter, after coming under conviction for crucifying Jesus, what must we DO, and Peter says, "Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins". It seems that some would consider this work based salvation. It seems like they were explaining, 'How to become a Christian'.

A distinction that people have told me that has helped me on this issue, is that we are passive in regeneration, but active in salvation. That is, God takes out our wicked, God hating, Adamic heart and gives us a new heart(Eze 36.). He implants spiritual life to us. Am I justified at this point? No. Now with a new heart that is in accordance to the things of God, the Gospel is given and I freely, actively, respond to the Gospel. I place my trust in Christ and repent of my sins, and have the 'benefits of the atonement applied
to me by faith'.

So, there is something for someone to do to be saved. Repent and Believe the Gospel. That is how they can become a Christian. The benefits of the atonement can be applied to them if they repent of their sins and trust in Christ.

__________________
Andrew Clerebout
Joy Baptist Church, IFB (Westland, MI)

"Let us never forget that truth, distorted and exaggerated, can become the mother of the most dangerous heresies." - J.C. Ryle, Holiness

We should always be pointing the way to salvation and explaining how it happens. Some explanations are woefully inadequte, but nevertheless, this shouldn't be a reason to forsake the practice of explaining the Gospel - just striving to explain it better.

__________________
Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

A good answer but let's take this further.

A person is not a Christian unless they are baptized and taught the Christian faith. A Church is required to be a Christian.

I don't have a problem with posting what the nature of the Gospel is but these "How do I become a Christian thing" with the prayer at the end and the assurance that "...if you prayed this then you're a Christian now..." is bunk. You're a Christian when you're baptized and in a Church.

__________________
Rich
Okinawa, Japan

WebsiteMaven - Web Hosting Reviews, Guides, and Advice to build and promote your web site.
SoliDeoGloria.com - A Community for Reformed Thought and Discussion

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

This is interesting for me, because this very thing that we're talking about, I have been wondering for a while.

__________________
Dan Pemberton
Vacaville, CA

Member, First Baptist Church San Luis Obispo
Formerly ABUSA (We left, so I guess that makes us American Baptists Unleashed!)

I disagree with this last statement. Baptism doesn't make one a Christian anymore than being a cooked piece of food makes the piece of food a cookie.

If you belong to Christ you are his. You must belong to Christ to be a Christian.

__________________

R. Martin Snyder

1689erPuritanCovenanter MSN Blog
Harmony Baptist Church (Member)PuritanCovenanter's MySpace Page
"Our object should not be to have scripture on our side but to be on the side of scripture; and however dear any sentiment may have become by being long entertained, so soon as it is seen to be contrary to the Bible, we must be prepared to abandon it without hesitation."William Symington

Click to get:Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

This one is my favorite.
DYKFS - English - 1

I just noticed that Webmaster's can put it on their sites now.

Evangelism Explosion International

I assume that you did not intend, by those verses, to overthrow the analogy of faith?

Is a man a Christian who is not a disciple? Can you give me an example, from the Scriptures, of a man who is a Christian who is not a disciple or what a Christian would look like apart from the visible Church?

Remember, the disciples were first called Christians at Antioch. Christianity and discipleship cannot be separated.

Or perhaps what you're telling me is that you actually don't know any Christians because they're all in the invisible Church even if the visible Church at Antioch knew who they were when called Christians.

I think a man can belong to Christ and be a Christian before he is baptized. It is by faith alone.

So Christ's command to His apostles to make disciples by baptizing them and teaching them everything He commanded is a superfluous step to what it means to be a disciple?

As I see it, you detach the elective work of God (the hidden things) from the revealed things. The revealed things belong to us Randy. Where do the Scriptures reveal that a man may be a disciple apart from baptism and the doctrine of the Apostles? You speak theoretically of the things hidden but the revealed things of the Covenant of Grace show a sign ordained by God to mark out those that are Christians.

I don't say of myself that I'm a Christian. The Church administers that with the authority vested in it by Christ. Your ideas are not mediated by the Word. God's election remains veiled in a cloud of mystery and you would have it remain there without reference to the revealed things about what God states are the requirements to be called one of His disciples on this Earth. You don't preach the hidden things to a man (if God has elected you then you are a Christian and we'll get around to baptizing you), you preach the revealed things (repent and be baptized).

We were discussing what is a Christian. I guess we need to define Christian and disciple. I do believe they may be synonymous but not necessarily in all situations.

And you seem to make an assumption that I think baptism is a superfulous step. I didn't say it wasn't a necessary step. I said I think one can belong to Christ, having the Spirit of Christ (thus be a Christian), without having been baptized. I don't think Baptism is makes one a Christian as does a persons faith in what Christ has done for him and on behalf of him does.

I do believe that a man can become a disciple and a believer before he gets baptized. Why would a man be baptized if he wasn't being taught and disciplined in the faith? I am not speaking theoretically. You are flattening out and pressing together things that are not necessarily to be pressed together the way you are. Yes, they belong together but not they way you are making them fit.

Again, I ask Randy, if Matthew 28:18-20 is superfluous. If a man is a disciple before he is made a disciple by the Church then what was Christ commanding them to do?

Okay....

Does the text say make disciples by baptizing them? Or does it say go forth and make disciples, baptizing them?


Do you understand my question? I am not sure I am showing the differences in the questions well enough in my questions.

I ask can one be a Christian and not belong to Christ? Can one be a disciple not having been baptized yet?

I think you would respond with Yes to the first and a no to the second question.
NASB
KJV


The text reads "make disciples, Baptizing them. Who are they baptizing? The disciples. Not everyone who is taught.



Gill

No matter how you slice the verb, Randy, the tenor upon Christ's command is that being marked out as His in this world means you are under the visible discipleship of His Church. A person is not already a disciple before they are in the process of being discipled.

I certainly hope that, as an introductory announcement of what it is to be a Christian, you are not telling men that they may well be Christians apart from the Church of Jesus Christ. This, after all, is the nature of the post itself.

I'm not at all confusing categories by insisting that the visible Covenant must mark a man out from among the world before the world knows he's marked out regardless of what might have happened by the work of the Spirit. You are holding out the false notion that the invisible and visible can, in fact, be visibly separated from one another. It is one thing to distinguish between the invisible and visible but quite another to separated them.

If a man walks up to me and asks me how to be a Christian, I'm not going to reply: "Well, you might already be a Christian because you could have been elected from the foundation of the world...." That hidden decree belongs to God. The revealed things belong to me: "Believe and be baptized...."

I don't know where you believe you find the Scriptural warrant to keep insisting upon this notion of extra-Church discipleship. Again, I note that it was the disciples who were called Christians and not some theoretical, invisible group that the world would never be able to identify.

Hmmmm....


But one can be baptized (as an infant) and not yet taught for years due to infancy (maybe only goo goo ga ga) and still be considered a Christian in some circles, right?

Years? How long do you wait to train your children in the fear and admonition of the Lord.

I assume you must agree with me that Christianity requires discipleship but you simply disagree about whether or not your children are disciples even though you treat them that way.

0 to 2 years is years.....

But I do grant your point....discipleship is key, though I would not emphasize baptism as much as you.

I would deny that the children of believers are part of the church or deserve the name Christian until a profession and baptism is given...but this is a tired ol' rut ont he PB and I hate to get into credo versus paedo again...