Dreams and visions

I have talked to many new Christians (praise God for His Harvest) these past 3 months. These I talked to claim to have encountered someone whom they claim is Jesus through dreams and “visions”, after which they searched for all the info they could of this prophet in their own Scriptures (the Qrn) and then the Bible.

The usual scenario is this: They come from the background of another faith. They have a crisis of faith. They dream of a man in white that they identify as the Prophet Jesus. Then, when they awake, they are motivated to find out more about him. They eventually read the Bible or go to a church service where they have a dramatic conversion experience due to a quick reception of Jesus (i.e. a readiness to accept) and then they usually end up ready to serve Jesus very quickly and enthusiastically because they feel as if the Lord talked to them directly through this dream.

No kidding, fully 15-20% of converts in one region I have met attribute God’s providential sending them dreams as a major factor in their conversion. Their dreams did not save them, only faith in the Christ that they read of in the Word. But the dreams did influence them greatly.

How in the world do I process this?

In places where Christ is not named is it possible that God works through dreams and visions still?

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Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

What????!!!??

Pergy! You are crazy.....


...get off this board you hairytick!

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Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

I've said this before, but if such dreams actually happened they would invalidate Paul's argument in Romans 10:13-15.

"For 'everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.' But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, 'How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!'"

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Scott Roper
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian Church (PCA): "A bunch of hippie Calvinists"
Winston-Salem, NC

I too have greatly wondered about this question. Many conversion accounts I have read of in "The Costly Call" (vols. 1 and 2) contain such stories. I suppose I am inherently uncomfortable with it, but it does seem to me that it is possible that God uses such things to pull people toward himself. Does that mean they are inspired dreams? I don't know about that, but somehow the preponderence of these things does leave me at the point where I am not willing to dismiss them as nothing.

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Joel S.
St. Paul's Presbyterian Church (Orlando, FL)
M.Div. Student, RTS Orlando, Oviedo, FL

Perhaps extraordinary providences?

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Chris Coldwell
Lakewood Presbyterian Church (PCA), Member
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I'm speaking from pure speculation here. I gave up dreams with the charasmatic movement. But I don't want to limit God either by my Western mind so I'm open to consider more. I've heard of these stories too. My hunch (and it's only that at this point) is that not even the Koran can successfully mask the majesty of Christ. When these folks are brought to an end of their false religion, and realize they need something more which Islam can't provide, they long for this missing element, and in their spiritual distress they have these dreams, indicating their preperation and longing for something better. Perhaps their dream of the "prophet" is working within a cultural paradigm Islam has set for them with it's supreme prophet Mohammad as the final vehicle of revelation. In their inner longings and dreams, now disallusioned with Mohammad, they long for a better prophet with better promises. They are receptive to the gospel because God has graciously weaned them off of their dead idols. Again this is just my hunch. Missionaries on the field would probably be better informed whether I am right or not.

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Patrick
OPC
MDiv, RTS Jackson.

"He does well, that discourses of Christ; but he does infinitely better, that by experimental knowledge, feeds and lives on Christ." Thomas Brooks.

Of course these dreams are not revelation, or else we'd be writing them down and adding them to Scripture...

But, they seem to be providential happenings that affect these people greatly. Perhaps they are manufactured out of the dreamers psyche, realizing that their old religion was inadequate.

Me....when I want dreams, I just eat a little cheese before bed!

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Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

Careful, or you'll invalidate Paul's conversion.

I'm not judging one way or another Pergamum's examples... just saying that it is certainly possible for God to do this (not that we should expect he will).

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Todd K. Pedlar
member, First Congregational Church, (CCCC) Cresco, IA
http://semperubi.rtrc.net

"Many men, after a long conversion, see more of the workings of sin in their hearts than ever they did before or at their first conversion. Now, such men have not an increase of sin, but an increase of illumination and light" (Christopher Love)


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Praise God that He is building His church throughout the world.
I have heard of similar accounts in what is probably a similar situation. I would not discount the method that God used to bring these people to Himself. Sure it's not the way that we are usually accustomed to, but the situation, I expect is pretty different from what most of us are familiar with.
God has an infinite variety of means, some of them indeed, extraordinary, that He uses to draw people to seek Him. However, we come to Him by only one way.
I am sure that there are reasons why God has used this method. Anyone have any idea why this particular method? Does the prevailing culture facilitate people toward having dreams?

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Donnie MacLeod
Crossroads Presbyterian Fellowship (PCA), Maplewood, MO
MDiv Student Covenant Theological Seminary

You filled my heart with greater joy
than others may have found
As they rejoiced at harvest time,
when grain and wine abound.Ps 4:7, Sing Psalms 2003

We need to differentiate between the ordinary and the extraordinary. The former continues and the latter has ceased. Dreams etc are not from God.

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Richard
CofE
UK

Do they claim that they obtain new knowledge through their dreams or do they just get the desire to find out about Jesus through their dreams?

It was God's plan that they would have those kind of dreams, but those dreams are not inspired by God.

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Curt Hayashida
member, Community Bible Church (Non-denominational)
Vallejo, CA

What is the difference between an American atheist having a dream about Jesus and disregarding it as his imagination, and a Middle Eastern Muslim having a dream about Jesus and wanting to know more about his dream? The Muslim regards dreams seriously, while the Atheists explains away their significance. It doesn't appear that these people have no prior knowledge of Jesus. It doesn't have to be revelation, but why couldn't God use someone's faint knowledge of Jesus to spur them on to find out more about Him?

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Brad
Deacon
Redeemer Church
Jackson, MS

How do dreams of "Jesus" fit in with the second commandment?

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Andrew Myers
Husband of Jessica, Father of Jackson, Katie and Samuel
Member, Presbyterian Reformed Church of Northern Virginia
Warrenton, VA USA
Editor, The Matthew Poole Project

"Let your Morning Thoughts, and your last Evening Thoughts, be what shall become of you to all Eternity." -- Matthew Poole

I'll give a parallel situation. Say an unbeliever in anytown USA picks up a copy of the Da Vinci Code. He decides he wants to know more about the historical Jesus. In God's providence, he asks the pastor of a Bible believing church who is able to direct him to good sources, and lead him to an understanding of Jesus. This man becomes a believer and credits The Da Vinci Code for being a root cause of his conversion. Now we would say that God doesn't usually work through the Da Vinci Code, and we wouldn't encourage unbelievers to read it in the hopes that He will work in a similar way. But we also wouldn't be totally skeptical of the story.

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Brad
Deacon
Redeemer Church
Jackson, MS

I think if the image pops up in a dream, it may be a result of seeing images when awake. So whoever made the images and encouraged the mental images have sinned. The dreamer may be suffering because of that sin, either his own or another's.

But God works on us through many ways. I don't discount dreams having an effect. My own personal experience with dreams convinces me that God can use them to his glory (one example: vivid dreams of a man dressed in a soiled white garment taking a credit card to save my soul kept me from becoming a Catholic when I was seriously interested). I think the thing to remember is that if someone comes to you saying he had a dream of Jesus, you must point him to the Word.

Dreams don't give us truth, but God can use them to shake us from our slumber, so to speak.

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R.Vic Bottomly
Providence Reformed Baptist Church, Tacoma, WA

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I think those are real works of God. How else would a man in a Muslim nation (for we often hear of this things out of that region of the world) repent of Islam and believe on the Lord Jesus and bear fruit in it except it be the work of God.

If we cannot understand it or reconcile it to our own theology, let's not fight against it. Let's rejoice with these new Christians and see how their faith progresses.

How does one explain John Hus's prophecy? (I assume most a familiar with it).

As a new Christian I had both dream and visions before I was taught I wasn't allowed to have them. lol

RB

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Geoff/Reformed Baptist
Acworth, GA
John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
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Can the same be said of dreams in which seventh commandment violations are represented? It seems to me that if it is a sin to make a mental representation while awake that violates the second or seventh commandment, for example, such representations even while in an unconscious dreaming state reflect the sinfulness of the heart, and are in fact culpable, not commendable, because they reveal the corruptions of our heart.

Perhaps one who vainly imagines a false image of Christ may be lead by God to the true Christ, as revealed in the word; in so doing, I trust that God's Word and Spirit will convict him of the truth that we are not to make mental representations of Christ, and while he may struggle with it, he will, by God's grace, not condone it.

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Andrew Myers
Husband of Jessica, Father of Jackson, Katie and Samuel
Member, Presbyterian Reformed Church of Northern Virginia
Warrenton, VA USA
Editor, The Matthew Poole Project

"Let your Morning Thoughts, and your last Evening Thoughts, be what shall become of you to all Eternity." -- Matthew Poole

I think you are right. Dreams often reflect our desperate sinfullness. At least mine sometimes do. I think this is a reason why it is so important to make a covenant with our eyes, because those images linger and come up when we are least able to suppress them.

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R.Vic Bottomly
Providence Reformed Baptist Church, Tacoma, WA

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I agree that it is wrong to mold our conception of God (Father, Son, or Holy Spirit) into a visual image in our mind which we think of as real. But I would expect that every Christian has some vague associations of Jesus with a concrete image of person-hood which one might innocently conjure up in a subconscious dream state.

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Brad
Deacon
Redeemer Church
Jackson, MS

Does the phrase, 'inwardly in our mind' equal dreams or vision? Can we differ between bad dreams and good dreams? I am not following the reasoning underneath this Q109. And when you said the following:

I trust that God's Word and Spirit will convict him of the truth that we are not to make mental representations of Christ,

Do you mean picturing him with long flowing dark hair and blue eyes?

There is a tremendous use of dreasm/visions that are 100% positive in the Holy Writ. WHich to me says they are not sinful in and of themselves. Not needing repentance of. But, here is the famous but, In the writ God ALWAYS confirmed the vision/ dream with reality.

Acts 2:17
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Acts 9;10:10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.

Acts 10;17 Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,

Acts 22;17 And it came to pass, that, when I was come again to Jerusalem, even while I prayed in the temple, I was in a trance;

Rev 1;10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet


Dreams would be considered the same as prophecy. If they come true, they are real and 100% not sinful. If they dont, then they are false...


The OP is specifically spakign about dreams and evangelism. Dreams/visions cannot be narrowly defined as while sleeping. Promtings of the Spirit to evangelize would fit this.

WHen Carey 'thought' of evangelizing the heathen noone was sent to tell him. The Holy Spirit spoke to his inner mind...

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N. Robert; Trinity Reformed Church RCA, Holland MI

Once in a while you can get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right."