> Hypothetical <

Let us say that you and your family are doing missions in a place like Pakistan. Your home is attacked by a group of angry Muslims with the intent on beheading or some other gruesome violent end for you and your family.

Where do you draw the line? Would it be moral to defend your family or would it be a witness to the cause of Christ to sacrifice yourself and your family?

__________________
Joshua Morrison
- Facebook - - The North American Reformed Seminary - - Memoirs of a Jungle Servant -

Would it have been moral for Lot to allow the men of Sodom to come into his house?

__________________
Benjamin P. Glaser
Pittsburgh, PA,
Fairmount ARP Church
Candidate Under Care Pittsburgh Theological Seminary & Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary
"The word of God is the measure of faith, and that is true saving faith, which believeth all things which are revealed, and in that manner wherein they are revealed..."
-- John Ball, Scottish Puritan (1585-1640)

This has been addressed recently in two other posts. Can anyone link them?



It is moral to defend one's family. But also, we have the examples of the martyrs in the coliseum who sang hymns while the lions attacked. Still trying to reconcile this.

__________________
Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

Not even remotely the same situation. IMHO.

__________________
Benjamin P. Glaser
Pittsburgh, PA,
Fairmount ARP Church
Candidate Under Care Pittsburgh Theological Seminary & Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary
"The word of God is the measure of faith, and that is true saving faith, which believeth all things which are revealed, and in that manner wherein they are revealed..."
-- John Ball, Scottish Puritan (1585-1640)

Yes I agree that they are different. How different, I am not sure. If assaulted as a citizen I will pound the guy's face. If asaulted in the pulpit I think I might not.

__________________
Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

Agreed but the floor of the coliseum is not the pulpit.

__________________
Benjamin P. Glaser
Pittsburgh, PA,
Fairmount ARP Church
Candidate Under Care Pittsburgh Theological Seminary & Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary
"The word of God is the measure of faith, and that is true saving faith, which believeth all things which are revealed, and in that manner wherein they are revealed..."
-- John Ball, Scottish Puritan (1585-1640)

That is another question... What if you are being assaulted for pulpit while not being at the pulpit?

__________________
Joshua Morrison
- Facebook - - The North American Reformed Seminary - - Memoirs of a Jungle Servant -

So, were the roman martyrs sinful for being passive?

If they were obligated to fight but just figured "what's the use" then they were not doing their duty. They could have clawed and bit some of the lions to death and died in resistance rather than just allowing themselves to be killed - which would normally be looked at as sin.

__________________
Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

I do not even want to surmise or question the motives of those in the coliseum. I am just saying that it is not even remotely applicable to J.D.'s original question.

__________________
Benjamin P. Glaser
Pittsburgh, PA,
Fairmount ARP Church
Candidate Under Care Pittsburgh Theological Seminary & Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary
"The word of God is the measure of faith, and that is true saving faith, which believeth all things which are revealed, and in that manner wherein they are revealed..."
-- John Ball, Scottish Puritan (1585-1640)

I think it is VERY applicable. The roman soldiers drag you and your family into a pit to be eaten by lions. DO you resist or sing a hymn passively while your family gets chewed on?

__________________
Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

How are the Roman Soldiers equitable to the angry mob which Jd referenced in the original post?

__________________
Benjamin P. Glaser
Pittsburgh, PA,
Fairmount ARP Church
Candidate Under Care Pittsburgh Theological Seminary & Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary
"The word of God is the measure of faith, and that is true saving faith, which believeth all things which are revealed, and in that manner wherein they are revealed..."
-- John Ball, Scottish Puritan (1585-1640)

Both are aggresive, antagonistic to the Gospel and might drag you off and kill you.

How are they different? Because one is the arm of an evil civil state?

__________________
Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

Those in the pit were sentenced to that lot by the State. This must be understood if you are going to compare and contrast.

__________________
Chris Mangum
Presbyterian Reformed Church of Charlotte
student, GPTS
.357 Mangum

He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God.
~ II Samuel 23:3b

Those killed in the middle east and other repressive places are sentenced my local Mulahs or tribal leaders. How much difference does it make?


If an angry mob came atcha, you must resist?

But if that angry crowd was the family members of one of the 500 feudal tribal warlords of Somalia led by some mad mullah and came at you after the mad mullah incited them, then no resistance?

__________________
Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

It depends on if it is legal to defend your life and your families life.
I think we can learn a great deal from the example of Esther. The Jews did not take up arms to defend themselves until a law was passed that they could do so.

__________________
Larry Bray
Elder - Reformed Presbyterian Church of Boothwyn, PCA
Boothwyn, PA - http://www.rpcb.org/
Free Online Reformed Seminary - http://www.tnars.net
-----------------------------------------------------
“The Christian must not be of such a complying nature as to cut the coat of his profession according to the fashion of the times…" - William Gurnall

Interesting Larry. Can you elaborate more?

__________________
Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

I'll try.
This is one of the questions that i posted on a while ago, and it really got me thinking.

Under the official persecution of the Church it would have been illegal for Christians to take up arms against the state. Therefore in such a situation we have no biblical warrant to defend ourselves since God, in His providence, has put us in such a state.

This is seen by example in the book of Esther. We see that the people of God did not take up arms to defend themselves until a law was passed allowing them to do so.

__________________
Larry Bray
Elder - Reformed Presbyterian Church of Boothwyn, PCA
Boothwyn, PA - http://www.rpcb.org/
Free Online Reformed Seminary - http://www.tnars.net
-----------------------------------------------------
“The Christian must not be of such a complying nature as to cut the coat of his profession according to the fashion of the times…" - William Gurnall

Okay, how do we distinguish between mob actions and gov't sanctioned persecution in places like Indoensia where restrictive laws are used as covers by which angry mobs burn churches (noting some legal technicality), or where places where Shariah law is taking hold and the region is divided between civil powers and Islamic clerics?

__________________
Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

I watched the movie "The Mission" and that got me thinking about this question. While my question is out of the context of the movie, in the movie you have a former mercenary turned monk Mendoza who wants to defend a tribe of people he used to hunt for slaves, then you have Father Gabriel who takes a pacifist position. <Spoiler> They all died. So the movie begs the question, who made the right choice.

You have people who didn't defend themselves in the face of a mob, such as the "Auca Five" and now you have the church flourishing.

I was just thinking about how that would apply with your family and your duty as the head of the household.

<am I making sense, I am really tired... I hate insomnia...>

__________________
Joshua Morrison
- Facebook - - The North American Reformed Seminary - - Memoirs of a Jungle Servant -