Confessionals Seeking the Seeker Sensitive

ChristopherPaul · #1 (**permalink**) 01-31-2006, 02:27 PM

[align=center]"œIf you have to have a carnival to get them to church, you need to keep having a carnival to get them back."

--CH Spurgeon[/align]

[align=center]"We Presbyterians can take some solace in our knowledge that we will be the first into heaven. The Bible is very clear about that fact. It says, "the dead in Christ shall rise first".

--common joke usually at Presbyterian's expense[/align]

How are confessional orthodox churches to expect the massive amount of Christians who are flocking to the carnival churches (otherwise known as seeker friendly) to come to a confessional church or stay at a confessional church upon visiting?

In other words, Genuine believers are all over the denominational map from high liturgy to no liturgy. How is a confessional church to expect a member of a seeker sensitive church to visit and remain when most of these seeker-style Christians are clueless as to why confessional churches have Presbyterian governments, why they recite prayers, sing hymns, wear robes, baptize infants, etc?

From my experience, the primary reason someone would leave a modern and hip carnival service for a conservative service would be due to prior discoveries and convictions obtained while still at the carnival church.

It appears that a prerequisite requirement for attending a confessional church is either an upbringing in a similar style church or an education in doctrine - especially ecclesiology. If someone has no understanding of history, or doctrine, but confesses Jesus is Lord and savior and prefers a trendy worship style with entertaining drama clips and motivational pastoral speeches, then why would they visit a confessional reformed church and conclude with something to the effect of, 'yep, that is certainly much better [more orthodox] than the church I attend'?

What do we do to reach, not the seeker per se, but these seeker church Christians?

Also, I would appreciate some exegesis and commentary on the seeker-friendly proof text:

1 Corinthians 9:19-23

Quote:

For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them.
To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law.
To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.
To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some.
I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.

youthevang · #2 (**permalink**) 01-31-2006, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ChristopherPaul
What do we do to reach, not the seeker per se, but these seeker church Christians?

I believe it starts with a clear understanding of God and His attributes. If one's understanding of God is "out there," then everything else goes down hill from there. But this is just my

.

Puritan Sailor · #3 (**permalink**) 01-31-2006, 04:18 PM

Just continue to preach Christ, be freindly and compassionate, and the true sheep will come when they hear their Shepard's voice.

wsw201 · #4 (**permalink**) 01-31-2006, 04:57 PM

What I have found is that folks who do come from a "seeker" church are looking for more than what the church they came from had to offer. Basically they had grown out of the seeker church and were looking for something more substantial. I don't think we should do anything different regarding our worship or how we do things and it does take time for seeker folks to get use to it.

Overall, we have to remember that it is God who gives the increase and it is not through a snappy marketing scheme.

What I find really interesting is how many folks at least check out a Reformed church after listening to RC Sproul Sr. on the radio!

Civbert · #5 (**permalink**) 01-31-2006, 05:51 PM

The Internet ... seriously. Talking to people online, sharing the Gospel, talking about the differences in reformed doctrines, just letting people know about the importance of 'doctrine' - these things can make a difference. Real "seekers" will seek and not assume that any church that can put on a show for them is giving them a complete understanding of the Gospel. If they are seeking - they will be studying the Word, and asking questions, and God willing, will eventually find the beautify of reformed doctrine. The Internet is one path to learning about the differences between different views on Christianity.

Robin · #6 (**permalink**) 02-01-2006, 12:57 AM

Chris,

Believe it or not....God calls His own to himself.

I was in a seeker-type church and out of the blue one day, I began to feel fed-up with all the blather, distraction and hype for things other than the knowledge of God.

I gradually became bugged by the man-centered teaching and sought classes/books leading to The Reformation, quite on my own. One thing I heard was people disparage this guy named "Calvin" and thought what is that about? It was fortunate that the Internet had all sorts of source documents for Calvin.

I endured the idiocy of well-meaning but undisciplined & irresponsible pastors; the scorn and confusion of old "Christian" friends and relatives who thought I was getting "way too serious about the Bible"; the pain of loneliness and heartache of perhaps never finding a church that took the Scriptures as (at least) seriously as I did; persecution from an unbelieving spouse. All were "tests" from the Lord. (Which were actually disciplines.)

Talk about purpose driven. I was driven to study Scripture - desperately searching for the truths of the Gospel and what Christianity is really about. No class, pep-talk, motivational plan needed. (God knows I failed in those classes, anyway.) By God's grace, I found clues to the right path via the dead-teachers, first: CS Lewis; Augustine; Machen; Calvin, Etc. Then, finally, God provided a truly solid church. (It was a very long time of searching.)

Reflecting....I was definitely NOT the seeker. God sought me out --- more like "arrested" me dead in my tracks. Pulled-me-over in the midst of sin and the world. Bam! Game-over.

Jesus really meant what he said: "I will build my church..."

Hallelujah!

Forever Grateful .....

Robin

Robin · #7 (**permalink**) 02-01-2006, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by youthevang

Quote:

Originally posted by ChristopherPaul
What do we do to reach, not the seeker per se, but these seeker church Christians?

I believe it starts with a clear understanding of God and His attributes.

Josh, is right-on!

This is what begins to melt the fog of idolatrous thinking for a "seeker."

r.

Bladestunner316 · #8 (**permalink**) 02-01-2006, 02:02 AM

So is the term 'purpose driven' replacing 'free will' :P

Robin · #9 (**permalink**) 02-02-2006, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bladestunner316
So is the term 'purpose driven' replacing 'free will' :P

I think you're onto something, Blade.

r.

ChristopherPaul · #10 (**permalink**) 02-02-2006, 09:53 AM

I think my question is ultimately geared towards how does the confessional church keep those who have not felt the "fed-up" feeling that is common among those who make the transition? Or should this not even be a concern?

This past July, I just left the seeker church I where I was a member and small group leader for four years. I still have many friends there.

My closest friend is actually on the verge of embracing Calvinism. I discovered the reformed doctrines while still attending the seeker church and did not see it obvious to leave right away - it took time. Orthodox Soteriology does not (or at least did not for me) immediately cause one to feel they must leave their church. It is one's ecclesiology which is driven by their Soteriology that will cause a change in desire.

The reason I am concerned about his topic is due to my inviting my best friend to my church this past Lord's day. He is learning so much and longs for solid biblical preaching, but does not have any understanding of the covenant structure of scripture, the WCF, or the biblical form of church government and church practice.

So I asked him what he thought of my church and basically in not so blunt of terms, he thought it was extremely boring and much of it reminded him of a Roman Catholic service. He is used to more charismatic speakers (entertainers - he admits this). He prefers the modern full rock style band worship music, the casual dress, the non regimented structure of the seeker churches.

So in my friends case, he is seeing the truth of grace, but is totally turned off by the style of worship.

If he did not have me explaining things to him, I don't know why he would even consider coming back.

Me Died Blue · #11 (**permalink**) 02-02-2006, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ChristopherPaul
The reason I am concerned about his topic is due to my inviting my best friend to my church this past Lord's day. He is learning so much and longs for solid biblical preaching, but does not have any understanding of the covenant structure of scripture, the WCF, or the biblical form of church government and church practice.

So I asked him what he thought of my church and basically in not so blunt of terms, he thought it was extremely boring and much of it reminded him of a Roman Catholic service. He is used to more charismatic speakers (entertainers - he admits this). He prefers the modern full rock style band worship music, the casual dress, the non regimented structure of the seeker churches.

I can largely relate right now, with regard to a friend at Rhodes.

ChristopherPaul · #12 (**permalink**) 02-02-2006, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Me Died Blue

Quote:

Originally posted by ChristopherPaul
The reason I am concerned about his topic is due to my inviting my best friend to my church this past Lord's day. He is learning so much and longs for solid biblical preaching, but does not have any understanding of the covenant structure of scripture, the WCF, or the biblical form of church government and church practice.

So I asked him what he thought of my church and basically in not so blunt of terms, he thought it was extremely boring and much of it reminded him of a Roman Catholic service. He is used to more charismatic speakers (entertainers - he admits this). He prefers the modern full rock style band worship music, the casual dress, the non regimented structure of the seeker churches.

I can largely relate right now, with regard to a friend at Rhodes.

So how do we deal with this?

Should we just expect that those who come to our churches are to either a). be raised with such style and preference, or b). are to come with a prior conviction and therefore knowledge of what is orthodox (as in my case), or c). must have a friend who is available to explain why such style is more orthodox than the trendy entertaining style they like (as in my friends case)?

Don't get me wrong, whenever my church does anything that remotely looks like seeker sensitive, I cringe.

One thing the reformation did lead to was a disrespect for unity in the extreme opposite end of the pendulum. At the one end is the EOC and RCC where they maintain unity and sacrifice orthodoxy. To this we rightly broke away. At the other end are the churches that split and split again even though they agree with the fundamentals. It is as easy and non-convicting as opening up some new enterprise. So we now have orthodox churches that "compete" with a mentality that is driven today that says, "if you don't like it, find something that caters to you or hey, make up something new that meets your requirements."

crhoades · #13 (**permalink**) 02-02-2006, 10:39 AM

One thing our pastor is now putting together is kind of a "This is what you just experienced" type of cd. It will walk a person through the reformed view of worship, why word and sacrament, etc. with an emphasis on God-centeredness. He then is going to make a series of lectures on each point in particular for going deeper on what it means to be presbyterian etc. We hope to have these available on our website and also on .mp3 and audio cd as well for people who have questions or particularly in your case that you could hand to your friend or as you have been doing, explain it to them.

I think what you guys are saying (and I have experienced as well) is that it all makes sense when there is a point of reference for the person to hang their hat on - whether from upbringing, reading, Bible, inner desire. Reformed worship does look foreign in today's landscape. Believe it or not that is also a draw.

Ivan · #14 (**permalink**) 02-02-2006, 11:13 AM

....And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.

There's the answer. Trust God, my friends.

ChristopherPaul · #15 (**permalink**) 02-02-2006, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by crhoades
One thing our pastor is now putting together is kind of a "This is what you just experienced" type of cd. It will walk a person through the reformed view of worship, why word and sacrament, etc. with an emphasis on God-centeredness. He then is going to make a series of lectures on each point in particular for going deeper on what it means to be presbyterian etc. We hope to have these available on our website and also on .mp3 and audio cd as well for people who have questions or particularly in your case that you could hand to your friend or as you have been doing, explain it to them.

I think what you guys are saying (and I have experienced as well) is that it all makes sense when there is a point of reference for the person to hang their hat on - whether from upbringing, reading, Bible, inner desire. Reformed worship does look foreign in today's landscape. Believe it or not that is also a draw.

This is an excellent suggestion!

It is important that the point is made that confessionals do things for a reason. If this is made known and more information made available, then it is a great way to give a defense, per se, of why the church is the way it is. This act alone will, for some, be in itself an encouraging insight as to how important truth is to a church. In contrast if the seeker Christian were to ask why their church does things the way it does, they will most likely get a bunch of market driven responses over a Biblical defense.

This is a great idea and I will pass it along to my pastor, thanks Chris!

ChristopherPaul · #16 (**permalink**) 02-02-2006, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ivan
....And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.

There's the answer. Trust God, my friends.

Yes, I realize this is an appropriate answer. So should Chris Rhodes' church not make such resources available and just trust God to send the right people at the right time?

It begs too many questions.

The fact is, their are genuine Christians in these non confessional churches who are not convicted to go anywhere else. Being that there are so many types of churches, why would they stay at a confessional church upon visiting? As my "in the know" friend said, the service looked Romish and felt boring. Why would he stay?

ChristopherPaul · #17 (**permalink**) 02-02-2006, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ChristopherPaul
Also, I would appreciate some exegesis and commentary on the seeker-friendly proof text:

1 Corinthians 9:19-23

Quote:

For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them.
To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law.
To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.
To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some.
I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.

Anyone want to add some light to this?

Robin · #18 (**permalink**) 02-04-2006, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ChristopherPaul

Quote:

Originally posted by Ivan
....And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.

There's the answer. Trust God, my friends.

Yes, I realize this is an appropriate answer. So should Chris Rhodes' church not make such resources available and just trust God to send the right people at the right time?

It begs too many questions.

The fact is, their are genuine Christians in these non confessional churches who are not convicted to go anywhere else. Being that there are so many types of churches, why would they stay at a confessional church upon visiting? As my "in the know" friend said, the service looked Romish and felt boring. Why would he stay?

Chris,

Stand-fast....the reaction of your friend is common. Typical.

Our church explains much of this stuff via the continued (and routine) teaching of the word & sacraments; the confessions and the ongoing CT theme in the preaching.

It does take time. It looks "Roman Catholic" -- it might be time to emphasize (teach) that the one-TRUE-catholic (small c) church has always prevailed -- and it's OK to take back the word "catholic" and restore it to its proper place in the discussion.

The power of God is not evident in loud music and excitations. It is in the Word, rightly preached; the sacraments rightly administered. The mundane, pedstrian and tedious actions of reading, preaching, hearing, eating & drinking and praying.

The true sheep really will come around in the end. Honest.

Robin

Robin · #19 (**permalink**) 02-04-2006, 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ChristopherPaul

Quote:

Originally posted by ChristopherPaul
Also, I would appreciate some exegesis and commentary on the seeker-friendly proof text:

1 Corinthians 9:19-23

Quote:

For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them.
To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law.
To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.
To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some.
I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.

Anyone want to add some light to this?

Uh-oh....this is the PD excuse to use things like "hula worship" et al. The Purpose/Seeker curriculum (and it IS a subscribed/franchised package fed to anyone paying for it) seeks to justify any/every ungodly/worldly method to evangelize.

What gets forgotten however, Paul's statement here IN CONTEXT refer to his preaching the Gospel and admonitions against idolatries (which ironically, are pretty much the same as the idolatry in seeker churches! Go back and start at the beginning of 1 Corinthians and see how similar the problems were for them compared to what we have today: celebrity-teachers; rampant idolatry and sensuality in the church.)

There is a lot there. Then read 1 Cor. 8 all the way through chapter 10 then stop and see if you get a "different spin" on the use of that be all things to all people.

Take-up and R E A D, Chris. It's all there.

Robin

Puritan Sailor · #20 (**permalink**) 02-04-2006, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ChristopherPaul

Quote:

Originally posted by Ivan
....And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.

There's the answer. Trust God, my friends.

Yes, I realize this is an appropriate answer. So should Chris Rhodes' church not make such resources available and just trust God to send the right people at the right time?

It begs too many questions.

The fact is, their are genuine Christians in these non confessional churches who are not convicted to go anywhere else. Being that there are so many types of churches, why would they stay at a confessional church upon visiting? As my "in the know" friend said, the service looked Romish and felt boring. Why would he stay?

I think your heart is in the right place. But remember how your own journey took place. It took time. And it took study on your part. The best thing you can do is to help your freinds think things through. Don't try to sell them on the 5 points yet. Just ask them, "What does this passage mean, or this passege, etc." Make them think through themselves. When they ask you what you believe about an issue, tell them straight from Scripture, in easy terms, and never argue or raise your voice. You can try to recommend books if they are readers. But most of the time you just have to keep planting seeds, continue to be freinds, and build them up as opportunities allows. If they are true believers, then the implications of the gospel will work themselves out over time. It may be God's will to leave some folks in those seeker-sensative churches so that they can be God's means of infecting them with the gospel and reaching other people who would never step foot in a confessional church. Consider it an inside job