Black, White, and Reformed

R. Scott Clark · #1 (**permalink**) 01-03-2008, 05:31 PM

Semper Fidelis · #2 (**permalink**) 01-03-2008, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Here’s an even more radical idea than some of those put forward in the discussion at Reformingchurches.org. Rather than discussing which traditional “white” and “black” hymns and songs to use in black churches, why don’t black and white churches together abandon ALL the extra-canonical hymns? I told you it was a radical idea.

I assume you're talking about Wesley's hymns here right? Gregorian chant?

Great article from a number of standpoints. Not sure if this thread will form into an EP debate or not. I want to

from the outset that we discuss this according to how we can unite as Christians in worship.

For all the debates about "psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs" being a commission to write new songs to the Lord, there is an inherent problem that the forms chosen by the songwriters reflect a certain cultural bias and end up segregating the Church.

I got an e-mail to our Church contact form the other day from a Japanese woman that loved Black Gospel music and asked if our Church sang that. No, said I, but we preach the Gospel here. It was unfortunate to me that she desired the musical form before she cared what we believe. {Incidentally, I have always loved Black Gospel music - at least the older stuff.}

I really think the homogeneity of most congregations really masks the problem that all these forms cause because congregations seem united on Sunday mornings. Try living in a culture that is completely foreign and you'll start to sense how odd it is to port American praise choruses into that setting.

I've come to the conclusion that I'm not a rabid EP guy but would prefer EP in Churches simply to remove that issue as a point of dividing the Body of Christ.

VirginiaHuguenot · #3 (**permalink**) 01-03-2008, 05:57 PM

Here is a relevant previous thread:

Reformed Worship neither white, Genevan, nor Northern European

SRoper · #4 (**permalink**) 01-03-2008, 09:34 PM

I don't see how canonical hymnody helps with the cultural divide. You may no longer have our hymns and their hymns, but you still have our tunes and their tunes. In addition you still have to sing in some language which is also going to divide.

Puritan Sailor · #5 (**permalink**) 01-03-2008, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SRoper

I don't see how canonical hymnody helps with the cultural divide. You may no longer have our hymns and their hymns, but you still have our tunes and their tunes. In addition you still have to sing in some language which is also going to divide.

That's the real issue, cultural music style. Many of our non-canonical hymns are still the same. But they sing them much differently even without musical instruments.

panta dokimazete · #6 (**permalink**) 01-03-2008, 09:54 PM

EP or not, you'll have cultural musical style.

DMcFadden · #7 (**permalink**) 01-03-2008, 10:11 PM

Interestingly, the quick embrace of praise choruses by evangelical congregations has seemed to have run its course. Most of the trend gurus have observed a return to traditional hymnody, albeit with a bit more comtemporizing of the tunes.

I am quite new to the Psalter but have been moved to tears by listening to Psalms on CD using the 1650 Scottish Metrical Psalter. I would happily embrace EP if not for the loss of the name of Jesus. [not meant as offering a theological position on the issue of EP; merely an honest statement of preference at this point]

panta dokimazete · #8 (**permalink**) 01-03-2008, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DMcFadden

Interestingly, the quick embrace of praise choruses by evangelical congregations has seemed to have run its course. Most of the trend gurus have observed a return to traditional hymnody, albeit with a bit more comtemporizing of the tunes.

I have seen this trend around - anybody have any articles?

R. Scott Clark · #9 (**permalink**) 01-04-2008, 05:55 PM

Dennis,

Every time you sing the name "Yahweh" or LORD you are singing the name of Jesus! Yeshua or Jesus simply means (Matt 1:21) Yahweh saves (his people).

The Psalter is replete with the "name of Jesus." The Apostles found the "name of Jesus" in Ps 110: Yahweh says to Adoni, sit at my right hand." It quotes Ps 110:1, 4 20-22 times in the NT. The apostles were not at all troubled by this question because it likely never occurred to them.

rsc

Quote:

Originally Posted by DMcFadden

Interestingly, the quick embrace of praise choruses by evangelical congregations has seemed to have run its course. Most of the trend gurus have observed a return to traditional hymnody, albeit with a bit more comtemporizing of the tunes.

I am quite new to the Psalter but have been moved to tears by listening to Psalms on CD using the 1650 Scottish Metrical Psalter. I would happily embrace EP if not for the loss of the name of Jesus. [not meant as offering a theological position on the issue of EP; merely an honest statement of preference at this point]

R. Scott Clark · #10 (**permalink**) 01-04-2008, 05:58 PM

As to culture, insofar as we're all human and finite (and we are) then culture in part of the package, but there's no reason why we cannot sing God's Word together in a variety of tunes that reflect the diversity of a given culture. If the early Latin and Greek-speaking Christians could adapt the Hebrew (and Greek, in the LXX) Psalter to their use, there's no reason why we cannot do the same. The NT churches were culturally diverse, but inasmuch as they had a common language (Greek) they were able to sing together. Today, English is the universal language or close to it. Where that doesn't work, use a common language. It's not insoluble.

rsc

Gloria · #11 (**permalink**) 01-04-2008, 06:16 PM

This debate is never going to end. Interesting article though.

jaybird0827 · #12 (**permalink**) 01-04-2008, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R. Scott Clark

On the HB.

rsc

Great article, Dr. Clark - describes something I've been wanting to see for a long time now.

Also, I liked how you said, "Reformed theology is much more than the five points of Dort."

Absolutely!

DMcFadden · #13 (**permalink**) 01-04-2008, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by panta dokimazete

Quote:

Originally Posted by DMcFadden

Interestingly, the quick embrace of praise choruses by evangelical congregations has seemed to have run its course. Most of the trend gurus have observed a return to traditional hymnody, albeit with a bit more comtemporizing of the tunes.

I have seen this trend around - anybody have any articles?

Here is one reference:

"Music in the Christian church is a glissando of opinion. Several decades ago, traditional church music gave way in some denominations to the praise music format: up-tempo, contemporary message and lyrics, supported by vocalists and a praise band. Today, many mainline denominations are increasingly involved in this worship style. But many of the first ones, primarily Evangelical denominations, who embraced this praise style have rethought it and are returning to traditional hymns of the past, believing their lyrics to carry the theology of the faith and serve as teaching moments. They will up-tempo their traditional melodies, add instruments and dynamic vocals. It is curious that mainline and Evangelical congregations are passing each other musically, but going in opposite directions."
MondayMorningInsight.com > Religion Trends on the Horizon for 2008

DMcFadden · #14 (**permalink**) 01-04-2008, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R. Scott Clark

Dennis,

Every time you sing the name "Yahweh" or LORD you are singing the name of Jesus! Yeshua or Jesus simply means (Matt 1:21) Yahweh saves (his people).

The Psalter is replete with the "name of Jesus." The Apostles found the "name of Jesus" in Ps 110: Yahweh says to Adoni, sit at my right hand." It quotes Ps 110:1, 4 20-22 times in the NT. The apostles were not at all troubled by this question because it likely never occurred to them.

rsc

Of course you are correct. I recognize the linguistic/theological connections. But, for someone raised on evangelical hymnody, there is theological richness in that form that holds an emotional attachment for me. However, I was blown away by the power of the Scottish Metrical Psalter! Wow!

SRoper · #15 (**permalink**) 01-05-2008, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R. Scott Clark

The NT churches were culturally diverse, but inasmuch as they had a common language (Greek) they were able to sing together. Today, English is the universal language or close to it. Where that doesn't work, use a common language. It's not insoluble.

That's interesting. Before I read your comment, I had just assumed that the eschatological praising God in every language was the ideal for the present age. Since we don't have the gift of interpretation, we would have to be content with dividing based on language (at least at the level of worship service, not even necessarily at the level of congregation). Are you suggesting that the ideal for public worship today is praising God in the lingua franca as far as it's possible?