The PuritanBoard  

Go Back   The PuritanBoard > The Church > Evangelism, Missions and the Persecuted Church

Evangelism, Missions and the Persecuted Church Discussions about Evangelism, the Church and missions, personal missions experiences and the Persecuted Church throughout the world.

Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 07-15-2009, 08:24 PM
he beholds's Avatar
Puritanboard Doctor
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: va
Posts: 6,231
Thanks: 3,502
Thanked 1,483 Times in 888 Posts
An analogy that I appreciated about evangelism vs. judging

At Bible Study last night another lady in the group shared this analogy:

If you saw someone drowning, you wouldn't just say, "Hey, you are drowning." So it goes with those lost in their sin.

To squash an argument that may come--I know how our brains work here--I do think if the person didn't believe they were drowning, they may not accept help, so declaring the problem might be necessary. But we would never think it acceptable to ONLY tell the drowning person of his imminent death. However, I know as far as other people's sins go, I am often very willing to stop at that.

What think ye?
__________________
Shalom,
jessi
PCA
Steelers fan exiled to Virginia



“Whatever your heart clings to and confides in, that is really your God.”
Martin Luther
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 07-15-2009, 08:33 PM
Theognome's Avatar
Puritanboard Graduate
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 3,218
Thanks: 617
Thanked 1,916 Times in 851 Posts
It's a poor analogy in this sense- you don't need the Holy Spirit to awaken you to the fact that if drowning, you would need help and know it. The Gospel is, in effect, telling someone that they are drowning, but the analogy lends to Arminianism in as much as it implies that there is more you, as an evangel, can do. Telling the drowning person he needs to be saved is all you can do: Only God can make him grab the life ring.

Theognome
__________________
Bill Cunningham
Covenant Reformed Church, URC
Kansas City
There are three kinds of people- those who can count, and those who can't.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 07-15-2009, 08:36 PM
Puritanboard Sophomore
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 913
Thanks: 160
Thanked 169 Times in 117 Posts
I think C.S. Lewis used an analogy like that, though I'm not sure if it were on this topic.
__________________
Steven Nemes
Phoenix, AZ

Good philosophy must exist, if for no other reason, because bad philosophy must be answered - C.S. Lewis
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 07-15-2009, 08:38 PM
toddpedlar's Avatar
Iron Dramatist
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Decorah, IA
Posts: 6,252
Thanks: 247
Thanked 2,368 Times in 1,238 Posts
A further problem with this analogy is that they're not drowning. They're dead.
__________________
Todd K. Pedlar
member, First Congregational Church, (CCCC) Cresco, IA
http://inprincipiodeus.solideogloria.com
http://puritanwisdom.blogspot.com

"As God did not at first choose you because you were high, He will not now forsake you because you are low."
John Flavel in Keeping the Heart



Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to toddpedlar For This Useful Post:
Montanablue (07-15-2009), steven-nemes (07-15-2009)
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 07-15-2009, 09:19 PM
py3ak's Avatar
Use Bat Lip Balm
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 6,658
Thanks: 191
Thanked 2,436 Times in 1,347 Posts
The point of the analogy isn't to set out the condition of the sinner, nearly as much that given that the sinner is in a desperate condition, we can't content ourselves with remarking, "Hey, you're in a desperate condition."
__________________
Ruben
Moderator
F.P.C.I.
Indiana

Vanities and disguises have covered us, and thereby we are naked; licenciousness hath inflam'd us, and thereby we are frozen; voluptuousness hath fed us, and thereby we are sterved, the fancies and traditions of men have taught and instructed us, and thereby we are ignorant.
John Donne


Board Rules - Signature Requirements - Suggestions?

Calvinistas Conversando
Teología en Mexico
The Howling Wilderness
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
The Following User Says Thank You to py3ak For This Useful Post:
Montanablue (07-15-2009)
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 07-15-2009, 09:23 PM
CharlieJ's Avatar
Puritanboard Sophomore
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Greenville, SC
Posts: 795
Thanks: 91
Thanked 495 Times in 254 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by py3ak View Post
The point of the analogy isn't to set out the condition of the sinner, nearly as much that given that the sinner is in a desperate condition, we can't content ourselves with remarking, "Hey, you're in a desperate condition."
Thank you. The analogy is quite sound when one considers the intended point of application. Analogies always fail when they are overextended.
__________________
Charlie Johnson
Downtown Presbyterian Church (PCA)
Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary, student
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 07-15-2009, 09:30 PM
toddpedlar's Avatar
Iron Dramatist
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Decorah, IA
Posts: 6,252
Thanks: 247
Thanked 2,368 Times in 1,238 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by py3ak View Post
The point of the analogy isn't to set out the condition of the sinner, nearly as much that given that the sinner is in a desperate condition, we can't content ourselves with remarking, "Hey, you're in a desperate condition."
No, I understand that. My problem is with the assumptions that underlie such an analogy. As has been pointed out already, it implies that any sinner has the power and the desire to grab for the life ring.

Clearly, the sinner is in dire straits, and should be told such.... and yes, there obviously needs to be more communication than that. However, the presentation of the gospel cannot take place without clarity on the first issue (that they are in dire straits). There is little worse than a presentation of "Christ is the answer" without telling them the question.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 07-15-2009, 09:34 PM
he beholds's Avatar
Puritanboard Doctor
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: va
Posts: 6,231
Thanks: 3,502
Thanked 1,483 Times in 888 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theognome View Post
It's a poor analogy in this sense- you don't need the Holy Spirit to awaken you to the fact that if drowning, you would need help and know it. The Gospel is, in effect, telling someone that they are drowning, but the analogy lends to Arminianism in as much as it implies that there is more you, as an evangel, can do. Telling the drowning person he needs to be saved is all you can do: Only God can make him grab the life ring.

Theognome
Right, but just judging a sinner for his sins is not all that we can do. Doesn't faith come by the hearing of the word? I am sure God could save people without the word being preached, but He chooses to use people to bring the word to others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by py3ak View Post
The point of the analogy isn't to set out the condition of the sinner, nearly as much that given that the sinner is in a desperate condition, we can't content ourselves with remarking, "Hey, you're in a desperate condition."
That was exactly the point! And even more specifically, we cannot be satisfied to just point out sins, we need to point to the solution!

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieJ View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by py3ak View Post
The point of the analogy isn't to set out the condition of the sinner, nearly as much that given that the sinner is in a desperate condition, we can't content ourselves with remarking, "Hey, you're in a desperate condition."
Thank you. The analogy is quite sound when one considers the intended point of application. Analogies always fail when they are overextended.
Good point. We could try to make this analogy say any number of things...I am glad you got what I appreciated in it!

-----Added 7/15/2009 at 09:34:36 EST-----

Quote:
Originally Posted by toddpedlar View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by py3ak View Post
The point of the analogy isn't to set out the condition of the sinner, nearly as much that given that the sinner is in a desperate condition, we can't content ourselves with remarking, "Hey, you're in a desperate condition."
No, I understand that. My problem is with the assumptions that underlie such an analogy. As has been pointed out already, it implies that any sinner has the power and the desire to grab for the life ring.
This analogy speaks not at all of the sinner/drowner grabbing the ring.


Clearly, the sinner is in dire straits, and should be told such.... and yes, there obviously needs to be more communication than that. However, the presentation of the gospel cannot take place without clarity on the first issue (that they are in dire straits). There is little worse than a presentation of "Christ is the answer" without telling them the question.
Which is why I added my disclaimer. The OP clearly says that the sinner does need to know he sins. I don't see how you see this as saying "Christ is the answer," without sharing the question. The point is, we should not stop at the question.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 07-15-2009, 11:44 PM
Pergamum's Avatar
The MacDaddy
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 10,394
Thanks: 2,680
Thanked 2,830 Times in 1,466 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by toddpedlar View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by py3ak View Post
The point of the analogy isn't to set out the condition of the sinner, nearly as much that given that the sinner is in a desperate condition, we can't content ourselves with remarking, "Hey, you're in a desperate condition."
No, I understand that. My problem is with the assumptions that underlie such an analogy. As has been pointed out already, it implies that any sinner has the power and the desire to grab for the life ring.

Clearly, the sinner is in dire straits, and should be told such.... and yes, there obviously needs to be more communication than that. However, the presentation of the gospel cannot take place without clarity on the first issue (that they are in dire straits). There is little worse than a presentation of "Christ is the answer" without telling them the question.
Maybe we could change the analogy and make the drowning person a zombie.

Because a zombie is dead and still can move....WOW, now that's freaky! Then, the Holy Spirit might desire to re-animate and change that zombie back into a normal person.


Then, once that zombie turned back into a normal person, they are then immune from further zombie bites and could not corpsify any longer. So, that is like perseverance of the saints.


Now THAT's a good analogy!
__________________
Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 07-16-2009, 07:23 AM
he beholds's Avatar
Puritanboard Doctor
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: va
Posts: 6,231
Thanks: 3,502
Thanked 1,483 Times in 888 Posts
When I was sharing this analogy with my husband last night, he said, "It's more likely we'll be saying, 'Hey, they're drowning.'"

This analogy isn't at all about what the drowning person must do to know Christ (grab the ring and save himself or be plucked from the water--of course, we know he must be plucked), but how we as Christians should be loving--and not merely judging--the lost. This probably spoke to me because I have a problem getting passed other people's sins.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 07-16-2009, 07:45 AM
toddpedlar's Avatar
Iron Dramatist
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Decorah, IA
Posts: 6,252
Thanks: 247
Thanked 2,368 Times in 1,238 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by he beholds View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by toddpedlar View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by py3ak View Post
The point of the analogy isn't to set out the condition of the sinner, nearly as much that given that the sinner is in a desperate condition, we can't content ourselves with remarking, "Hey, you're in a desperate condition."
No, I understand that. My problem is with the assumptions that underlie such an analogy. As has been pointed out already, it implies that any sinner has the power and the desire to grab for the life ring.
This analogy speaks not at all of the sinner/drowner grabbing the ring.


Clearly, the sinner is in dire straits, and should be told such.... and yes, there obviously needs to be more communication than that. However, the presentation of the gospel cannot take place without clarity on the first issue (that they are in dire straits). There is little worse than a presentation of "Christ is the answer" without telling them the question.
Which is why I added my disclaimer. The OP clearly says that the sinner does need to know he sins. I don't see how you see this as saying "Christ is the answer," without sharing the question. The point is, we should not stop at the question.
I wasn't saying anything about you, Jessi. I was contrasting the error of saying only "You are a sinner" vs. "Christ is the way". There is a school of thought in which Christ is presented as the solution to all life's problems, but the chief problem, that the sinner is guilty, is never brought up. My point in bringing this up is to say that the "you are a sinner" bad news MUST be presented in any evangelistic situation, or the good news is nonsensical.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.0

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:18 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.3.2 ©2009, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright © 2002-2008 PuritanBoard.com
Hosted by WebsiteMaven - helping ministries with web hosting advice, reviews, and design.
67 Westminster Abbey © Confessional Presbyterian Presses - used with permission.
Add Our Custom Button to your Google Toolbar

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69