Would it be sinful for me to attend a PCUSA church?

ABondSlaveofChristJesus · #1 (**permalink**) 11-08-2005, 09:50 PM

?

gwine · #2 (**permalink**) 11-08-2005, 10:00 PM

Are all PC-USA churches fallen?

WrittenFromUtopia · #3 (**permalink**) 11-08-2005, 10:10 PM

Why would you have to?

Me Died Blue · #4 (**permalink**) 11-08-2005, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gwine
Are all PC-USA churches fallen?

But with a Presbyterian understanding of biblical ecclesiology, is this question even the one to ask? I would say no, but that the real issue is the PCUSA as a whole. And depending on the answer to that question, I think the easiest way to then get at an answer to Tim's question would be to ask what attending a false church would mean for a person's Sabbath-keeping on that particular Lord's Day.

Craig · #5 (**permalink**) 11-08-2005, 10:43 PM

Why consider attending a PCUSA regularly? I'd rather have an unbiblical form of church gov't (which the PCUSA has, btw...they will force their will upon a session and rule against them...as evidenced by ordaining a man who denied Christ's divinity and virgin birth) with better doctrine. You would have to search really, really, really, really hard to find one PCUSA church that took the bible seriously, let alone believed it to be true.

They have allowed unbelievers in the pulpit for 80+ years...they ordain women, they don't bring up charges against homosexual clergy...they don't affirm anything particularly Christian in doctrine...are okay with abortion. Why even bother? Even if you found a pastor who was reformed in that denom, he's questionable. How could any pastor be able to allow their congregation to be part of a "church" subverting and perverting truth and undermining the faith? I would worship in a Wesleyan church before I would grace the door of a PCUSA. I would look at the LCMS before considering the PCUSA. I would consider the Southern Baptist church, for crying out loud, before I ever considered a PCUSA.

I have a very strong conviction on this, in case no one noticed.

Now: would it be sin to attend? Once? Na. Regularly? Yes. To know biblical truth and company with them, absolutely, that is sin.

gwine · #6 (**permalink**) 11-08-2005, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Me Died Blue

Quote:

Originally posted by gwine
Are all PC-USA churches fallen?

But with a Presbyterian understanding of biblical ecclesiology, is this question even the one to ask? I would say no, but that the real issue is the PCUSA as a whole. And depending on the answer to that question, I think the easiest way to then get at an answer to Tim's question would be to ask what attending a false church would mean for a person's Sabbath-keeping on that particular Lord's Day.

Perhaps my question made no sense, but I would have thought that if a particular PC-USA church was not apostate then what would be wrong with attending for a season especially if there were no other reformed churches around? But since Craig seems to think there are hardly, hardly, hardly, hardly any good ones, I will withdraw my question.

Puddleglum · #7 (**permalink**) 11-08-2005, 10:51 PM

Hmm . . . some of the local PCUSAs where I'm at are more mainstream evangelical than pure liberal. In that case, I don't think it would be wrong to go, especially if you didn't have somewhere else to go to. But if they're liberal . . . I don't think going regularly is such a great idea.

Cottonball · #8 (**permalink**) 11-08-2005, 10:59 PM

How could it ever be wrong to go to church?!

Ok, I can think of only one example: my parents, Athiests, just moved to a new town and said they want to start going to church so that they can meet people and make friends. That is wrong because it's practically mocking the purpose of church.

At the same time, maybe they're showing signs of grace that they don't even realize. I mean, since I became a Christian, I've wanted my parents to go to church, and now they're actually saying they will! Maybe if they pay attention to the service, they'll begin to learn and believe! So even their going to church could be a good thing in the end.

Craig · #9 (**permalink**) 11-08-2005, 11:06 PM

No one that I know of is saying it's wrong to go to church....I guess I wouldn't call walking into a building called the PCUSA, "Church".

Perhaps there are some generic evangelical ones out there...but folks: that is how they can appear, but that is superficial. Ironic, don't you think? Disappointment that they're superficially superficial, yet still superficial when you get down to it.

Seriously, look at the library in a PCUSA if you visit, and talk to a minister. Some of their Christianese echoes similarity, but the meaning is different.

C. Matthew McMahon · #10 (**permalink**) 11-08-2005, 11:07 PM

The PCUSA is apostate. I don't see how a church that officially denies the deity of Christ could be a good place to go to. There has to be a better church somewhere where you live to attend.

Cottonball · #11 (**permalink**) 11-08-2005, 11:19 PM

I see what you mean; a real church should celebrate baptism and the sacrament. Going to a place that doesn't do either of those would be wrong. But doesn't the PCUSA do that? Isn't it Presbyterian?

Me Died Blue · #12 (**permalink**) 11-08-2005, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Craig
Now: would it be sin to attend? Once? Na.

But again, what implications does that have for someone's Sabbath-keeping on that particular Lord's Day? If the PCUSA is in fact a false church, how would attending it one week be any different than neglecting corporate worship altogether that week?

Quote:

Originally posted by gwine

Quote:

Originally posted by Me Died Blue

Quote:

Originally posted by gwine
Are all PC-USA churches fallen?

But with a Presbyterian understanding of biblical ecclesiology, is this question even the one to ask? I would say no, but that the real issue is the PCUSA as a whole. And depending on the answer to that question, I think the easiest way to then get at an answer to Tim's question would be to ask what attending a false church would mean for a person's Sabbath-keeping on that particular Lord's Day.

Perhaps my question made no sense, but I would have thought that if a particular PC-USA church was not apostate then what would be wrong with attending for a season especially if there were no other reformed churches around? But since Craig seems to think there are hardly, hardly, hardly, hardly any good ones, I will withdraw my question.

My point is that you cannot meaningfully ask that about merely one particular congregation. If the PCUSA is a false church, then all of its congregations are false churches; likewise, if the PCUSA's denial as a whole of salvation in Christ does not render it apostate, then that denial on the part of a specific congregation of theirs would not render that congregation apostate, either.

[Edited on 11-9-2005 by Me Died Blue]

Me Died Blue · #13 (**permalink**) 11-08-2005, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cottonball
I see what you mean; a real church should celebrate baptism and the sacrament. Going to a place that doesn't do either of those would be wrong. But doesn't the PCUSA do that? Isn't it Presbyterian?

It is Presbyterian in name and ecclesiology (though even the ecclesiology is basically useless, since the PCUSA does not exercise 99% of the discipline it biblically should). But it has explicitly denied the Gospel itself, among other things.

gwine · #14 (**permalink**) 11-08-2005, 11:58 PM

Quote:

If the PCUSA is a false church, then all of its congregations are false churches

I guess I had not thought of it that way. So you are saying that even if Sam Spade at First Presbyterian (PC-USA) is a reformed 5 point Calvinist minister, and his congregation is in agreement with him, but they are staying in the PC-USA hoping against hope to change her, that they are a false church? Maybe I am being too melodramatic here, but I would like to believe that it could happen. Such is my naivete.

Pilgrim · #15 (**permalink**) 11-09-2005, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by webmaster
The PCUSA is apostate. I don't see how a church that officially denies the deity of Christ could be a good place to go to. There has to be a better church somewhere where you live to attend.

Do they officially deny the deity of Christ? Well, as a whole they certainly don't strongly affirm it, or anything else at this point. Ordaining those who deny it (which they've been doing since the '20's), the virgin birth and other truths could be seen as a tacit or de facto denial of these essential doctrines in the denomination. I think at the last GA they failed to affirm that Jesus is the only way to heaven.

I too think that there would have to be a better church to attend, even an evangelical Arminian one, SBC, LCMS, "Bible" church, etc. Arguably the leadership of the PCUSA is worse than even the UMC in pushing the gay agenda, etc.

Cottonball · #16 (**permalink**) 11-09-2005, 12:14 AM

Ok, somehow I managed to completely miss Craig's first post. Now I can see your point.

However, I still can't entirely agree, simply because I live in Toronto. As I've ranted about before, the churches here have the gay flag up in their windows!! Not only do they allow homosexuals to marry in the churches, but they flaunt it!

I don't know about the Presby church here, whether it does that. St. Paul's certainly doesn't. The church I'm attending in Toronto, Knox, certainly doesn't--although it did have a female preacher last week, which shocked the heck out of me. But then the minister this week said he didn't agree with her message. So hopefully they won't do that again! That was so random and out of the blue. Anyway, Knox is probably one of the most conservative churches in Toronto. So you can see how hopeless the situation can be in some places!

Me Died Blue · #17 (**permalink**) 11-09-2005, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gwine

Quote:

If the PCUSA is a false church, then all of its congregations are false churches

I guess I had not thought of it that way. So you are saying that even if Sam Spade at First Presbyterian (PC-USA) is a reformed 5 point Calvinist minister, and his congregation is in agreement with him, but they are staying in the PC-USA hoping against hope to change her, that they are a false church? Maybe I am being too melodramatic here, but I would like to believe that it could happen. Such is my naivete.

I think the determining factor would be whether the PCUSA is actually apostate, or merely in serious error. If the latter, I would agree with you on reform - but if it is an apostate institution, then if nothing else would not a body such as your example above essentially be accepting congregationalism for themselves by remaining within it? And even in that situation, the problem is that the PCUSA is not a congregational institution, and hence that particular body would still inevitably be actively and fully identifying themselves with an apostate institution that is not a church.

Classic examples of that important but overlooked distinction are that the Reformers saw it necessary to separate from Rome as a synagogue of Satan, yet the Puritans stayed within the erring Church of England trying to reform it.

fredtgreco · #18 (**permalink**) 11-09-2005, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Me Died Blue

Quote:

Originally posted by gwine

Quote:

If the PCUSA is a false church, then all of its congregations are false churches

I guess I had not thought of it that way. So you are saying that even if Sam Spade at First Presbyterian (PC-USA) is a reformed 5 point Calvinist minister, and his congregation is in agreement with him, but they are staying in the PC-USA hoping against hope to change her, that they are a false church? Maybe I am being too melodramatic here, but I would like to believe that it could happen. Such is my naivete.

I think the determining factor would be whether the PCUSA is actually apostate, or merely in serious error. If the latter, I would agree with you on reform - but if it is an apostate institution, then if nothing else would not a body such as your example above essentially be accepting congregationalism for themselves by remaining within it? And even in that situation, the problem is that the PCUSA is not a congregational institution, and hence that particular body would still inevitably be actively and fully identifying themselves with an apostate institution that is not a church.

Classic examples of that important but overlooked distinction are that the Reformers saw it necessary to separate from Rome as a synagogue of Satan, yet the Puritans stayed within the erring Church of England trying to reform it.

Something that makes this sticky: with the sole exception of the BPC (I believe) the PCUSA has not been officially declared apostate (John Gerstner doesn't count).

We also have another potential problem: if it is apostate, then their baptisms are not valid. Every one of them. That would put most Presbyterians in the (unusual and uncomfortable) position of denying the baptism performed by a 5 point Calvinist in an evangelical church (they do exist) while allowing that of a Papist who hates the gospel.

I am also not sure as a matter of fact if the PCUSA can be considered Presbyterian, since they have cast off their creeds and confessions and have essentially congregational polity. They are more analogous to Congregational churches in my mind.

This is a difficult question.

Romans922 · #19 (**permalink**) 11-09-2005, 12:41 AM

Despite what most people have said here, there are some good pcusa churches.

Not all are liberal, some are right on. They just decided to not be separatists (maybe that is a fault), but it just depends on the church.

I know a few PCUSA attenders who are right on. So research the church and see how close they are to a Biblical Church, and how close they are to following the WCF. Don't think that all PCUSA churches are apostate, that is just ignorant of the situation.

WrittenFromUtopia · #20 (**permalink**) 11-09-2005, 12:44 AM

How is Rome not apostate if the PCUSA is???

fredtgreco · #21 (**permalink**) 11-09-2005, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia
How is Rome not apostate if the PCUSA is???

You got me Gabe.

Cottonball · #22 (**permalink**) 11-09-2005, 12:50 AM

I think that's also partially what I was trying to say.. There are a lot worse things than liberal Presbyterian!

WrittenFromUtopia · #23 (**permalink**) 11-09-2005, 12:51 AM

So... what does it take to declare Rome apostate? Can we vote on that?