Hi All,

I thought I'd start a new thread on this topic as a break off from the one I started on Saint Andrews Chapel.

If you were on vacation would/could you worship at an orthodox church that you knew violated the 2nd Commandment?

__________________
Ryan Barnhart - Pastor of OGBC
Husband to a beautiful wife, Father to two beautiful girls
"But by the grace of God I am what I am." I Corinthians 15:10

"I confess to you, that if I can but live and die serving the Lord Jesus, it will make no difference to me whether I am eaten by Cannibals or by worms. And in the Great Day my Resurrection body will rise as fair as yours in the likeness of our risen Redeemer." - John Paton

You mean as in "pictures" of Christ? No.
*let me add, that Saint Andrews is one of the more over the top examples I've heard about.

__________________
Chris Coldwell
Lakewood Presbyterian Church (PCA), Member
• Naphtali Press: Presbyterian & Reformed Books
• The Confessional Presbyterian, A Journal for Discussion of Presbyterian Doctrine & Practice
• The Blue Banner Archive

When heresy rises in an evangelical body, it is never frank and open. It always begins by skulking, and assuming a disguise. Its advocates, when together, boast of great improvements, and congratulate one another on having gone greatly beyond the ‘old dead orthodoxy,’ and on having left behind many of its antiquated errors: but when taxed with deviations from the received faith, they complain of the unreasonableness of their accusers, as they ‘differ from it only in words.’ This has been the standing course of errorists ever since the apostolic age. Samuel Miller, Introductory essay, The Articles of the Synod of Dort (1841).

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Right, I'm talking about churches that violate the commandment in terms of images of Christ, crosses etc.

__________________
Ryan Barnhart - Pastor of OGBC
Husband to a beautiful wife, Father to two beautiful girls
"But by the grace of God I am what I am." I Corinthians 15:10

"I confess to you, that if I can but live and die serving the Lord Jesus, it will make no difference to me whether I am eaten by Cannibals or by worms. And in the Great Day my Resurrection body will rise as fair as yours in the likeness of our risen Redeemer." - John Paton

If I had no other choice then, yes. Also depends on how grossly they break the commandment. I can live with an isolated cross but not with images of "Jesus". To me the "Jesus" image is a disgusting and damaging piece of idolatry that should not be tolerated.

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Benjamin P. Glaser
Pittsburgh, PA
Fairmount ARP Church
Student of Theology
Pittsburgh Theological Seminary
Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary
My Blog

"Nothing is sweet to me without the enjoyment of Christ in it." -- Thomas Brooks

Having a cross in the sanctuary violates the 2nd commandment?

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Bob Howes
Framingham, MA

A reoccurring thought:

Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

In my PCA Church we have a small Cross, we view it more as "symbol" than "image".

__________________
~etexas~

I've just kept my eyes down in the past... though the assembly also had a female pastor (an Anglican church in the UK), so there were more than just this issue going on...

__________________
Jacob
Sovereign Grace Ministries
Covenant Fellowship Church
West Chester, PA

"Grace renews nature; glory perfects grace." ~ John Owen
Blog - The Strasbourg Inn

We have a cross behind our pulpit. Although, I have been participating in a local PCA Bible study on the Institutes and I am sorting through this in my own life.

As Josh noted in another thread, Calvin would rip me to pieces for having this cross in my church if he were here today.

__________________
Ryan Barnhart - Pastor of OGBC
Husband to a beautiful wife, Father to two beautiful girls
"But by the grace of God I am what I am." I Corinthians 15:10

"I confess to you, that if I can but live and die serving the Lord Jesus, it will make no difference to me whether I am eaten by Cannibals or by worms. And in the Great Day my Resurrection body will rise as fair as yours in the likeness of our risen Redeemer." - John Paton

A cross wouldn't stop me, nor would a national flag, although it would be a point of discomfort. But an image of "Jesus" on display in the room where preaching is taking place would be a deal-breaker.

__________________
Ruben
Moderator

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Calvinistas Conversando - Reformed Discussion Board in Spanish.

Spanish Blog -Teologia en Mexico
English Blog -The Howling Wilderness

Just for clarification, I was specifically talking about the context of Images intended to portray Christ when I made mention of Knox and Calvin.

__________________
Josh Hicks, Chloë's Daddy
Member of TRBC. My Blog
The Puritan Pub (Team Blog)
Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Right! I gotta stop today. I'm killing myself.

Though I'm fairly certain reading the Institutes Calvin wouldn't have much good to say about the cross in the church either.

__________________
Ryan Barnhart - Pastor of OGBC
Husband to a beautiful wife, Father to two beautiful girls
"But by the grace of God I am what I am." I Corinthians 15:10

"I confess to you, that if I can but live and die serving the Lord Jesus, it will make no difference to me whether I am eaten by Cannibals or by worms. And in the Great Day my Resurrection body will rise as fair as yours in the likeness of our risen Redeemer." - John Paton

While it may become a stumbling block for superstiion and even idolatrous worship, a cross is not in and of itself idolatry like a purported image of Christ.

__________________
Chris Coldwell
Lakewood Presbyterian Church (PCA), Member
• Naphtali Press: Presbyterian & Reformed Books
• The Confessional Presbyterian, A Journal for Discussion of Presbyterian Doctrine & Practice
• The Blue Banner Archive

When heresy rises in an evangelical body, it is never frank and open. It always begins by skulking, and assuming a disguise. Its advocates, when together, boast of great improvements, and congratulate one another on having gone greatly beyond the ‘old dead orthodoxy,’ and on having left behind many of its antiquated errors: but when taxed with deviations from the received faith, they complain of the unreasonableness of their accusers, as they ‘differ from it only in words.’ This has been the standing course of errorists ever since the apostolic age. Samuel Miller, Introductory essay, The Articles of the Synod of Dort (1841).

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

I worship in one now. Our PCA church rents a Seventh Day Adventist church on Sunday since those folks don't use it on Sunday.
It has a giant picture of what someone thinks Jesus looked like.
It bugs me.
One of my buddys at church calls it the giant picture of Barry Gibbs from the Beegees.
White hippie Jesus just makes me eager for us to get our own building but I don't think we are in sin by worshipping there.

__________________
Richard H. King
Providence PCA
Lubbock, Texas
"No matter how far a man goes, he eventually finds out God's already there." John Wayne - the last line in "Chisum"

In many areas it is like searching for the proverbial hen's tooth to find a church that doesn't violate the 2nd Commandment in some way, although many are not so blatant as the example in view here.

__________________
Chris Poe
Mandeville, LA

"There are the foolish fanatics always to be found in such a movement and always discrediting it--the lunatic fringe in all reform movements." Theodore Roosevelt

__________________
Ryan Barnhart - Pastor of OGBC
Husband to a beautiful wife, Father to two beautiful girls
"But by the grace of God I am what I am." I Corinthians 15:10

"I confess to you, that if I can but live and die serving the Lord Jesus, it will make no difference to me whether I am eaten by Cannibals or by worms. And in the Great Day my Resurrection body will rise as fair as yours in the likeness of our risen Redeemer." - John Paton

Since you are a Baptist I think he'd have some other reasons to "rip you to pieces" as well.

__________________
Chris Poe
Mandeville, LA

"There are the foolish fanatics always to be found in such a movement and always discrediting it--the lunatic fringe in all reform movements." Theodore Roosevelt

Just for clarification, are we talking about a plain cross or a crucifix? I wasn't aware that a plain cross was an issue in Calvin's day. Did he disavow all religious imagery?

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Tom Albrecht
Member, Covenant URCNA, New Holland, PA.

"I'm not a famous man. I'm just a simple country doctor with horse sense."

In an extreme situation, I would. I would keep my eyes forward (or down) depending on where said images were and focus on the Word.

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~etexas~

If it was the only otherwise sound option I knew of, yes.

Here's a hypothetical. Assume in this case the decision is which church to join, not just visit. Say you are credo and the only two churches in the area that would be legitimate options are a Baptist church that violates the 2nd Commandment with some kind of pictures of Christ and a Presbyterian one that follows the RPW except in the case of infant baptism. (In the Baptist view infant baptism violates the RPW, which is an application of the 2nd Commandment.) What do you do?

__________________
Chris Poe
Mandeville, LA

"There are the foolish fanatics always to be found in such a movement and always discrediting it--the lunatic fringe in all reform movements." Theodore Roosevelt

Move.