Worship Service Music

blhowes · #1 (**permalink**) 09-08-2008, 05:18 PM

In the past, some on the PB (don't recall if they still participate on PB) who hold to EP have said that if they attend a church that sings anything other than Psalms that they refrain from singing. They don't make a big issue of it or bring attention to themselves, but they just refrain from singing.

For EPers:
1. Do you refrain from singing hymns, etc. at other churches? Why/Why not?
2. Since (in your view) singing of Psalms is the music commanded in scripture, do you think singing anything other than Psalms somehow displeases God?

For non-EPers:
1. Have you ever been to a church that had a contemporary Christian music during the worship service where you felt compelled to refrain from singing? Why/Why not?
2. Is there any kind of music that is played in churches that you think would displease God?

dcomin · #2 (**permalink**) 09-08-2008, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blhowes

For EPers:
1. Do you refrain from singing hymns, etc. at other churches? Why/Why not?

Yes. When I attend worship at a church where un-inspired songs of mere human composition are sung, I do not join in the congregational singing. I stand with an open hymnbook, but remain silent. I do this because in my conscience I am convinced that God has appointed His inspired Psalms as the only songs to be sung in His worship, and so, for me to sing songs that He has not commanded would be to sin against His Word and my conscience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blhowes

2. Since (in your view) singing of Psalms is the music commanded in scripture, do you think singing anything other than Psalms somehow displeases God?

Is this a trick question? If God has commanded the singing of His inspired Psalms, and He has not commanded men to write their own songs and sing them in place of His appointed Psalms of praise, then how could singing something other than what He has commanded be anything but displeasing to Him? Sincerity of heart has never made a worship practice which God did not command pleasing in His sight.

charliejunfan · #3 (**permalink**) 09-08-2008, 07:19 PM

What does EP mean? Electorally Presbyterian? I am newly presbyterian(was a reformed baptist) so i don't know the overall differences between the various Presbyterian denominations and reformed baptists

Davidius · #4 (**permalink**) 09-08-2008, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcomin

Quote:

Originally Posted by blhowes

For EPers:
1. Do you refrain from singing hymns, etc. at other churches? Why/Why not?

Yes. When I attend worship at a church where un-inspired songs of mere human composition are sung, I do not join in the congregational singing. I stand with an open hymnbook, but remain silent. I do this because in my conscience I am convinced that God has appointed His inspired Psalms as the only songs to be sung in His worship, and so, for me to sing songs that He has not commanded would be to sin against His Word and my conscience.

Doug,

The scriptures tell us that we are to flee even the appearance of evil. If your practice is not to sing along with the congregation, which you would consider evil, why do you stand with an open hymnbook as if you were taking part? Doesn't this give the appearance to everyone else that you are doing something which you consider evil?

Quote:

Originally Posted by charliejunfan

What does EP mean? Electorally Presbyterian? I am newly presbyterian(was a reformed baptist) so i don't know the overall differences between the various Presbyterian denominations and reformed baptists

EP stands for "exclusive psalmody." Adherents believe that the scriptures allow only for Psalms to be sung in worship. You will be able to find a lot about this in the Worship forum.

sans nom · #5 (**permalink**) 09-08-2008, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blhowes

For non-EPers:
1. Have you ever been to a church that had a contemporary Christian music during the worship service where you felt compelled to refrain from singing? Why/Why not?
2. Is there any kind of music that is played in churches that you think would displease God?

We were visiting the CRC church that my in-laws attend over Canada Day last year, and they sung the national anthem. We refrained from singing, though it wasn't much, since many in the congregation did the same for their own reasons.

FrielWatcher · #6 (**permalink**) 09-08-2008, 07:36 PM

I refer you to the long, long thread "Psalmody and Worship." VirginiaHuegonot has posted very good information about EP on there. There is also a debate in there somewhere. You may find it interesting. A lot of people contributed.

CovenantalBaptist · #7 (**permalink**) 09-08-2008, 07:43 PM

I know some Presbyterian EP'ers (Exclusive Psalmody) who actually sing Psalms to the hymn tunes if they are the same tune (as they often are in a church with traditional hymnody). It's a bit confusing (in my personal view) but they do try and be discreet. I truly respect their desire and extreme effort to participate in corporate worship with a clear conscience even if I disagree with their theological conclusions. (I'm personally for Inclusive Psalmody not exclusive).

dcomin · #8 (**permalink**) 09-08-2008, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davidius

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcomin

Quote:

Originally Posted by blhowes

For EPers:
1. Do you refrain from singing hymns, etc. at other churches? Why/Why not?

Yes. When I attend worship at a church where un-inspired songs of mere human composition are sung, I do not join in the congregational singing. I stand with an open hymnbook, but remain silent. I do this because in my conscience I am convinced that God has appointed His inspired Psalms as the only songs to be sung in His worship, and so, for me to sing songs that He has not commanded would be to sin against His Word and my conscience.

Doug,

The scriptures tell us that we are to flee even the appearance of evil. If your practice is not to sing along with the congregation, which you would consider evil, why do you stand with an open hymnbook as if you were taking part? Doesn't this give the appearance to everyone else that you are doing something which you consider evil?

I didn't say that I mouth the words and pretend that I'm going along. I stand out of courtesy to my brethren, though I believe they are in error. While they are singing, I look at the words of the song. It is not my place or my desire, in the midst of God's worship, to make a display of pointing out what I believe to be an error on the part of my fellow saints. But often, it is noticed that I did not join in the singing, and edifying discussions take place after the service. All without throwing milking stools (ala Jenny Geddes) or sitting in stone-faced defiance with a black scowl on my face and arms crossed in protest as my well-meaning, but errant brothers and sisters sing unauthorized songs.

Backwoods Presbyterian · #9 (**permalink**) 09-08-2008, 10:03 PM

but were you at the picnic at RPTS tonight Doug?

dcomin · #10 (**permalink**) 09-08-2008, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Backwoods Presbyterian

but were you at the picnic at RPTS tonight Doug?

Aahhhh... no... I didn't know there WAS a picnic at RPTS... Guess I wasn't invited.

Backwoods Presbyterian · #11 (**permalink**) 09-08-2008, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcomin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Backwoods Presbyterian

but were you at the picnic at RPTS tonight Doug?

Aahhhh... no... I didn't know there WAS a picnic at RPTS... Guess I wasn't invited.

I got there late and saw a man of your general description driving away in a Tan Toyota Corolla.

panta dokimazete · #12 (**permalink**) 09-08-2008, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcomin

I didn't say that I mouth the words and pretend that I'm going along. I stand out of courtesy to my brethren, though I believe they are in error. While they are singing, I look at the words of the song. It is not my place or my desire, in the midst of God's worship, to make a display of pointing out what I believe to be an error on the part of my fellow saints. But often, it is noticed that I did not join in the singing, and edifying discussions take place after the service. All without throwing milking stools (ala Jenny Geddes) or sitting in stone-faced defiance with a black scowl on my face and arms crossed in protest as my well-meaning, but errant brothers and sisters sing unauthorized songs.

The cool thing is, I could fully participate in worship at your church, even though I consider your praxy to be in error, thus drawing no attention to myself or causing any disturbance to the worship of God at all.

sans nom · #13 (**permalink**) 09-08-2008, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CovenantalBaptist

I know some Presbyterian EP'ers (Exclusive Psalmody) who actually sing Psalms to the hymn tunes if they are the same tune (as they often are in a church with traditional hymnody).

This would be more disturbing than the person not signing at all. If they don't agree with the music selection, they should refrain from singing, rather than determining their own music selection.

dcomin · #14 (**permalink**) 09-08-2008, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by panta dokimazete

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcomin

I didn't say that I mouth the words and pretend that I'm going along. I stand out of courtesy to my brethren, though I believe they are in error. While they are singing, I look at the words of the song. It is not my place or my desire, in the midst of God's worship, to make a display of pointing out what I believe to be an error on the part of my fellow saints. But often, it is noticed that I did not join in the singing, and edifying discussions take place after the service. All without throwing milking stools (ala Jenny Geddes) or sitting in stone-faced defiance with a black scowl on my face and arms crossed in protest as my well-meaning, but errant brothers and sisters sing unauthorized songs.

The cool thing is, I could fully participate in worship at your church, even though I consider your praxy to be in error, thus drawing no attention to myself or causing any disturbance to the worship of God at all.

I suppose I should have seen that one coming, jd...

Of course, the same could be said by someone who holds that juggling cats is an acceptable element of worship.

If it's a legitimate issue of conscience, based on a legitimate Biblical hermeneutic, the fact that someone who doesn't accept it can worship "freely" in my congregation does not prove that my position is wrong.

The fact that someone who practices error is comfortable among those who do not, does not make error the preferable choice. Nor does it mean that one who is uncomfortable in the presence of those whose practice is in error is to be blamed for the scruples of their conscience.

Davidius · #15 (**permalink**) 09-08-2008, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcomin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davidius

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcomin

Yes. When I attend worship at a church where un-inspired songs of mere human composition are sung, I do not join in the congregational singing. I stand with an open hymnbook, but remain silent. I do this because in my conscience I am convinced that God has appointed His inspired Psalms as the only songs to be sung in His worship, and so, for me to sing songs that He has not commanded would be to sin against His Word and my conscience.

Doug,

The scriptures tell us that we are to flee even the appearance of evil. If your practice is not to sing along with the congregation, which you would consider evil, why do you stand with an open hymnbook as if you were taking part? Doesn't this give the appearance to everyone else that you are doing something which you consider evil?

I didn't say that I mouth the words and pretend that I'm going along. I stand out of courtesy to my brethren, though I believe they are in error. While they are singing, I look at the words of the song. It is not my place or my desire, in the midst of God's worship, to make a display of pointing out what I believe to be an error on the part of my fellow saints. But often, it is noticed that I did not join in the singing, and edifying discussions take place after the service. All without throwing milking stools (ala Jenny Geddes) or sitting in stone-faced defiance with a black scowl on my face and arms crossed in protest as my well-meaning, but errant brothers and sisters sing unauthorized songs.

While I understand that we would not want to make too much of a fuss, I would think that standing and holding the book open is pretty close to the appearance of participation. Thanks for the winsome response, though.

panta dokimazete · #16 (**permalink**) 09-08-2008, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcomin

I suppose I should have seen that one coming, jd...

Of course, the same could be said by someone who holds that juggling cats is an acceptable element of worship.

If it's a legitimate issue of conscience, based on a legitimate Biblical hermeneutic, the fact that someone who doesn't accept it can worship "freely" in my congregation does not prove that my position is wrong.

The fact that someone who practices error is comfortable among those who do not, does not make error the preferable choice. Nor does it mean that one who is uncomfortable in the presence of those whose practice is in error is to be blamed for the scruples of their conscience.

Only making the point of contrast, my brother

and surely you would agree that a personal scruple should not distract from worship, even worship you see as flawed?

Unless you are making the tacit statement that you don't see it as worship in spirit and truth?

In which case, why in the world would you participate in error?

Wouldn't that be violating the RPW?

dcomin · #17 (**permalink**) 09-08-2008, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davidius

Thanks for the winsome response, though.

Please forgive me, brother. The tone of my reply was unwarranted.

blhowes · #18 (**permalink**) 09-09-2008, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcomin

Is this a trick question? If God has commanded the singing of His inspired Psalms, and He has not commanded men to write their own songs and sing them in place of His appointed Psalms of praise, then how could singing something other than what He has commanded be anything but displeasing to Him? Sincerity of heart has never made a worship practice which God did not command pleasing in His sight.

No, not a trick question. I'm just thinking through EP/Hymns/Contemporary Music that's used in worship services, was wondering what conclusions others have drawn. I may not like a certain type (contemporary music), but that's just a preference. As one who prefers hymns, I've been wondering if I have any reason to say that God is pleased with the hymns sung, yet is displeased with any form of contemporary music.

Its a sobering thought if God is displeased with a form of music that's sung in so many churches.

JohnV · #19 (**permalink**) 09-09-2008, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blhowes

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcomin

Is this a trick question? If God has commanded the singing of His inspired Psalms, and He has not commanded men to write their own songs and sing them in place of His appointed Psalms of praise, then how could singing something other than what He has commanded be anything but displeasing to Him? Sincerity of heart has never made a worship practice which God did not command pleasing in His sight.

No, not a trick question. I'm just thinking through EP/Hymns/Contemporary Music that's used in worship services, was wondering what conclusions others have drawn. I may not like a certain type (contemporary music), but that's just a preference. As one who prefers hymns, I've been wondering if I have any reason to say that God is pleased with the hymns sung, yet is displeased with any form of contemporary music.

Its a sobering thought if God is displeased with a form of music that's sung in so many churches.

If you want my opinion, Bob, I'll freely give it. But it's only my opinion.

I think its an overstatement to say that God has not commanded to write songs, and especially that He is not pleased when men put their praises to music. In my view this kind of argument is the same error as being musically and doctrinally careless about what music is brought into the worship service.

And that seems to me what you're trying to get at, Bob. What is it about worship songs and the music it is put to that is either pleasing or displeasing to God? And there's another thread wondering how this runs into areas of Christian liberties of conscience.

It's a tough question, Bob. To answer it we have to depend on what the Bible says, and that what it says is quite sufficient for worship and faith. I try to divorce myself from the debate as much as possible so that I can read the Bible objectively on the issue. Neither the Bible nor the Confessions mandate EP; something that important would be stated in no uncertain terms just like other important teachings. So if the Bible and the Confessions aren't clear on it then don't let anyone push you around on that point: it is NOT a point of doctrine. But at the same time the fact is that we are pushed by the (wicked) culture into various forms of music, and we need to be much more careful as to what we call real music, especially for worship. And that's an important thing in reading the Bible on the issue.

I define music, all of music, by the worship aspect of it. All music is related to worship in one form or another. Music begins and ends with worship. So to call certain forms of music idolatry is not that far off the mark for me. I see some forms of contemporary music as idolatry, and bringing it into the worship service merely by changing the words does not lessen the idolatry of it.