What's Wrong With Solos?

Chiefmusician · #1 (**permalink**) 09-05-2007, 08:35 PM

After reading several post in this topic I saw many passing comments about how solos=performance etc. So I would like someone to explain something to me.

There is a lot of talk among reformed circles concerning the move away from congregational singing. Their argument is that the seeker movement has turned church music into a spectator event. While this may or may not be true I believe we need to face the fact that congregational singing is not the only singing that God intended for the church.

Historically the Old Testament reveals a lot to us about the use of individuals with great talent in worship. Men were set aside strictly for the purpose of writing songs of worship and praise to the Lord. These men were extremely gifted in their craft, whether it was playing an instrument or the singing of Psalms. We have no reason to assume these Psalms where always sung by the entire congregation of the temple. We do know for sure that numerous songs were sung by choirs.

What I have discovered about a majority of theologians or theologian wannabes is that they don’t really appreciate musical talent. Oh they recognize talent when they see it, but don’t appreciate it unless it falls into their particular preference of music. In my view they sometimes fail to see the emotional side of music. (many fail to see the emotional side to Christianity) but like Jonathan Edwards said, “yet true religion consists so much in the affections, that there can be no true religion without them. He who has no religious affection, is in a state of spiritual death, and is wholly destitute of the powerful, quickening, saving influences of the Spirit of God upon his heart.”

In reformed camps, if a song is not theologically as deep as Bill Gates pockets, then it is usually written off as not worthy of singing. I find however, a simple song of praise can rightly stir the affections of the soul as much as a great hymn, if it is truly Biblical in its message. There is more to music than its ability to help retain knowledge. One of the purposes of music is to stir the emotions of the heart. If not then why not just read the lyrics. We should choose songs that allow us to attach these emotions to the truth of scripture, but to act as if emotions don't play a part is deny aspects of anthropology.

I am a singer. I play several instruments, but in my heart I am a singer. I am actually a good singer. I know how that sounds, conceited, right? With the recent American Idol craze I don’t blame you for not taking my word for it. You will just have to assume for the sake of this forum that I know what I am talking about (my singing that is). I have been given the ability to sing well. Most of my congregation has not. When singing a solo I try hard to keep my pride in check, I try to live a life that will glorify God, and try equally hard to sing songs that bring God glory, and sing them in such a way that God is honored. When it comes to congregational singing no one enjoys it more than me. One of my favorite times in a service is when a song has a true corporate voice and I can hear them praising God together as a body of believers, but I also like to sing solos and I life to hear solos.. I believe it is one of the talents God has given me. I also believe that when certain songs are sung by the right individuals our congregation is edified.

There are others maybe in your congregation that have a great talent to sing, but you may never know it. Some may have a great ability to play an instrument.

I can tell you as a singer that I want to sing. So please, those of you who don’t really even like music don’t begrudge us poor singers the opportunity to share our talents. I believe God likes solos.

If there should be no solos or instruments tell us poor musicians when and where we are supposed to use these talents to glorify God and edify the body?

Semper Fidelis · #2 (**permalink**) 09-05-2007, 08:45 PM

Scott,

Welcome to the board. I enjoy your "Good Ol' Boy" accent on TNM. I have a home in Murrieta. I was telling Gene the other day I had no idea there was a Reformed Southern Baptist plant in my backyard when we lived there from 1999-2003. I'm gratified that the Lord has blessed your congregation.

Are you familiar with the Regulative Principle of Worship? (http://www.solideogloria.com/article...07/10/08.24.57)

What element of worship would a solo fall under in terms of positive command for inclusion in worship?

I think you're confusing the idea of a talent that can be broadly used to glorify God with the idea that every talent ought to be exercised in the worship of God. Some people make the same arguments for dancing, drama, puppets, and mimes in worship as well.

I think one always has to be careful to not make an argument on the basis of a pragrmatism and likes/dislikes. Pragmatism can actually be a gateway to idolatry. The RPW is a very specific guard against that and is a Reformed principle of worship.

There are very accomplished musicians here that use their talents to the Glory of God. They just don't use those talents in worship if they believe that God has not specifically commanded it and has therefore forbidden it.

elnwood · #3 (**permalink**) 09-05-2007, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SemperFideles

What element of worship would a solo fall under in terms of positive command for inclusion in worship?

Singing.

Chiefmusician · #4 (**permalink**) 09-05-2007, 09:03 PM

I am familiar with the Regulative Principal, but I fail to see how adhering to the RP negates solos. I don't find drama, puppets or mimes in scripture, but I do find singing.

Calvibaptist · #5 (**permalink**) 09-05-2007, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiefmusician

I am familiar with the Regulative Principal, but I fail to see how adhering to the RP negates solos. I don't find drama, puppets or mimes in scripture, but I do find singing.

Scott,

I appreciate your passion for music. I have it as well. I was a music education major in college. I have sung (solos) since I was in first grade. I have played the piano since I was in 3rd grade. I messed around with bagpipes and guitar (although not at the same time!) I was a music minister for 3 years. So, I understand where you are coming from.

Having been on both sides of the pulpit for many years, I have sympathy to both sides of whether there should be solos or not. To be honest, I don't think it is sinful, or necessarily completely against the RPW to have solos in worship. I just think that it is not the best place for solos. There is too much danger for pride when one person is performing. There is too much possibility for passive watching rather than engaged involvement from the congregation. For involvement in worship, congregational singing is best.

Those are simply my thoughts, not something I would be willing to die for!

dalecosby · #6 (**permalink**) 09-05-2007, 09:13 PM

Quote:

I am familiar with the Regulative Principal, but I fail to see how adhering to the RP negates solos. I don't find drama, puppets or mimes in scripture, but I do find singing.

Are we talking about corporate worship or private worship?
I know the answer, that is an answer in the form of a question.

ANother thing to consider, do you allow women to sing solos?

dalecosby · #7 (**permalink**) 09-05-2007, 09:17 PM

Quote:

I just think that it is not the best place for solos. There is too much danger for pride when one person is performing.

That is what helped me come to the conclusion that I should not be performing solos.
The last time I did a solo was about 2 years ago.

I was totally consumed with performing for the audience the whole time.
The audience seemed to really like it but how was God glorified?
Was I directing the glory to me or God?

I could not in good conscience do that again.
WHen others in our church sing or play specials I do not interfere but I simply do not play them anymore myself.
I should add that I have played literally hundreds of trumpet solos in church.
Church music has been a way of life for 3 generations in my family.
It didn't go over very well when I realized I should stop.

Greg · #8 (**permalink**) 09-05-2007, 09:18 PM

During a solo (voice or instrumental), are the congregates, for that moment, focused on the Lord or the soloist?

Excluding the use of soloists during a time when the church's focus should be on the Lord alone has nothing to do with not appreciating talent. Surely God is the giver of all good gifts and talents. And they should be used for His glory.

Quote:

If there should be no solos or instruments tell us poor musicians when and where we are supposed to use these talents to glorify God and edify the body?

As a musician there are plenty of opportunities to use your gift. Is the church setting the only place you sing? Do you compose, record and/or gig? If not, have you considered to do so to the glory of God? J.S. Bach was only one of the countless musicians/composers to commit all of his works to the glory of God.

dalecosby · #9 (**permalink**) 09-05-2007, 09:29 PM

Many of us have been raised to believe that church was the ultimate place to use our talents as musicians.
I am not sure that is true.

I am a recording engineer and I produce gospel radio program. That is outside public worship an I see no problem with it.

py3ak · #10 (**permalink**) 09-05-2007, 10:32 PM

John MacArthur pointed out that musical talent is one of the few talents we assume must be used within the church: if I have a talent for plumbing or carpentry, I don't conclude it's wasted if I don't build the pulpit or set up sprinklers for the church lawn. Why should I assume my musical talent is wasted unless I regale the congregation with my favorite pieces?

panta dokimazete · #11 (**permalink**) 09-05-2007, 10:37 PM

I have been a music leader for many years - my experience has lead me to disagree with "solos" in the strictest sense - that is - a single person with some sort of recorded accompaniment. That being said - a vocalist working together with a group of musicians...I can see that being ok...as long as the song is glorifying to God and not the vocalist. Even as I lead - I feel most comfortable that I am not the center of attention by being a component of a group/ensemble. I seriously question anyone that desires the "limelight".

Semper Fidelis · #12 (**permalink**) 09-05-2007, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elnwood

Quote:

Originally Posted by SemperFideles

What element of worship would a solo fall under in terms of positive command for inclusion in worship?

Singing.

More specifically, where is the command for a solo to be performed? Corporate singing is an element commanded but solos are not.

JBaldwin · #13 (**permalink**) 09-05-2007, 11:35 PM

[quote]

Quote:

Having been on both sides of the pulpit for many years, I have sympathy to both sides of whether there should be solos or not. To be honest, I don't think it is sinful, or necessarily completely against the RPW to have solos in worship. I just think that it is not the best place for solos. There is too much danger for pride when one person is performing. There is too much possibility for passive watching rather than engaged involvement from the congregation. For involvement in worship, congregational singing is best.[/QUOTE

Forgive me if this sounds sarcastic, but isn't there too much danger for pride when one person is up there preaching? My point being that anytime we are in front of a group of people doing anything, there is danger of pride. Fear of falling into pride should not keep us from doing what is perfectly acceptable. Instead we should go forward with it trusting God to keep our pride in check.

There are psalms that were sung in a "call and response" style where one person (a cantor) led and the congregation responded. That in itself is solo singing which is perfectly acceptable. An example of this is Psalm 118.

Calvibaptist · #14 (**permalink**) 09-05-2007, 11:39 PM

[quote=JBaldwin;303684]

Quote:

Having been on both sides of the pulpit for many years, I have sympathy to both sides of whether there should be solos or not. To be honest, I don't think it is sinful, or necessarily completely against the RPW to have solos in worship. I just think that it is not the best place for solos. There is too much danger for pride when one person is performing. There is too much possibility for passive watching rather than engaged involvement from the congregation. For involvement in worship, congregational singing is best.[/QUOTE

Forgive me if this sounds sarcastic, but isn't there too much danger for pride when one person is up there preaching? My point being that anytime we are in front of a group of people doing anything, there is danger of pride. Fear of falling into pride should not keep us from doing what is perfectly acceptable. Instead we should go forward with it trusting God to keep our pride in check.

You are right and pride is something preachers have to look out for. One difference is that preaching is commanded. Singing solos is not.

Quote:

There are psalms that were sung in a "call and response" style where one person (a cantor) led and the congregation responded. That in itself is solo singing which is perfectly acceptable. An example of this is Psalm 118.

Actually, although I am not sure of this, I believe the "call and response" in the Old Testament involved antiphonal choirs, not an individual cantor.

Chiefmusician · #15 (**permalink**) 09-06-2007, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SemperFideles

More specifically, where is the command for a solo to be performed? Corporate singing is an element commanded but solos are not.

Where is corporate singing commanded?

Chiefmusician · #16 (**permalink**) 09-06-2007, 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalecosby

Another thing to consider, do you allow women to sing solos?

I am afraid to see where this is going, but yes I would allow a women to sing a solo in church.

Also don't me wrong. I am not looking for the limelight or feel that I have to sing a solo to feel validated. I spent the last two years with very few solos from anyone in our congregation simply for the fact that I felt we need to focus exclusively on the corporate singing. Mainly because so many people coming to our church had come from performance centered churches and needed to be retaught the corporate mindset. I still stress this mindset. My only point was that I believe you will have as hard of a time biblically backing the rejection of solos in church as you will biblically backing no musical instruments in church.

As with anything pride can always be a problem, but that doesn't mean it is automatically bad. I would ask someone with a pride problem to step down from a choir as soon as I would a soloist.

John MacArthur pointed out that musical talent is one of the few talents we assume must be used within the church: I use my talents outside of church when given opportunity, but the plumber or carpenter comparisons doesn't fit this scenario. I am sure the Emergents have found a way to do it, but you will be hard pressed to find carpentry as part of worship. However, singing and music take up a lot of scripture, and a large portion of our services. So it goes without saying that these talents should be used in church, but my question was a question of degree.

Semper Fidelis · #17 (**permalink**) 09-06-2007, 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiefmusician

Quote:

Originally Posted by SemperFideles

More specifically, where is the command for a solo to be performed? Corporate singing is an element commanded but solos are not.

Where is corporate singing commanded?

Are you serious?

Do you believe that the Regulative Principle of Worship governs what is acceptable in worship or not? If not, then we might as well be talking about two different subjects. If you do, then your question would be odd considering you are leading Corporate Singing in violation of God's Will if you do not believe He has commanded the assembly of His people to praise Him with psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs.

elnwood · #18 (**permalink**) 09-06-2007, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SemperFideles

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiefmusician

Quote:

Originally Posted by SemperFideles

More specifically, where is the command for a solo to be performed? Corporate singing is an element commanded but solos are not.

Where is corporate singing commanded?

Are you serious?

Do you believe that the Regulative Principle of Worship governs what is acceptable in worship or not? If not, then we might as well be talking about two different subjects. If you do, then your question would be odd considering you are leading Corporate Singing in violation of God's Will if you do not believe He has commanded the assembly of His people to praise Him with psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs.

Rich, I think what he is getting at is that he doesn't believe that the commands to sing in the New Testament are specifically commands for corporate singing, but can be interpreted broader than that and include both corporate singing, smaller-group singing (i.e. choirs), and solo singing.

Semper Fidelis · #19 (**permalink**) 09-06-2007, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elnwood

Quote:

Originally Posted by SemperFideles

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiefmusician

Where is corporate singing commanded?

Are you serious?

Do you believe that the Regulative Principle of Worship governs what is acceptable in worship or not? If not, then we might as well be talking about two different subjects. If you do, then your question would be odd considering you are leading Corporate Singing in violation of God's Will if you do not believe He has commanded the assembly of His people to praise Him with psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs.

Rich, I think what he is getting at is that he doesn't believe that the commands to sing in the New Testament are specifically commands for corporate singing, but can be interpreted broader than that and include both corporate singing, smaller-group singing (i.e. choirs), and solo singing.

Which is why I asked for the Scriptures that command solo singing. I've seen a lot of pragmatic answers and "seems to me" offered. I haven't seen a specific command for the singing of solos (and, No, a Cantor for a Responsorial Song is not a Solo in my estimation). Arguments presented are very subjective above. "Theologian wannabees" like Calvin completely disagree with Scott and offer detailed arguments from Scripture in favor of the Regulative Principle for Worship.

I have seen no arguments presented other than a preference and that singing, in general, is commanded. I disagree. Corporate singing is commanded and not solos.

Prove me wrong - from Scripture - because every one of those "seems to me" or "this works" arguments resounds in my ear like some Ephraimite telling his son why Jerusalem is too far when Bethel is nearby to do the same thing thanks to Jeroboam's foresight.

elnwood · #20 (**permalink**) 09-06-2007, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SemperFideles

Which is why I asked for the exegesis. I've seen a lot of pragmatic answers and "seems to me" offered. I haven't seen a specific command for the singing of solos (and, No, a Cantor for a Responsorial Song is not a Solo in my estimation). Arguments presented are very subjective above. "Theologian wannabees" like Calvin completely disagree with Scott and offer detailed arguments from Scripture in favor of the Regulative Principle for Worship.

The argument revolves around whether "singing" is strictly corporate or if it can include solos as well. The latter does not deny RPW. If Calvin made an argument against solos, you'll have to cite them, because I am not familiar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SemperFideles

I have seen no arguments presented other than a preference and that singing, in general, is commanded. I disagree. Corporate singing is commanded and not solos.

Prove me wrong - from Scripture - because, frankly, the argumentation has been pretty facile up to this point.

Rich, you said "corporate singing" is commanded and not solos. Scott is arguing that singing in general is commanded. I haven't seen either of you present a Scripture to argue from, so the accusation applies to both. Perhaps either one of you would like to present an exegesis from scripture to support your argument?