Does anyone here think they understand God's Holiness?

REVELATION SONG - Kari Jobe - posted by Kari Jobe (karijobemusic) - tangle.com SONG - Kari Jobe

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Rev. Andrew J. Barnes
Husband of Dena
Father of Oliver
Master of Bruce
Pastor of Tchula Presbyterian Church

What can I say, I like blogs!

I'm still working on that whole understanding of God's holiness myself.

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Josh Hicks, Chloë's Dad
Christ Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCGA
Facebook - The Calvinist Vent
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It is God that multiplies our sorrows.... God, as a righteous Judge, does it, which ought to silence us under all our sorrows; as many as they are, we have deserved them all, and more: nay, God, as a tender Father, does it for our necessary correction, that we may be humbled for sin, and weaned from the world by all our sorrows; and the good we get by them, with the comfort we have under them, will abundantly balance our sorrows, how greatly soever they are multiplied. - Matthew Henry

Good point Josh. Me too.

This is an excellent point. By the same token, someone can disregard God's holiness, or someone can strive to understand and apply it. I believe Rev. Barnes may have been taking the former in his cross hairs.

Cheers,

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Adam B., Wine Country, California, PCA

"I fear not to hold with Junius, de Politia Mosis cap. 6, that he who was punishable by death under that Judicial law, is punishable by death still; and he who was not punished by death then, is not to be punished by death now."

Good point. I was just expressing my own lack of progress in this area.

Having come from exactly that type of worship, I can say they have a zeal without knowledge. They haven't searched the scriptures so that they can know the true and living God. They are happy with the one they have created that is approachable and touchy feely. Not the one that thundered from Mt. Sinai. Their view of the holiness of God is such that they can feel awe but it is a safe awe that gives mystery to their worship and keeps it interesting.

This concert style worship is the centerpiece of their religion. Teaching is short and sweet while the worship can last hours. Most people have been to concerts and experienced the hypnotic effects of them. That is the drug that keeps them coming back, that along with the relieving of their conscience that they are safe from hell because they worshiped with such feeling.

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Traci
Lynnwood OPC
"I have taken all my good deeds, and all my bad deeds, and cast them through each other in a heap before the Lord, and fled from both, and betaken myself to the Lord Jesus Christ, and in him I have sweet peace."--David Dickson

That is very well put and I say that from experience in that kind of "church atmosphere" in the past as well.

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Lee Dodd | Twitter: @LeeDodd
Layperson - FBC Daisetta
Dayton, TX

"We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work." - John 9:4

I really don't feel comfortable when people play music I'm not familiar with Those people seemed way too happy and the raising of their hands shows they obviously don't know how to worship. If they really understood the holiness of God they would sing a Psalm or fall on their faces weeping or something. I mean, I wouldn't fall to my face weeping since it shows my theological prowess to remain stoic, but still. Their worship was far too different from mine to be proper in any sense.

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Andrew Thornquist My Photo Album
Calvinistic Baptist
Ukiah, California
To follow Christ was the best decision God made for me!

Thank you!!! This deserves a "post of the year" award. You are so, so, correct in your assessment. The "Revelation Song" gets sung at our schools' chapel service ad nauseum. Some of the other CCM "tunes" I've heard are actually heretical. Another teacher, who is a PCA elder, and I actually had to talk with the music teacher about the content of some of her song selections.

This "concert-worship" style both angers and saddens me.

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Michael Masztal
Ruling Elder, Chapel By The Sea, ARP
Melbourne Beach, FL

Will you help me understand why this is so?

...I'm not a fan of this stuff, I am just want to understand why you think that is so.

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Megan Meisberger
River Hills Community Church - EFCA (yes... same as charliejunfan)
Janesville, WI

Wife of matt.meisberger

<---- Naming my first son after him. My husband was saved while reading Religious Affections.

Wow Traci, that's one of the most accurate and fair descriptions of experience seeker worship I've ever read. Well done and thanks for sharing.

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Bob Vigneault C.O.L, L.E., G.E, Dr.O.P., O.U.T.
The Heartbeat of Heaven (blog)
Deacon/Christ Presbyterian Church, Janesville, WI OPC www.christ-opc.org

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Megan... he's not being serious. He's being marvellously amusing. Bravo Sir! Bravo!

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Jonathan Hunt

Elder holding forth the word of life at:
Cheltenham Evangelical Free Church (Confessionally Based)
Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, United Kingdom

Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.
-- Thomas Elsworth

Whew!

I need to take Facetiousness 101.

I'm by no means serious in that post, Megan. Let me get to my point:

Traci's post was fantastic. However, to the original question, I am not about to consider whether or not those people "understand the holiness of God." I don't know them. I don't know their hearts or their theological knowledge. I don't know if they all do in fact have concert-style worship as the centerpiece of their religion. What I do know is, there may be strong men and women in the faith in that audience who are much more godly than I and I'm not prepared to slanderously conclude that they don't know the holiness of God like I know it.

There is nothing that shows me that those in the audience don't understand the holiness of God because they raised their hands, approved of the guitars, or sang an uninspired song. I love "Revelation Song," have it on my iPod, and worship God by singing it to Him at times. While I'm not planning on going to a pretty charismatic concert like that, I have worshiped at concerts by Casting Crowns and other groups. Yes, there was a lot noise. And people. And hands. And emotions. But it was sincere worship and God was honored by it.

Of course there are many people who fit squarely in Traci's charitable assessment; just because someone goes to that type of concert doesn't mean they automatically fit in that category though.

Exactly. I read a book recently which suggested that if we really took God's holiness seriously we would, instead of issuing worshipers with a bible and church notices, we would issue them with crash helmets and strap them into their seats...

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Paul
No denomination, affiliated with FIEC
"Deliver me from worldly dispositions, for I am born from above and destined for glory" - Valley of Vision
"They think it strange that you do not plunge with them into the same flood of dissipation" - Peter

Thanks for your post, Andrew. You are correct in that we don't know their hearts, etc., but it doesn't necessarily mean we are making a hasty generalization either. Much of our knowledge is based on our experiences. As children and young adults who attended church with our parents, our experiences will give us the impression that all churches are similar to the one we went to and if it happened to be a Word and sacrament based church, then thank God for his provision. But once you start to look around at other churches, you will see the radical differences in teaching and worship styles.

I've seen too much of this, e.g., "heartfelt worship without much knowledge" at the Christian school where I teach. In my observations here many of the kids that have been going to school here for years and receiving daily religious instruction cannot give a cogent presentation of the Gospel nevermind elucidate other important Biblical doctines. These students are generally the ones that go to the "happy-clappy", 45 minutes of praise songs/choruses in front of a praise band followed by a banal sermon on how we need to be like Jesus. The school also needs to take some of the blame for this. Some of the other teachers' Bible classes were little more than Bible stories with some added narcissistic "journal keeping". This distressed me to no end. Another teacher who is a PCA elder and I are changing the teaching away from the WWJD?/Jesus is my best friend to the what DID Jesus do on the cross.

No parent complaints......yet.

You are correct Andrew that there are Christians in that audience. I was one of them. But, they are there despite the worship style and despite the lack of teaching and knowledge and, please God, they will be pulled OUT of that miry clay and set on a rock as I was.

The style of worship in my experience is entirely fleshly and not sober and with fear and trembling. Those people have no fear of God before their eyes. God is a teddy bear that wants the best for them always. He is a gentleman that woos them, not a Father who chastens those he loves.

Everyone does what is right in their own eyes. It is a very loosey goosey environment.

So singing "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain!" to this type of music makes it "Fleshly" or "unholy"? Where does the Bible say that?

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jason d.
deacon @ Sovereign Joy Community Church
reformed baptist (LBC.1689)
fort worth (haltom city), texas

-----Added 9/25/2009 at 07:35:54 EST-----

I'm grateful for what I've learned about the biblical "regulative principle of worship" here on Puritan Board.

Without stopping to consider God's claim on our corporate worship, it would be hard to give anything like this a second thought.

I listened to this without video, only the words and music. The words are good (e.g. "You are everything, I will adore You; Filled with wonder, awestruck wonder, at the mention of your Name").

The musicians were good as well, well coordinated and very mood producing (which is something good music can do).

Now, add the video and put the whole of this in context and consider corporate worship, as commanded by a Holy God who is rather explicit about what He wants His creatures to do.

Here are some possible problems with this from a biblical worship standpoint.

I'm not necessarily saying I agree with every single one as a violation of Scripture, but trying to look at this from the standpoint of the original post:

1) Total effect is much centered on the entertainment effect of the singer (sound effects, lighting effects, provocative dress of the singer)

2) Centered on the person singing, not on God

3) Centered on the personal feelings of experience of each individual audience member rather than centered on God, what He wants (regulative principle)

4) A woman leading "corporate worship"

5) Words are not Scripture

6) The long drawn out crescendo at the end , flamboyant, only reinforces that this is centered on the singer, her band, the personal experience of each person in her audience


By the way, I do much better with this listening to it without the theatrics of video. Yes, that way, it did actually cause me to meditate, albeit momentarily, on God's goodness.

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Scott
PCA
North Carolina


"Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)"
Hebrews 10:23

I have to agree with Josh I don't understand God's holiness well either. Just bc I go to a church which worships RPW doesn't mean that's where my heart is all the time. I have to admit that my mind wonders at times which shows my lack of awareness of God's holiness.

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sarah
WI
OPC
My Pastor's Sermons: Mark Jenkins...he's awesome!!!

So is there a place in the Bible where we are told what style of music we have to use?

If you are regulative principle do you use the instruments mentioned in the Bible? Do you not use amplification (we aren't told to use that)? Use lights? Use electricity?

There has been passionate discussion and threads on some of these topics recently which can be retrieved using the search function.

Suffice it to say, here, a woman leading repetitive chorus not in Scripture, with sound and light special effects and with people each individually doing their own thing is not really corporate worship. Not as Scripture defines it.

It may be a lot of things. It may be good quality music. It may be emotionally thrilling and uplifting. It may be enjoyable to experience. It may even "minister."

But it's not the corporate worship of our Triune God who ordains both the ends of His Worship and the means by which His creatures are to worship Him.

Psalm 96:9 commands us to worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness: fear before him, all the earth. That would seem to limit the music to something more serious and sober. The assemblies were repeatedly called solemn assemblies. If we would all use the psalter as our guide, which I believe is it's purpose, we would be guided by the lyrics in the psalm as to whether the tune was solemn, joyful, restive, etc. We would be guarded by the Word from doing anything untoward in worship. The Psalms are all God centered and not me centered which is as it should be.

Leviticus 10:1

Hebrews 12:18-29
Hebrews 10:26-31

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John
Member
Christ Presbyterian Church (OPC)
Salt Lake City, Utah
www.christpres.net

These threads on music are the ones that always cause much emotion. The methodist church I use to attend use to worship much like the video displayed above. I can see the danger in worship like this. The lights, music, and songs are played because its what the youth likes,totally disregarding lyrics and God-centered worship. I also see the problem with a female leading worship. I dont really know. I do know I enjoy these threads.

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"I thank Thee that many of my prayers have been refused. I have asked amiss and do not have, I have prayed from lusts and been rejected, I have longed for Egypt and been given a wilderness".-Unknown

Julio, Amaya
Clifton, NewJersey
Reformed Baptist Church of North Bergen

Amen! I can't thank you officially yet, so let me do it here. I loved the satire in the original post.

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Cary
SBC
Newark, OH

If I may dare ask, Rev Barnes, what is the purpose of this thread?

It seems like we're just taking one video off the internet about our brothers and sisters in Christ who yes we all know are lacking in many areas, and just hammering away with no specific reason.

Traci, your assessment of much of modern emergent/charismanic churches are spot on, but what has that got to do with this video? In a thread about handling Pentecostalism/emotionalism or evangelical ecumenism sure it makes sense.

But what are we doing here? I know Kari Jobe but isn't it stretching it a little far when we're criticizing so much about them/their movement that isn't apparent within the video at all?

I am Reformed yes and I lean towards EP even, yet I can't bring myself to so readily judge based on a 7 min music video.

-----Added 9/26/2009 at 08:51:23 EST-----

I posted then read Andrew's post. I would have just on this.

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Ewen
1689 LBCF
Assemblies of God Bible College
Singapore

These are great observations and touch on many important things.

Since you have done such a good job bringing them up, they invite further thought.

A lot of people are in the situation of being in broadly evangelical churches, and the Arminian influence, dispensationalism and lack of confession all that entails.

One of the things that has been helpful is something that reformed theology teaches as a doctrine of scripture.

Perseverance of the saints. We can look for good fruit, not perfection, but good fruit in the lives of the people leading and engaging in these activities.

I have known many who lead and followed in this kind of exuberance and presentation and have shown great perseverance in their faith. Inasmuch as I can know, they are Christians and prove it out with their lives.

I've also known many, many others who follow this with much profession and emotion for a time, and then fall away or fall into serious error.

It's helpful to engage people who once gave much appearance of what they would call worship, much profession of their faith, and then lose interest.

And if we encounter people who assume, as many do, that worship is about them, how they feel, what they want, what their imaginations would have God to be... we want to engage that too, and trust God for the results.

I come from a Pentecostal/charismatic background. There is a lot of stuff I can't accept going on there, which is why I'm now in a PCA church instead of a charismatic church. But in my opinion some posts on this thread are painting with too broad a brush, throwing the baby out with the bathwater, whatever metaphor one chooses to use. I've known people for whom the music is their religion, and I've known people who love God with all their hearts and souls and minds and strength and want nothing else but to pour that love out to Him fervently. I've seen cranked-up hype, and I've seen God moving, and those who have seen both can tell the difference. And maybe the video in the OP is the former, but that doesn't mean there is none of the latter. I've been there.

And there are people there who don't come out and join a Reformed church, not because they're immature, not because they don't want sound doctrine, but because they want God Himself, not just talk about Him, and want opportunities to express their love for Him in worship, and feel that in Reformed churches all you get are a lot of half-hearted people going through the motions and listening to sermons that reaffirm that they are already believing the right things and approaching everything the right way. And maybe that's painting with too broad a brush as well. But my point is that maybe both sides - and since I'm not talking to them right now but to us, maybe WE - need to stop pointing fingers and take the logs out of our own eyes, and ask why people who love God so deeply and sincerely don't feel at home with us, instead of smugly satisfying ourselves that the problem must be them.

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Mark Hettler
PCA
Central NJ

God answers prayers in one of two ways: "Yes," or "I have something better."

OK well it is a really big problem with this kind of concert that stirs the flesh up into a kind of frenzy. Especially at the end...with the flashing lights and the drum beat going faster and faster. Strange fire anyone?

However, at the same time, we cannot blanket statement that all people who worship God with contemporary songs or music know nothing of his holiness or arent worshipping. I mean I'm in the church of Scotland, and I can tell you, some of the greatest fellowship, worship times and evangelical churches in our denomination, are the ones who have the modern worship and often times the churches with organs etc... are the most dead.

It's the same with say the Mars hill movement and "The Village Church" and other big churches like John Pipers'. I mean they are sound in doctrine and in gospel, love God, hold to his holiness and yet they do contemp. worship.

So I'm just making that distinction, I think it's important we don't go off the deep end and say well all contemporary stuff is bad. A lot of it is I admit but a lot of it is also not.

Keep in mind worldliness still existed when piano's were the most used instrument of the day.

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Lee Johnston
Church of Scotland (Presbyterian)
Paisley, Scotland
Ephesians 1:4-5
"In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will."

If any of them are saved, they understand something of God's holiness.

They don't understand what biblical worship is, or if they do, they've rejected it for entertainment with a smidgen of "worship"

I find this kind of worship depressing. It's difficult to hear the voice of God in it, because it's drowned out by Man.

Did God ever ask for this, anyway?

It's not simple, its not spiritual, its not Scriptural.

It's an unbiblical depressing emotinal rolloer-coaster.

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Richard
communicant member, FCoS
Perth, Scotland UK

His Name forever shall endure;
last like the sun it shall:
Men shall be blessed in Him,
and blessed all nations shall Him call (Ps. 72:17)

I'm going to risk and say this...




She's got a great voice.

Yeah. She's quite bonnie too.

Whether this is biblical minimalist worship is another Q.

Having said that, I'm not being self-righteous, because I'm willing to say that she and her friends, some of whom may be genuine brithers and sisters, may be further on in their sanctification and use of their gifts than I am. And that wouldn't be saying much.

A bonny lass? Haha that could only come from a Scot!

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~Gloria G.~
Bride of Warren G.
Member of Trinity Presbyterian Church, PCA, Southeast Georgia

"Turn my eyes from looking at worthless things; and give me life in your ways." Psalm 119:37

Sometimes people are just looking for the style of worship which they like regardless of what God's Word says. Something that entertains them and keeps their interest. they find unaccompanied psalms boring and they don't want to be bored during worship. They want to be entertained.

Re Reformed churches, I'm sure that just because they have the worship model biblical or close to biblical doesn't mean that the hearts of many of those worshipping can't be far from the Lord.

But you get this in all sorts of churches. It's difficult/impossible to legislate for that, except to keep an eye on whose on the communion roll and church discipline and preach good quality sermons, but following unbiblical worship practices won't get you any closer to hearts bing in the right place or take anyone closer to God.

Where people start hankering after hymns and worship songs rather than psalms, and instrumental music rather than the simplicity of the human voice, it's no sign of spirituality.

It's probably a sign that they're bored with the loathsome bread of the Psalms.

Many or all of those in the video may understand the holiness of God better than me, which wouldn't be saying much, but they don't understand or they reject biblical worship for what they've got, which isn't much.

It might also help in looking at this if we try to distinguish this carefully.

A great many of us have had exposure to what is termed "contemporary worship."

While the focus might easily shift to tastes and preferences over music style, it really is much deeper than that.

The issue is how does God command His people, gathered together, to corporately worship Him. This is a specific discipline of the Christian life, an ordinary part of the life of a Christian. It is distinguished from doing other things that are intended to please God. In a sense, everything we do is an act of worship. Even what we enjoy doing for pleasure, our recreations and entertainments. But that is not corporate worship.

Here's what it's not about:

1) Whether people who profess Christ and who are doing things that are not biblical and calling them worship are Christians or not.

Christians can and do believe wrong things, and do wrong things out of ignorance, out of disobedience. God forgives sin, but yet being ignorant or rebelling when God has revealed His will by His Word is not acceptable for the Christian.

2) Whether those things are in, and of themselves, inherently sinful.

Going to a loud performance with sound effects and visual effects designed to stimulate the mood and the senses is not inherently sinful. It might be sinful in some ways it is used but it is not inherently evil. God made music, gave us the talent, and allows us to enjoy it.

But the real question is... Is this the corporate worship of God's people.

We can easily see from Scripture that biblical teaching, singing psalms, praying and taking the sacraments are things God instructed His people to do and we see it by example in Scripture.

But let's go more broadly- do we see mud wrestling being taught or exampled when God's people came together in worship? Did we see interpretive dance? Do we see pantomime presentations? Excepting God's physical manifestation in things like His shekinah Glory in the Old Testament, did we see man designing his own sound effects, lighting effects, and provocative effects that would call attention to a person?

There might be nothing wrong in attending these things- for pleasure and entertainment (outside the sabbath day), but is it how our holy God has commanded he be worshiped corporately when they come together as His people?

Mark H. you caught yourself and said truly that you also painted Reformed worship with a broad brush also.

I said what I said with full knowledge of that type of worship. I was for 20+ years in that audience waving my hands and swaying with the music. I know from all those years how the music was arranged specifically to lead us into an emotional state where we would be like a drunk person who suddenly starts repenting of all his wrongs. I think they truly thought that this was bringing us closer to God. They do truly, as I said before, have a zeal that is without knowledge.

I struggled for years with anger at my old church, once I became reformed. I was mad that they didn't teach me the Scriptures that we all carried into church but read very little of. I felt betrayed. I now know that I was lost and that they are lost also. I have compassion now for them in their ignorance of the true gospel.

I don't think that I was unique in that I was so ignorant of what Scripture truly teaches about Christ. They really are totally clueless unless they have some aquaintance with someone from a Reformed or Presbyterian church, which I did not have. The only thing I knew and was taught was that there were other churches out there that were dead churches that didn't have the Holy Spirit. They were not Spirit filled and we were.

I was not expressing my view of Reformed worship and painting with a broad brush, I was articulating how many charismatics view Reformed worship and acknowledging that they paint with a broad brush. And my point is that, while both sides may be painting each other with broad brushes, maybe it's time for our side to look at ourselves instead of assuming that whenever people are uncomfortable with our side the problem must be them.

I am not arguing for or against any style of worship. I am not arguing for or against continuationism. I am saying that I know godly people in that camp, and their reasons for not coming out of that camp and joining ours are not what has been attributed to them here.

As has been mentioned, there are numerous threads and long, drawn-out discussions regarding worship and music here on the PB. What I need to know is this:
I understand how worship ought to be conducted in the corporate worship service in the church proper. But where is there place for music like this? Or, where is there place for Christian musicians in general? What if Steve Camp, who is Reformed, plays with a band on stage and people get a little rowdy? What is inherently wrong with what took place in this video?

I'm not trying to prove any point. I'm just looking for the distinction.

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Donald P. Grubb
theol46@embarqmail.com

Berean Baptist Church, Mansfield, OH
Mansfield, OH

John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing.
The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.