RPW: Are we commanded to recite parts of Confessions or Creeds in Worship?

Romans922 · #1 (**permalink**) 07-24-2009, 11:03 AM

I see many reformed churches in their worship confessing creeds or reciting confessions/catechisms as a congregation. Is this commanded by God in Scripture? (i.e. is this part of the RPW?).

***Semper Fidelis*** · #2 (**permalink**) 07-24-2009, 11:08 AM

What if that creed or confession is presented in the form of an oath or a vow? (i.e. This we confess and will be faithful unto...)

**Herald** · #3 (**permalink**) 07-24-2009, 11:10 AM

Andrew, your thread title and the question in the poll are slightly different. Commanding and voluntarily reciting are two different things.

The church should never command the recitation of a man made creed. I place the emphasis on the word "command."

JBaldwin · #4 (**permalink**) 07-24-2009, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herald

Andrew, your thread title and the question in the poll are slightly different. Commanding and voluntarily reciting are two different things.

The church should never command the recitation of a man made creed. I place the emphasis on the word "command."

Thanks, I voted other for that reason. I would say, no, it is not commanded.

Romans922 · #5 (**permalink**) 07-24-2009, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Semper Fidelis

What if that creed or confession is presented in the form of an oath or a vow? (i.e. This we confess and will be faithful unto...)

Good question.

I was merely asking about...The Apostle's/Nicene, etc. Or a public confession of sin (together) which is not directly from the Word of God. Something like that. I wouldn't be opposed to your question being answered on this thread though.

-----Added 7/24/2009 at 11:14:36 EST-----

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herald

Andrew, your thread title and the question in the poll are slightly different. Commanding and voluntarily reciting are two different things.

The church should never command the recitation of a man made creed. I place the emphasis on the word "command."

Sorry,

Not the Church command, I meant are we commanded by God in Scripture. See the OP.

***Semper Fidelis*** · #6 (**permalink**) 07-24-2009, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Romans922

Quote:

Originally Posted by Semper Fidelis

What if that creed or confession is presented in the form of an oath or a vow? (i.e. This we confess and will be faithful unto...)

Good question.

I was merely asking about...The Apostle's/Nicene, etc. Or a public confession of sin (together) which is not directly from the Word of God. Something like that. I wouldn't be opposed to your question being answered on this thread though.

Oaths and vows and confession of sin are all elements of worship.

The reason I point it out is that it's really not apropos to simply refer to creeds as "manmade documents" if we believe they are standard expositions of the Scriptures. Even as we would not fault a Pastor for extemporaneous prayer or using illustrations that are not found directly in the Scripture, if the Confessional statement communicates the content of Scripture then it is not inappropriate for men to confess it. We could deny every act of speech in a worship service as "man made" unless the man was simply parroting Scripture if we convince ourselves that the standard is the introduction of nothing that was directly inspired.

I ask the question about the Creeds because the specific recital of a Creed is not commanded but oaths and vows are (on occassion). I'm asking this question out loud because my out loud wondering is that a reciting of a Confession could be construed as a religious oath.

Romans922 · #7 (**permalink**) 07-24-2009, 11:22 AM

So does God command it? Meaning then, can it be done?

***Semper Fidelis*** · #8 (**permalink**) 07-24-2009, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Romans922

So does God command it? Meaning then, can it be done?

You asking me?

I'm clarifying for others to weigh in on.

Romans922 · #9 (**permalink**) 07-24-2009, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JBaldwin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herald

Andrew, your thread title and the question in the poll are slightly different. Commanding and voluntarily reciting are two different things.

The church should never command the recitation of a man made creed. I place the emphasis on the word "command."

Thanks, I voted other for that reason. I would say, no, it is not commanded.

Again, I didn't say If the Church commands, I asked Is it commanded, and my OP stated does God command... Just clarifying.

Reepicheep · #10 (**permalink**) 07-24-2009, 04:49 PM

Obviously all this depends on how strictly one interprets the RPW.

Does God command we meet in a building for worship...no, but most do.
Does God command us to wear robes when leading worship, no, but we should

Does God command us to wear suits and ties when leading worship?
Does God command the posture of our prayers during worship? No, but there are multiple postures as examples in Scripture (of which sitting isn't really one)

RPW questions are important, but not all together as answerable as we sometimes think.

Does God command us to recite creeds/confession statements during worship? No, but we certainly may. Paul may have used a creedal statement in Ephesians 4:4-6. Obviously this creed was inscripturated, but so long as a creedal statement recitation is Scriptural, it seems to not violate the RPW...depending on how strictly one holds to the RPW...as our Confession defines?

I find these RPW questions so interesting.

OPC'n · #11 (**permalink**) 07-24-2009, 05:21 PM

I said yes. I think the creeds say what the Bible teaches only in a different way....sort of like when a preacher preaches he teaches what the Bible says in his own words or he prays what the Bible says but in his own words. The creeds are the same thing....they might not be word for word of the Bible, but they say the truths of the Bible and I think we should profess such things.

he beholds · #12 (**permalink**) 07-24-2009, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TranZ4MR

I said yes. I think the creeds say what the Bible teaches only in a different way....sort of like when a preacher preaches he teaches what the Bible says in his own words or he prays what the Bible says but in his own words. The creeds are the same thing....they might not be word for word of the Bible, but they say the truths of the Bible and I think we should profess such things.

I like her answer, but I voted no b/c I don't think it is "commanded." I do think it is permissible.

**Jeff_Bartel** · #13 (**permalink**) 07-24-2009, 06:34 PM

See RPW and the reading of Confessions/Creeds

It is my conviction that the recitation of creeds are not permissible via the Regulative Principle. I think that to categorize the regular recitation of creeds into oaths or vows is not defendable from scripture, or the Westminster Confession. The Westminster Confession purposefully put "Of Lawful Oaths and Vows" after the section "Of Religious Worship, and the Sabbath Day". I believe by doing so, they convey that oaths/vows are not to be a part of regualar worship, but as the confession states "upon just occasion" are to be used.

By definition, they define an oath as:

Quote:

I. A lawful oath is a part of religious worship,[1] wherein, upon just occasion, the person swearing solemnly calleth God to witness what he asserteth, or promiseth, and to judge him according to the truth or falsehood of what he sweareth.[2]
1. Deut. 10:20; Isa. 45:23; Rom. 14:11; Phil. 2:10-11
2. Exod. 20:7; Lev. 19:12; Rom. 1:9; II Cor. 1:23; 11:31; Gal. 1:20; II Chr. 6:22-23

When it comes to worship, are we really trying to back up the truth of our confession by calling God as a witness to testify that it is so? IMHO, I think that this is a wrong application of the right and legitimate use of creeds.

Kauffeld · #14 (**permalink**) 07-24-2009, 06:41 PM

I said yes. I see it as part of the teaching ministry- similar to preaching. Just like in:

Nehemiah 8:8: So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

I see it simply as part of an exposition of scripture. Ezra and Nehemiah used extra biblical words in order to 'give the sense' to the people. Only the confession/creed is like a giant overview of the gospel.

**Herald** · #15 (**permalink**) 07-24-2009, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Semper Fidelis

Quote:

Originally Posted by Romans922

Quote:

Originally Posted by Semper Fidelis

What if that creed or confession is presented in the form of an oath or a vow? (i.e. This we confess and will be faithful unto...)

Good question.

I was merely asking about...The Apostle's/Nicene, etc. Or a public confession of sin (together) which is not directly from the Word of God. Something like that. I wouldn't be opposed to your question being answered on this thread though.

Oaths and vows and confession of sin are all elements of worship.

The reason I point it out is that it's really not apropos to simply refer to creeds as "manmade documents" if we believe they are standard expositions of the Scriptures. Even as we would not fault a Pastor for extemporaneous prayer or using illustrations that are not found directly in the Scripture, if the Confessional statement communicates the content of Scripture then it is not inappropriate for men to confess it. We could deny every act of speech in a worship service as "man made" unless the man was simply parroting Scripture if we convince ourselves that the standard is the introduction of nothing that was directly inspired.

I ask the question about the Creeds because the specific recital of a Creed is not commanded but oaths and vows are (on occassion). I'm asking this question out loud because my out loud wondering is that a reciting of a Confession could be construed as a religious oath.

Rich, I don't have a formed opinion at this moment as to whether compulsory recitation of a creed or confession is acceptable in worship. I lean towards a lawful view based on similar reasons that you articulated.

***Semper Fidelis*** · #16 (**permalink**) 07-24-2009, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff_Bartel

See RPW and the reading of Confessions/Creeds

It is my conviction that the recitation of creeds are not permissible via the Regulative Principle. I think that to categorize the regular recitation of creeds into oaths or vows is not defendable from scripture, or the Westminster Confession. The Westminster Confession purposefully put "Of Lawful Oaths and Vows" after the section "Of Religious Worship, and the Sabbath Day". I believe by doing so, they convey that oaths/vows are not to be a part of regualar worship, but as the confession states "upon just occasion" are to be used.

By definition, they define an oath as:

Quote:

I. A lawful oath is a part of religious worship,[1] wherein, upon just occasion, the person swearing solemnly calleth God to witness what he asserteth, or promiseth, and to judge him according to the truth or falsehood of what he sweareth.[2]
1. Deut. 10:20; Isa. 45:23; Rom. 14:11; Phil. 2:10-11
2. Exod. 20:7; Lev. 19:12; Rom. 1:9; II Cor. 1:23; 11:31; Gal. 1:20; II Chr. 6:22-23

When it comes to worship, are we really trying to back up the truth of our confession by calling God as a witness to testify that it is so? IMHO, I think that this is a wrong application of the right and legitimate use of creeds.

Jeff,

Appreciate the concern. Some of the RPW on the propriety of oaths and vows in worship is taken from the Torah and that's where we also see semi-regular (albeit not weekly) pattern for the assembly of the people of God to vow fealty to a Confession of Faith of sorts. I'm thinking of the natural ampitheater between Mounts Ebal and Gerizim. In that case the exact words were dictated by Scripture but I'm wondering if the general equity might apply.

I'm not thinking weekly Confession per se but, as appropriate, in the context of a religious oath as a congregation.

ADKing · #17 (**permalink**) 07-24-2009, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Semper Fidelis

Jeff,

Appreciate the concern. Some of the RPW on the propriety of oaths and vows in worship is taken from the Torah and that's where we also see semi-regular (albeit not weekly) pattern for the assembly of the people of God to vow fealty to a Confession of Faith of sorts. I'm thinking of the natural ampitheater between Mounts Ebal and Gerizim. In that case the exact words were dictated by Scripture but I'm wondering if the general equity might apply.

I'm not thinking weekly Confession per se but, as appropriate, in the context of a religious oath as a congregation.

Yes, such an activity would be considered covenanting which our forefathers did in 1638 and 1643. Much is written about what this involves, its biblical precedents and how it should be done. This was distinguished from congregational recitation of a creed which is rejected in the Directory of Worship de facto by its absence. This was a conscious decision since it was going on in the continental churches.