Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 40 of 47

Worship discuss Recitation of the Lord's Prayer in the The Church forums; Is it a common practice among Reformed churches to recite the Lord's Prayer verbatim during worship services? I'm curious because I recently visited an OPC ...

  1. #1
    cih1355 is offline. Puritanboard Junior
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    1,220

    Recitation of the Lord's Prayer

    Is it a common practice among Reformed churches to recite the Lord's Prayer verbatim during worship services? I'm curious because I recently visited an OPC church in the San Diego area and the Lord's Prayer was recited during the worship service.
    Curt

  2. #2
    BobVigneault's Avatar
    BobVigneault is offline. Bawberator
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,943
    We do it frequently, maybe once a month. (OPC)
    When it comes to havoc, I WREAK!
    Bob Vigneault
    Seventy And Fourteen (blog)
    The Heartbeat of Heaven (blog)
    Spiritual Warfare (blog)
    Member, Grace Evangelical Free Church (Reforming!), Afton, WI
    Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

  3. #3
    Roldan's Avatar
    Roldan is offline. Puritanboard Junior
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    1,186
    Quote Originally Posted by cih1355 View Post
    Is it a common practice among Reformed churches to recite the Lord's Prayer verbatim during worship services? I'm curious because I recently visited an OPC church in the San Diego area and the Lord's Prayer was recited during the worship service.
    Yes, its common. And even though we know that in Christ teaching us how to pray he gave us that Lord's Prayer outline, we still insist on reciting it verbatim as if that was His intent. Some will argue that He meant for us to recite it verbatim but a close examination of the context will teach us otherwise considering the fact that our Lord was actually correcting and teaching His students that REPETITIOUS PRAYER IS MEANINGLESS, lol I scratch my head as to how we so easily overlook that point and rather stay faithful to our presbyterian traditions on this matter rather than being faithful to the text and Sola Scriptura, its just a tradition passed down through the centuries. We recite it at the Church I attend in spanish but I refrain because of my position, not that its bad in and of itself to recite it verbatim but why would I do it if I don't agree, that would be going against my conscience and I'm just not like that.

    My advice to you bro or sis would be just to learn from the content of the Prayer and incorporate its principles into your prayer life.
    Richard W. Roldan "Ricky"
    Member and Teacher of Iglesia Presbiteriana Reformada Berea (PCA)
    Winter Haven, FL./ Under Care of the Southwest Presb.(PCA)

    http://urbanreformed.com

    " I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel," Paul

  4. #4
    Backwoods Presbyterian's Avatar
    Backwoods Presbyterian is offline. Puritanboard Doctor
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    17,146
    Blog Entries
    2
    It is also worth noting that the end of the prayer in Matthew is absent from the earliest manuscripts. Matthew 6:13 should end with "deliver us from evil". Much like the "end" of Mark's Gospel.

    "...for Yours is the Kingdom and the power and the glory forever". While true is not found until the 5th or 6th century.
    Rev. Benjamin P. Glaser, M. Div, ARP
    Pastor, Ellisville Presbyterian Church, ARP
    Ellisville, Mississippi

    ‎‎"Ministers of the Gospel, when dispensing the truths of God, must preach home to their own souls, as well as unto others. Sir's, we do not deliver truths or doctrines to you, wherein we ourselves have no manner of concern. No, our own souls are at the stake, and shall either perish or be saved eternally, as we receive or reject these precious truths which we deliver unto you. And truly, it can never be expected that we will apply the truths of God with any warmth or liveliness unto others, unless we first make a warm application thereof to our own souls. And if we do not feed upon these doctrines, and practise these duties, which we deliver to and inculcate upon you, though we preach unto others, we ourselves are but castaways." -- Ebenezer Erskine, "The Assurance of Faith", pg. 8

    Deo Vindice

  5. #5
    rescuedbyLove's Avatar
    rescuedbyLove is offline. Puritanboard Junior
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    1,667
    The PCUSA church I went to when I was a kid recites it every Sunday.
    Amber McLellan
    South Woods Baptist Church
    Memphis, TN

    And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation."
    Revelation 5:9

  6. #6
    Backwoods Presbyterian's Avatar
    Backwoods Presbyterian is offline. Puritanboard Doctor
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    17,146
    Blog Entries
    2
    Of course the real question should be what formulation do you use?

    debts, and debtors

    sins, and sinners

    or

    trespasses and trespasses against us
    Rev. Benjamin P. Glaser, M. Div, ARP
    Pastor, Ellisville Presbyterian Church, ARP
    Ellisville, Mississippi

    ‎‎"Ministers of the Gospel, when dispensing the truths of God, must preach home to their own souls, as well as unto others. Sir's, we do not deliver truths or doctrines to you, wherein we ourselves have no manner of concern. No, our own souls are at the stake, and shall either perish or be saved eternally, as we receive or reject these precious truths which we deliver unto you. And truly, it can never be expected that we will apply the truths of God with any warmth or liveliness unto others, unless we first make a warm application thereof to our own souls. And if we do not feed upon these doctrines, and practise these duties, which we deliver to and inculcate upon you, though we preach unto others, we ourselves are but castaways." -- Ebenezer Erskine, "The Assurance of Faith", pg. 8

    Deo Vindice

  7. #7
    Roldan's Avatar
    Roldan is offline. Puritanboard Junior
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    1,186
    Quote Originally Posted by rescuedbyLove View Post
    The PCUSA church I went to when I was a kid recites it every Sunday.

    So does my Church. Right at the backend of the Pastors congregational prayer, he ends it in the Lord's Prayer, but whatever.
    Richard W. Roldan "Ricky"
    Member and Teacher of Iglesia Presbiteriana Reformada Berea (PCA)
    Winter Haven, FL./ Under Care of the Southwest Presb.(PCA)

    http://urbanreformed.com

    " I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel," Paul

  8. #8
    larryjf's Avatar
    larryjf is offline. Puritanboard Senior
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    2,204
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Roldan View Post
    Some will argue that He meant for us to recite it verbatim but a close examination of the context will teach us otherwise considering the fact that our Lord was actually correcting and teaching His students that REPETITIOUS PRAYER IS MEANINGLESS, lol I scratch my head as to how we so easily overlook that point and rather stay faithful to our presbyterian traditions on this matter rather than being faithful to the text and Sola Scriptura, its just a tradition passed down through the centuries.
    the "vain repetitions" that Christ speaks of certainly can't be directed towards His prayer. I would not call anything that our Lord teaches to be "vain."
    Another way of looking at it is a prohibition against "repetitious babbling" since it points to a senseless repetition of meaningless words.

    I would think that the prohibition speaks more against what we see in some charismatic circles with their supposed speaking in tongues.
    Larry Bray
    Elder - Reformed Presbyterian Church of Boothwyn, PCA
    Boothwyn, PA - http://www.rpcb.org/
    Free Online Reformed Seminary - http://www.tnars.net
    -----------------------------------------------------
    Christian ritual costs nothing and is worth nothing. True Christian religion costs all that we have and is worth everything.

  9. #9
    Backwoods Presbyterian's Avatar
    Backwoods Presbyterian is offline. Puritanboard Doctor
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    17,146
    Blog Entries
    2
    One more thing...

    Look at Luke 11:1-4
    Rev. Benjamin P. Glaser, M. Div, ARP
    Pastor, Ellisville Presbyterian Church, ARP
    Ellisville, Mississippi

    ‎‎"Ministers of the Gospel, when dispensing the truths of God, must preach home to their own souls, as well as unto others. Sir's, we do not deliver truths or doctrines to you, wherein we ourselves have no manner of concern. No, our own souls are at the stake, and shall either perish or be saved eternally, as we receive or reject these precious truths which we deliver unto you. And truly, it can never be expected that we will apply the truths of God with any warmth or liveliness unto others, unless we first make a warm application thereof to our own souls. And if we do not feed upon these doctrines, and practise these duties, which we deliver to and inculcate upon you, though we preach unto others, we ourselves are but castaways." -- Ebenezer Erskine, "The Assurance of Faith", pg. 8

    Deo Vindice

  10. #10
    N. Eshelman's Avatar
    N. Eshelman is offline. Puritanboard Senior
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    2,583
    My congregation recites in the AM worship right after the pastoral prayer. I can take it or leave it.

    I do not think that the RPW prohibits it, so I am not opposed to it.

  11. #11
    rescuedbyLove's Avatar
    rescuedbyLove is offline. Puritanboard Junior
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    1,667
    Quote Originally Posted by larryjf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Roldan View Post
    Some will argue that He meant for us to recite it verbatim but a close examination of the context will teach us otherwise considering the fact that our Lord was actually correcting and teaching His students that REPETITIOUS PRAYER IS MEANINGLESS, lol I scratch my head as to how we so easily overlook that point and rather stay faithful to our presbyterian traditions on this matter rather than being faithful to the text and Sola Scriptura, its just a tradition passed down through the centuries.
    the "vain repetitions" that Christ speaks of certainly can't be directed towards His prayer. I would not call anything that our Lord teaches to be "vain."
    Another way of looking at it is a prohibition against "repetitious babbling" since it points to a senseless repetition of meaningless words.
    Anything you say without thinking, or without really meaning it from your heart, is vain. The words our Lord used were not vain when HE said them, but they can be when we say them.
    Amber McLellan
    South Woods Baptist Church
    Memphis, TN

    And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation."
    Revelation 5:9

  12. #12
    Roldan's Avatar
    Roldan is offline. Puritanboard Junior
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    1,186
    Quote Originally Posted by larryjf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Roldan View Post
    Some will argue that He meant for us to recite it verbatim but a close examination of the context will teach us otherwise considering the fact that our Lord was actually correcting and teaching His students that REPETITIOUS PRAYER IS MEANINGLESS, lol I scratch my head as to how we so easily overlook that point and rather stay faithful to our presbyterian traditions on this matter rather than being faithful to the text and Sola Scriptura, its just a tradition passed down through the centuries.
    the "vain repetitions" that Christ speaks of certainly can't be directed towards His prayer. I would not call anything that our Lord teaches to be "vain."
    Me neither. But like I said His intent was not for us to recite verbatim and because we have not been faithful to His teaching in taking His outline on HOW to pray, WE have in turn reduced His precious words into "vain repetition" because of our tradition, IMHO.


    Another way of looking at it is a prohibition against "repetitious babbling" since it points to a senseless repetition of meaningless words.

    I would think that the prohibition speaks more against what we see in some charismatic circles with their supposed speaking in tongues.
    It could be looked at that way but on the other hand, I don't think He had babbling sounds in mind when He instructed us on the Prayer but rather that when the hypocrites pray(using His words) they attempt to impress those around them by using a large quantity of words and most importantly those words do not come from the heart but become religious repetitions and therefore to God are meaningless. So again in my opinion I believe that reciting the Lord's Prayer verbatim and not seeing it soley for its model of prayer it has become vain and repetitious, heartless, robotic and religious hence meaningless.
    Richard W. Roldan "Ricky"
    Member and Teacher of Iglesia Presbiteriana Reformada Berea (PCA)
    Winter Haven, FL./ Under Care of the Southwest Presb.(PCA)

    http://urbanreformed.com

    " I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel," Paul

  13. #13
    Roldan's Avatar
    Roldan is offline. Puritanboard Junior
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    1,186
    Quote Originally Posted by nleshelman View Post
    I do not think that the RPW prohibits it, so I am not opposed to it.
    Actually if you hold to the view (and I believe the biblical view) that the Lord's Prayer is the ultimate MODEL on how to pray and not meant to be recited verbatim, then yes it would go against the RPW because we are not commanded to recite this prayer and incorporate it into our worship. As a matter of fact even if it was meant to be recited verbatim, it still is not commanded to be used in public worship and actually states to be done in private behind closed doors (Matt. 6:6) hmmmmm.

    So either way, many will still view it as being in violation of the RPW.
    Richard W. Roldan "Ricky"
    Member and Teacher of Iglesia Presbiteriana Reformada Berea (PCA)
    Winter Haven, FL./ Under Care of the Southwest Presb.(PCA)

    http://urbanreformed.com

    " I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel," Paul

  14. #14
    Davidius is offline. Inactive User
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    4,891
    Roldan,

    Are the angels being vain and repetitive who hover around God's throne and repeat "Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty. The earth is filled with his glory."
    Davidius
    Husband of Emily
    Member of All Saints Anglican Church - Chapel Hill (AMiA / Anglican Church of North America)
    Student: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, German and Classics

  15. #15
    larryjf's Avatar
    larryjf is offline. Puritanboard Senior
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    2,204
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Roldan View Post
    Another way of looking at it is a prohibition against "repetitious babbling" since it points to a senseless repetition of meaningless words.

    I would think that the prohibition speaks more against what we see in some charismatic circles with their supposed speaking in tongues.
    It could be looked at that way but on the other hand, I don't think He had babbling sounds in mind when He instructed us on the Prayer but rather that when the hypocrites pray(using His words) they attempt to impress those around them by using a large quantity of words and most importantly those words do not come from the heart but become religious repetitions and therefore to God are meaningless. So again in my opinion I believe that reciting the Lord's Prayer verbatim and not seeing it soley for its model of prayer it has become vain and repetitious, heartless, robotic and religious hence meaningless.
    I would respectfully disagree with you here. I think the Greek text points more to what I have described in my post.
    Thankfully there is room in Christ's kingdom for such differences
    Larry Bray
    Elder - Reformed Presbyterian Church of Boothwyn, PCA
    Boothwyn, PA - http://www.rpcb.org/
    Free Online Reformed Seminary - http://www.tnars.net
    -----------------------------------------------------
    Christian ritual costs nothing and is worth nothing. True Christian religion costs all that we have and is worth everything.

  16. #16
    Marrow Man's Avatar
    Marrow Man is offline. Drunk with Powder
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    11,853
    We use it during the morning worship service, right after the invocation.
    Tim Phillips
    Pastor, Midlane Park Presbyterian Church (ARP)
    Louisville, KY
    Husband of Scottish Lass
    Father of Grace Cameron Phillips
    My Blog: Gairney Bridge
    My Facebook/My Avatar

    Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

  17. #17
    Roldan's Avatar
    Roldan is offline. Puritanboard Junior
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    1,186
    Quote Originally Posted by Davidius View Post
    Roldan,

    Are the angels being vain and repetitive who hover around God's throne and repeat "Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty. The earth is filled with his glory."
    Of course not, but then again they are not fallen creatures corrupted by sin and therefore are joyfully and heartfully repetitive hence meaningful.
    Richard W. Roldan "Ricky"
    Member and Teacher of Iglesia Presbiteriana Reformada Berea (PCA)
    Winter Haven, FL./ Under Care of the Southwest Presb.(PCA)

    http://urbanreformed.com

    " I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel," Paul

  18. #18
    Roldan's Avatar
    Roldan is offline. Puritanboard Junior
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    1,186
    Quote Originally Posted by larryjf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Roldan View Post
    Another way of looking at it is a prohibition against "repetitious babbling" since it points to a senseless repetition of meaningless words.

    I would think that the prohibition speaks more against what we see in some charismatic circles with their supposed speaking in tongues.
    It could be looked at that way but on the other hand, I don't think He had babbling sounds in mind when He instructed us on the Prayer but rather that when the hypocrites pray(using His words) they attempt to impress those around them by using a large quantity of words and most importantly those words do not come from the heart but become religious repetitions and therefore to God are meaningless. So again in my opinion I believe that reciting the Lord's Prayer verbatim and not seeing it soley for its model of prayer it has become vain and repetitious, heartless, robotic and religious hence meaningless.
    I would respectfully disagree with you here. I think the Greek text points more to what I have described in my post.
    Thankfully there is room in Christ's kingdom for such differences

    I'm all for knowing greek and all that but you don't have to know greek to consider the whole context of the passage. The burden is on you to prove that when Christ was referring to the Scribes and Pharisees aka hypocrites they were speaking in some type of meaningless speech similar to the charasmatic movement.
    Richard W. Roldan "Ricky"
    Member and Teacher of Iglesia Presbiteriana Reformada Berea (PCA)
    Winter Haven, FL./ Under Care of the Southwest Presb.(PCA)

    http://urbanreformed.com

    " I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel," Paul

  19. #19
    Presbyterian Deacon's Avatar
    Presbyterian Deacon is offline. Puritanboard Graduate
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    3,541
    Quote Originally Posted by Backwoods Presbyterian View Post
    Of course the real question should be what formulation do you use?

    debts, and debtors

    sins, and sinners

    or

    trespasses and trespasses against us

    We are a "debtors" church.
    Trespassers will be shot!
    Sterling Harmon
    Presbyterian Church of Coventry (PCA)
    Coventry, CT
    Ruling Elder
    ________________

    "Whatever is laudable in our works proceeds from the grace of God."
    -- John Calvin, Institutes III:xv.3.

    "Our Lord God must be a good man, to be fond of worthless fellows. I cannot like them, and yet I, myself, am one."
    -- Martin Luther, Table Talk

    Interim Pulpit Supply of New England

    My Facebook

  20. #20
    Presbyterian Deacon's Avatar
    Presbyterian Deacon is offline. Puritanboard Graduate
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    3,541
    We recite it every Sunday after the Pastoral Prayer.
    I don't have a problem with it.
    Sterling Harmon
    Presbyterian Church of Coventry (PCA)
    Coventry, CT
    Ruling Elder
    ________________

    "Whatever is laudable in our works proceeds from the grace of God."
    -- John Calvin, Institutes III:xv.3.

    "Our Lord God must be a good man, to be fond of worthless fellows. I cannot like them, and yet I, myself, am one."
    -- Martin Luther, Table Talk

    Interim Pulpit Supply of New England

    My Facebook

  21. #21
    larryjf's Avatar
    larryjf is offline. Puritanboard Senior
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    2,204
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Roldan View Post
    I'm all for knowing greek and all that but you don't have to know greek to consider the whole context of the passage. The burden is on you to prove that when Christ was referring to the Scribes and Pharisees aka hypocrites they were speaking in some type of meaningless speech similar to the charasmatic movement.
    Let me lighten my burden a bit then...
    The immediate context is clearly NOT referring to the Scribe and Pharisees...

    But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. (Mat 6:7)


    The "tongues" of the charismatic circles is very similar to Hindu practices...

    In the Kundalini (serpent power) practices they speak in this same kind of "tongues"
    Larry Bray
    Elder - Reformed Presbyterian Church of Boothwyn, PCA
    Boothwyn, PA - http://www.rpcb.org/
    Free Online Reformed Seminary - http://www.tnars.net
    -----------------------------------------------------
    Christian ritual costs nothing and is worth nothing. True Christian religion costs all that we have and is worth everything.

  22. #22
    caddy's Avatar
    caddy is offline. Puritanboard Senior
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    2,515
    Quote Originally Posted by Backwoods Presbyterian View Post
    It is also worth noting that the end of the prayer in Matthew is absent from the earliest manuscripts. Matthew 6:13 should end with "deliver us from evil". Much like the "end" of Mark's Gospel.

    "...for Yours is the Kingdom and the power and the glory forever". While true is not found until the 5th or 6th century.
    Interesting...

  23. #23
    Christusregnat's Avatar
    Christusregnat is offline. Puritanboard Professor
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    5,173
    Quote Originally Posted by cih1355 View Post
    Is it a common practice among Reformed churches to recite the Lord's Prayer verbatim during worship services? I'm curious because I recently visited an OPC church in the San Diego area and the Lord's Prayer was recited during the worship service.
    Curt,

    Do you sing certain hymns frequently at your church? If so, is that a "vain repetition"? I think not.

    The book of Psalms is a collection of liturgical prayers, hymns, medetations, etc. In other words, God intended that such divine odes would be recited by His people throughout the ages. Also consider the fact that Christ sang a collection of these Psalms with His disciples; was this vain repetition? I think not.

    As such, praying the Lord's Prayer as a liturgical device is nothing short of biblical, and enriches the worship service.

    Anything man does can be "empty words"; whether he makes it up on the spot, or whether it's written on a piece of paper for him to read. God wrote a bunch of prayers down for us to read: the Psalms. To argue against liturgical prayers is (to me) fairly short-sighted, and will inevitably lead to hypocrisy, due to the repetition of hymns we sing, and the fact that we're not spontaneously singing them.

    Also, the recitation of the Lord's Prayer is not a Presbyterian tradition: it is a universal, long-established custom, with a strong bibilcal and theological justification. The burden of proof would rest with anyone wishing not to recite it.

    Cheers,

    Adam
    Adam B., Old Dominion, RPCNA

    Ratio immutabilis facit praeceptum immutabile

  24. #24
    Roldan's Avatar
    Roldan is offline. Puritanboard Junior
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    1,186
    Quote Originally Posted by Christusregnat View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cih1355 View Post
    Is it a common practice among Reformed churches to recite the Lord's Prayer verbatim during worship services? I'm curious because I recently visited an OPC church in the San Diego area and the Lord's Prayer was recited during the worship service.
    Curt,

    Do you sing certain hymns frequently at your church? If so, is that a "vain repetition"? I think not.

    The book of Psalms is a collection of liturgical prayers, hymns, medetations, etc. In other words, God intended that such divine odes would be recited by His people throughout the ages. Also consider the fact that Christ sang a collection of these Psalms with His disciples; was this vain repetition? I think not.

    As such, praying the Lord's Prayer as a liturgical device is nothing short of biblical, and enriches the worship service.

    Anything man does can be "empty words"; whether he makes it up on the spot, or whether it's written on a piece of paper for him to read. God wrote a bunch of prayers down for us to read: the Psalms. To argue against liturgical prayers is (to me) fairly short-sighted, and will inevitably lead to hypocrisy, due to the repetition of hymns we sing, and the fact that we're not spontaneously singing them.

    Also, the recitation of the Lord's Prayer is not a Presbyterian tradition: it is a universal, long-established custom, with a strong bibilcal and theological justification. The burden of proof would rest with anyone wishing not to recite it.

    Cheers,

    Adam
    Adam, your comparing apples to oranges.

    And Presbyterian tradition or not its still tradition NOT based on a scriptural command, seems like everyone like to use the RPW card at convenience when it fits.

    And lastly the burden has been proven from the context of the passage, the burden is on those who want to recite it to prove that Christ intended it to be recited verbatim and not only that but recited in worship, and not be argued from tradition but to be argued exegetically from the TEXT. The fact that its in the bible is not an argument and even opens up a variety of things to enter.

    Prove your assertions exegetically from the text.
    Richard W. Roldan "Ricky"
    Member and Teacher of Iglesia Presbiteriana Reformada Berea (PCA)
    Winter Haven, FL./ Under Care of the Southwest Presb.(PCA)

    http://urbanreformed.com

    " I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel," Paul

  25. #25
    Roldan's Avatar
    Roldan is offline. Puritanboard Junior
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    1,186
    Quote Originally Posted by larryjf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Roldan View Post
    I'm all for knowing greek and all that but you don't have to know greek to consider the whole context of the passage. The burden is on you to prove that when Christ was referring to the Scribes and Pharisees aka hypocrites they were speaking in some type of meaningless speech similar to the charasmatic movement.
    Let me lighten my burden a bit then...
    The immediate context is clearly NOT referring to the Scribe and Pharisees...

    But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. (Mat 6:7)


    The "tongues" of the charismatic circles is very similar to Hindu practices...

    In the Kundalini (serpent power) practices they speak in this same kind of "tongues"
    Actually He is equating them as the same and He still is referring to the use of MANY words as opposed to unintelligable words.
    Richard W. Roldan "Ricky"
    Member and Teacher of Iglesia Presbiteriana Reformada Berea (PCA)
    Winter Haven, FL./ Under Care of the Southwest Presb.(PCA)

    http://urbanreformed.com

    " I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel," Paul

  26. #26
    sastark's Avatar
    sastark is offline. Puritanboard Graduate
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    3,188
    Jesus taught us: "When you pray say..."

    The WCF 21.3 says:

    Prayer, with thanksgiving, being one special part of religious worship, is by God required of all men: and, that it may be accepted, it is to be made in the name of the Son, by the help of His Spirit, according to His will, with understanding, reverence, humility, fervency, faith, love and perseverance; and, if vocal, in a known tongue.
    Therefore, when we pray in worship, it is NOT against the RPW to pray the Lord's prayer. Christ taught us to say these words when we pray (yes, it is also a model for all prayers, but He commanded that these words be said).

    Further, the WLC says:

    Q. 187. How is the Lord’s Prayer to be used?

    A. The Lord’s Prayer is not only for direction, as a pattern, according to which we are to make other prayers; but may also be used as a prayer, so that it be done with understanding, faith, reverence, and other graces necessary to the right performance of the duty of prayer.
    There is no prohibition in the Confession against using the Lord's prayer in worship. Those who claim it is contrary to the RPW bear the burden of proof and argue against the Confession.
    Seth Stark
    Member, Grace Presbyterian Church (OPC), Springfield, IL (though I live in Decatur, IL)

    (Formerly Ruling Elder, Communion Presbyterian Church (ARP), Irvine, CA)
    M.A. Science and Religion, Biola University
    The Ruling Elder Blog
    LIKE The Ruling Elder on Facebook!

  27. #27
    Christusregnat's Avatar
    Christusregnat is offline. Puritanboard Professor
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    5,173
    Quote Originally Posted by Roldan View Post
    Adam, your comparing apples to oranges.

    And Presbyterian tradition or not its still tradition NOT based on a scriptural command, seems like everyone like to use the RPW card at convenience when it fits.

    And lastly the burden has been proven from the context of the passage, the burden is on those who want to recite it to prove that Christ intended it to be recited verbatim and not only that but recited in worship, and not be argued from tradition but to be argued exegetically from the TEXT. The fact that its in the bible is not an argument and even opens up a variety of things to enter.

    Prove your assertions exegetically from the text.
    Hey Ricky,

    You're missing the forest: see my argument about the Psalms: liturgical prayers intended to be used in public worship; see the example of Christ singing a liturgical prayer at the Passover in the gospels.

    Cheers,

    Adam
    Adam B., Old Dominion, RPCNA

    Ratio immutabilis facit praeceptum immutabile

  28. #28
    Roldan's Avatar
    Roldan is offline. Puritanboard Junior
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    1,186
    Quote Originally Posted by sastark View Post
    Jesus taught us: "When you pray say..."

    The WCF 21.3 says:

    Prayer, with thanksgiving, being one special part of religious worship, is by God required of all men: and, that it may be accepted, it is to be made in the name of the Son, by the help of His Spirit, according to His will, with understanding, reverence, humility, fervency, faith, love and perseverance; and, if vocal, in a known tongue.
    Therefore, when we pray in worship, it is NOT against the RPW to pray the Lord's prayer.
    So then we could also incorporate in our worship all the sound Roman Catholic prayers that they use in their worship since it fits the WCF definition of prayer or how your using it anyways, right?


    Christ taught us to say these words when we pray (yes, it is also a model for all prayers, but He commanded that these words be said).
    This is where we would disagree, Christ commanded no such thing. He says to "in this manner therefore pray" NKJV or "Pray then like this" ESV "pray then in this way" ""This, then, is how you should pray" NIV

    This is the meaning in the greek


    Further, the WLC says:

    Q. 187. How is the Lord’s Prayer to be used?

    A. The Lord’s Prayer is not only for direction, as a pattern, according to which we are to make other prayers; but may also be used as a prayer, so that it be done with understanding, faith, reverence, and other graces necessary to the right performance of the duty of prayer.
    There is no prohibition in the Confession against using the Lord's prayer in worship. Those who claim it is contrary to the RPW bear the burden of proof and argue against the Confession.
    WHere is their exegetical support for using it as a prayer?

    BTW I'm just using the RPW argument for those who are strict RPWers
    Richard W. Roldan "Ricky"
    Member and Teacher of Iglesia Presbiteriana Reformada Berea (PCA)
    Winter Haven, FL./ Under Care of the Southwest Presb.(PCA)

    http://urbanreformed.com

    " I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel," Paul

  29. #29
    sastark's Avatar
    sastark is offline. Puritanboard Graduate
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    3,188
    Quote Originally Posted by Roldan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sastark View Post
    Jesus taught us: "When you pray say..."

    The WCF 21.3 says:

    Prayer, with thanksgiving, being one special part of religious worship, is by God required of all men: and, that it may be accepted, it is to be made in the name of the Son, by the help of His Spirit, according to His will, with understanding, reverence, humility, fervency, faith, love and perseverance; and, if vocal, in a known tongue.
    Therefore, when we pray in worship, it is NOT against the RPW to pray the Lord's prayer.
    So then we could also incorporate in our worship all the sound Roman Catholic prayers that they use in their worship since it fits the WCF definition of prayer or how your using it anyways, right?
    If the words are sound, then it doesn't matter who originally wrote them, it matters who is praying them.



    This is where we would disagree, Christ commanded no such thing. He says to "in this manner therefore pray" NKJV or "Pray then like this" ESV "pray then in this way" ""This, then, is how you should pray" NIV

    This is the meaning in the greek
    Luke 11:2

    ESV
    And he said to them, "When you pray, say:
    NIV
    He said to them, "When you pray, say:
    NKJV
    So He said to them, “When you pray, say:
    KJV
    And he said unto them, When ye pray, say,
    1550 Stephanus New Testament
    lego: to say (Strong's # 3004)
    1881 Westcott-Hort
    lego



    Further, the WLC says:

    Q. 187. How is the Lord’s Prayer to be used?

    A. The Lord’s Prayer is not only for direction, as a pattern, according to which we are to make other prayers; but may also be used as a prayer, so that it be done with understanding, faith, reverence, and other graces necessary to the right performance of the duty of prayer.
    There is no prohibition in the Confession against using the Lord's prayer in worship. Those who claim it is contrary to the RPW bear the burden of proof and argue against the Confession.
    WHere is their exegetical support for using it as a prayer?
    Again, the burden of proof is on you to show that the confession is wrong.

    BTW I'm just using the RPW argument for those who are strict RPWers
    Seth Stark
    Member, Grace Presbyterian Church (OPC), Springfield, IL (though I live in Decatur, IL)

    (Formerly Ruling Elder, Communion Presbyterian Church (ARP), Irvine, CA)
    M.A. Science and Religion, Biola University
    The Ruling Elder Blog
    LIKE The Ruling Elder on Facebook!

  30. #30
    larryjf's Avatar
    larryjf is offline. Puritanboard Senior
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    2,204
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Roldan View Post
    Actually He is equating them as the same and He still is referring to the use of MANY words as opposed to unintelligable(sic) words.
    The "vain repetitions" or "βατταλογήσητε"...if that font doesn't show up it's "Battalogesete" which means "to babble"

    so yes, it does mean unintelligible.

    The "much speaking" is, of course, in reference to the use of many words...but it must be taken in context of the rest of the verse, and clearly "vain repetitions" does mean "babbling"
    Larry Bray
    Elder - Reformed Presbyterian Church of Boothwyn, PCA
    Boothwyn, PA - http://www.rpcb.org/
    Free Online Reformed Seminary - http://www.tnars.net
    -----------------------------------------------------
    Christian ritual costs nothing and is worth nothing. True Christian religion costs all that we have and is worth everything.

  31. #31
    Ivan's Avatar
    Ivan is offline. Pastor
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    11,321
    Quote Originally Posted by BobVigneault View Post
    We do it frequently, maybe once a month. (OPC)
    I've done it in churches I've pastored....Baptist churches.
    [FONT=Book Antiqua][SIZE=2][COLOR=black]Ivan Schoen ~ [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Book Antiqua][SIZE=2][COLOR=black]The Church in [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Book Antiqua][SIZE=2][COLOR=black]Poplar Grove, IL[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
    [SIZE=2][FONT=Book Antiqua][COLOR=black]=================================[/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]
    [LEFT][SIZE=2][FONT=Book Antiqua][COLOR=black][SIZE=2][FONT=Book Antiqua][COLOR=black]"As a single footstep will not make a path on the earth, so a single thought will not make a pathway in the mind. To make a deep physical path, we walk again and again. To make a deep mental path, we must think over and over the kind of thoughts we wish to dominate our lives." ~ Henry David Thoreau[/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE][SIZE=2][FONT=Book Antiqua][COLOR=black][/LEFT]
    [/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]

  32. #32
    VirginiaHuguenot is offline. Puritanboard Librarian
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    23,794
    Blog Entries
    7
    It should be distinguished whether we are speaking of 1) the pastor alone reciting the words of the Lord's prayer in public worship; or 2) the pastor and the congregation reciting it in unison in public worship. For the former, I grant it is lawful, though not desirable every week. For the latter, I do not grant it to be lawful.

    The Westminster Directory of Public Worship says:

    And because the prayer which Christ taught his disciples is not only a pattern of prayer, but itself a most comprehensive prayer, we recommend it also to be used in the prayers of the church.
    William Gouge notes, "It [the Lord's Prayer] is not only a most absolute prayer in itself, but also a perfect pattern for other prayers" (A Guide to Go to God, or an explanation of the perfect Patterne of Prayer, the Lord's Prayer, Preface, cited in Richard A. Muller and Rowland S. Ward, Scripture and Worship: Biblical Interpretation & the Directory for Worship, p. 124, foonote 25).

    Archibald Hall expounds the DPW thus (Gospel Worship, Vol. 1, Chap. 5, Sec. 4, pp. 204, 207, 208):

    V. I shall, in the next place, enquire, Whether it is proper to use stated forms of prayer, when we call upon God?

    It is generally allowed, that if set forms are found, or agreeable to the will of God, they may be used by children, or such as are weak in knowledge. All are agreed in commending the prudence of our first reformers in England, who, by composing homilies and forms of prayer, endeavoured, as much as might be, to provide an help for the doleful ignorance of the clergy. But it is humbly submitted to the impartial consideration of the intelligent and serious, whether the advantages of praying freely, without being tied to a form, are not manifest and great? A perpetual confinement to the best forms, will be attended with such inconveniences as these:[7]
    ...
    That our blessed Lord: taught his disciples to pray, by giving them a general directory, is allowed; but that he ever tied them up to a form in praying cannot be proved. When he gave them a direction to pray, he said, "After this manner pray ye," etc. Matt 6:9; and again, "When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven," etc. Luke 11:2. It is probable enough our Lord gave these directions at different times, though the substance of them is the same. But the alteration of the words is enough to satisfy any unprejudiced mind, that he could not intend them to be used as a stated form. And the church of England has thought fit to differ in the words of the fifth petition from both. It is pretty clear, that the phrases when ye pray, say, Luke 11:2, and after this manner pray, ye, Matt 6:9, are precisely of the same import, and explain one another: and neither of them import, that the very words, which our Lord then expressed, were to be constantly used; but only that the scope of them should direct us in performing this duty. "Because the prayer which Christ taught his disciples is not only a pattern of prayer, but itself a most comprehensive prayer, we recommend it also to be used in the prayers of the church." Assembly's Directory for the public worship of God; on the article of praying after sermon. [DPW POSTPRAYER]

    [7] See Dr. Watts's Guide to Prayer, chapter 2, section 2.
    So it is certainly allowable for the minister to recite the Lord's Prayer in public worship, although there is a need to be alert to the dangers of roteness and quenching the Spirit which may naturally accompany set forms, even lawful ones.

    Upon which, John Brown of Haddington notes concerning the Westminster Shorter Catechism 99 (Exposition of the Shorter Catechism, pp. 342-343):

    Q. What special rule of direction in prayer hath God given us? -- A. That form of prayer which Christ hath taught his disciples, which is commonly called the Lord's prayer, because the Lord Jesus prescribed it.

    Q. Did Christ prescribe it as a form, the express words of which we are bound to use? -- A. No; but as a pattern of prayer, directing us what we should pray for, and in what order we should offer our requests.

    Q. How prove you that Christ did not prescribe it as an express form of prayer? -- A. Because in Matthew, who relates this form most exactly, Christ only says, After this manner pray ye; Matthew and Luke relate it differently; and Christ, and his prophets and apostles, used different expressions in prayer, Matth. xi. and xxvi. Acts i. and v. Eph. iii. John xvii, &c.

    Q. May none use set forms of prayer? -- A. Yes; young children, and such as through weakness are incapable to conceive prayer, may use them.

    Q. Why may not others confine themselves to set forms of prayer? -- A. Because to do so checks the teaching of God's Spirit, inverts the order of prayer, encourageth sloth, and is most absurd and unreasonable.

    Q. How doth confining ourselves to set forms of prayer check the teaching of the Spirit? -- A. As the form teacheth us what to pray for, which is the work ascribed to the Holy Ghost, Rom. viii. 26.

    Q. How doth it invert the order of prayer? -- A. As by this means, instead of our hearts regulating our words, the words of the form must regulate our heart.

    Q. How doth it encourage sloth? -- A. As it makes us careless of self-examination, and of study of the scriptures for instruction in prayer, and stirring up of our hearts to seek after the gift or grace of prayer.

    Q. How is it most absurd and unreasonable? -- A. It is as if a hungry beggar could not ask alms, or a drowning man cry for relief, without an express form.

    Q. Is not the Lord's prayer a most excellent pattern? -- A. Yes; for it is a short, full, and orderly prayer.
    Fisher's Catechism on WSC 99:

    Q. 9. What is the special rule of direction for the duty of prayer?

    A. It is that form of prayer which Christ taught his disciples, commonly called, The Lord's Prayer.
    ...
    Q. 13. Did Christ prescribe this prayer as a form, or as a pattern?

    A. He prescribed it as a PATTERN, for direction in the duty of prayer, Matt. 6:9 -- "After this MANNER pray ye."

    Q. 14. What is the difference between a form and a pattern of prayer?

    A. A form of prayer is a certain mode of expression, which must be used without the least variation; whereas a pattern is only a directory as to the matter, leaving the suppliant himself to clothe his desires with such words as are most adapted to his present circumstances.

    Q. 15. Why then is the Lord's prayer called, in the answer, that form of prayer which Christ taught his disciples?

    A. Because the words of this prayer, "may be used as a prayer" to God, equally with other scriptures, "so that it be done with understanding, faith, reverence, and other graces necessary to the right performance of the duty of prayer."[178]

    Q. 16. How does it appear, that this prayer is not designed for a form to the precise words of which Christ's disciples and followers are to be tied strictly down, in all after ages?

    A. This plainly appears, from its not containing expressly all the parts of prayer; and from its not being related by Matthew and Luke in the same manner.

    Q. 17. What are those parts of prayer which are not expressly contained in the Lord's prayer?

    A. They are the confession of our sins, and the thankful acknowledgment of God's mercies: neither of which are in express terms, but by consequence only, contained in the said prayer.

    Q. 18. From what part of this prayer may confession of sins be deduced?

    A. From the fifth petition; for, when we pray, "Forgive us our debts," we, by consequence, confess that we have debts to be forgiven.

    Q. 19. How is a thankful acknowledgment of mercies included in the Lord's prayer?

    A. When we pray, "Hallowed be thy name," we, of consequence, make a thankful acknowledgment of all those known instances, in which God's name has been glorified; and when we pray, "Give us this day our daily bread," we acknowledge the bounty of his providence, which has hitherto so kindly supplied our wants.

    Q. 20. How do the evangelists, Matthew and Luke, differ, as to the manner in which they relate this prayer?

    A. Though there be a perfect harmony between them, as to the sense or matter of the prayer; yet there is some difference as to the mode of expression, particularly in the fourth and fifth petitions.

    Q. 21. How do they differ in the fourth petition?

    A. Matthew has it, "Give us this day our daily bread," chap. 6:11; Luke, "Give us day by day our daily bread," chap. 11:3.

    Q. 22. What is the meaning of "give us this day?"

    A. It is a petition of what we want at present.

    Q. 23. What is imported in "give us day by day?"

    A. The expression imports, that the wants, which need to be supplied, will daily recur.

    Q. 24. How do the two evangelists differ, as to their manner of expressing the fifth petition?

    A. Matthew says, "Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors," chap. 6:12; Luke expresses it, "Forgive us our sins, as we forgive every one that is indebted to us," chap. 11:4.

    Q. 25. How do they differ as to the conclusion?

    A. Matthew has it; Luke leaves it out.

    Q. 26. What is the argument from all this, against the Lord's prayer being designed for a set form?

    A. The argument is, that if it had been designed for a set form, the two evangelists would have expressed it in the very same words, without the least variation.

    Q. 27. What argument is there from the practice of the apostles against its being a set form?

    A. That though several prayers of theirs are recorded in the New Testament, yet none of them use the express words of the Lord's prayer.

    Q. 28. Would it not seem that this prayer is commanded to be used as a form, from our Lord's prefixing these words to it: "When ye pray, SAY, Our Father," &c.? Luke 11:2.

    A. No more can be intended by this expression in Luke, "When ye pray, SAY ," than what is meant in the parallel place, Matt. 6:9:"AFTER THIS MANNER pray ye;" namely, to use the Lord's prayer as a directory; otherwise, Luke's form, and not Matthew's, should be followed.

    Q. 29. May none, at any rate, use set forms, however sound?

    A. If set forms are sound, or agreeable to the will of God, they may be used by children, or such as are weak in knowledge, till they acquire some insight in the principles of religion; and then they ought to be laid aside, and extemporary prayer practised and improved.

    Q. 30. But may not they, who are weak in knowledge, read sound forms as their prayers to God?

    A. No; they ought to repeat them, because the committing of them to memory will tend to imprint the matter of them more deeply on the mind, than the bare reading can possibly do: besides, there is not the least shadow of an example in scripture, for reading prayers to God on any account whatsoever.

    Q. 31. Why is the continued practice of set forms unwarrantable?

    A. Because the case and circumstances of the church in general, and every member of it, in particular, are so exceedingly various, that it is impossible any set form can correspond to them. Moreover, the continued practice of a set form, as it encourages sloth, so is an overlooking the aid of the Spirit, whose office it is to help our infirmities, when "we know not what we should pray for as we ought," Rom. 8:26.
    As for the question of the congregation reciting anything in public worship, apart from extraordinary vows or "amen" at the end of worship, I know of no Biblical warrant. The voice of the minister is the voice of the people to God.

    Thomas Cartwright, The Reply to the Answer of the Admonition, Chap. 2, 21st Division, Sec. 2, p. 109:

    For God hath ordained the minister to this end, that, as in public meetings he only is the mouth of the Lord from him to the people, even so he ought to be the only the mouth of the people from them unto the Lord, and that all the people should attend to that which is said by the minister, and in the end both declare their consent to that which is said, and their hope that it should so be and come to pass which is prayed, by the word "Amen;" as St Paul declareth in the epistle to the Corinthians, and Justin Martyr sheweth to have been the custom of the churches in his time.
    William Gouge, The Sabbath's Sanctification, pp. 3-4:

    Question 11. What duties are done by the people?
    ...
    (4.) Saying "amen" audibly to the blessing.
    ...
    As for an audible pronouncing of "amen," if the minds of them that pronounce it have been upon that which the minister uttered, and their hearts have given consent thereto, it compriseth altogether as much as the minister hath uttered. This is the only warrantable means for people to utter their minds in a congregation. It must, therefore, be uttered by everyone, altogether, so loud, as the minister may hear their consent, as well as they hear what he hath uttered in their name. For the one is as requisite as the other.
    Andrew

  33. #33
    Roldan's Avatar
    Roldan is offline. Puritanboard Junior
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    1,186
    If the words are sound, then it doesn't matter who originally wrote them, it matters who is praying them.

    So you wouldn't have a problem reciting the prayer of Jabez either in your worship, coo.


    Luke 11:2


    Quote:
    ESV
    And he said to them, "When you pray, say:

    Quote:
    NIV
    He said to them, "When you pray, say:

    Quote:
    NKJV
    So He said to them, “When you pray, say:

    Quote:
    KJV
    And he said unto them, When ye pray, say,

    Quote:
    1550 Stephanus New Testament
    lego: to say (Strong's # 3004)

    Quote:
    1881 Westcott-Hort
    lego
    And? Are you using this text over against the Matt. text inferring a contradiction? And do you recite the Luke version instead of the Matt. version since you are presupposing a command in Luke to "say" this version of the Lord's Prayer verbatim. Which is it?


    Again, the burden of proof is on you to show that the confession is wrong.
    The proof is in the text, both of them. I already showed that its a model for prayer, no need to recite verbatim. If churches want to recite it then by all means go ahead but don't tell me its because its a command but be honest and say its tradition, yes thats right even when the divines wrote in the confession that it may be used as a prayer it was tradition that drove them to pen that in. They were not infallible my dear brothers and sisters lets not be tempted to over exalt the confession(which ever version you prefer) above biblical exegesis.
    Richard W. Roldan "Ricky"
    Member and Teacher of Iglesia Presbiteriana Reformada Berea (PCA)
    Winter Haven, FL./ Under Care of the Southwest Presb.(PCA)

    http://urbanreformed.com

    " I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel," Paul

  34. #34
    sastark's Avatar
    sastark is offline. Puritanboard Graduate
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    3,188
    Quote Originally Posted by Roldan View Post
    If the words are sound, then it doesn't matter who originally wrote them, it matters who is praying them.

    So you wouldn't have a problem reciting the prayer of Jabez either in your worship, coo.
    Why would I have a problem reciting a section of Scripture in worship? If 1 Chronicles 4 was part of the responsive Scripture reading, would you abstain?

    Luke 11:2


    Quote:
    ESV
    And he said to them, "When you pray, say:

    Quote:
    NIV
    He said to them, "When you pray, say:

    Quote:
    NKJV
    So He said to them, “When you pray, say:

    Quote:
    KJV
    And he said unto them, When ye pray, say,

    Quote:
    1550 Stephanus New Testament
    lego: to say (Strong's # 3004)

    Quote:
    1881 Westcott-Hort
    lego
    And? Are you using this text over against the Matt. text inferring a contradiction? And do you recite the Luke version instead of the Matt. version since you are presupposing a command in Luke to "say" this version of the Lord's Prayer verbatim. Which is it?
    No. There is no contradiction. Luke establishes that it is acceptable to recite the exact words the Lord taught us. To say we can't is in contradiction to this passage.


    Again, the burden of proof is on you to show that the confession is wrong.
    The proof is in the text, both of them. I already showed that its a model for prayer, no need to recite verbatim. If churches want to recite it then by all means go ahead...
    We agree that if churches want to recite it, it is not a problem?

    ...but don't tell me its because its a command but be honest and say its tradition, yes thats right even when the divines wrote in the confession that it may be used as a prayer it was tradition that drove them to pen that in. They were not infallible my dear brothers and sisters lets not be tempted to over exalt the confession(which ever version you prefer) above biblical exegesis.
    No one says that the authors of the WCF were infallible, but it is the confession you said you hold to when you joined this board (unless, of course, you hold to the London Baptist Confession).
    Seth Stark
    Member, Grace Presbyterian Church (OPC), Springfield, IL (though I live in Decatur, IL)

    (Formerly Ruling Elder, Communion Presbyterian Church (ARP), Irvine, CA)
    M.A. Science and Religion, Biola University
    The Ruling Elder Blog
    LIKE The Ruling Elder on Facebook!

  35. #35
    Roldan's Avatar
    Roldan is offline. Puritanboard Junior
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    1,186
    Quote Originally Posted by sastark View Post
    Why would I have a problem reciting a section of Scripture in worship? If 1 Chronicles 4 was part of the responsive Scripture reading, would you abstain?
    I'm with you bro. No I wouldn't abstain. My point is that alot of what we do in our churches are traditional in nature and yes I Know not all tradition is bad and I'm not saying that it is, my original point was that there are alot of STRICT RPW'rs around here and it seems to me that it is inconsistent to hold to such a strict sense of the RPW when it comes to instruments etc... but still incorporate the Lord's Prayer into their worship when it was never a command to recite the Lord's prayer verbatim. I don't hold to such a strict view I agree with most of what Frame proposed in his book. So maybe that would clear up alittle of where I'm coming from.


    No. There is no contradiction. Luke establishes that it is acceptable to recite the exact words the Lord taught us. To say we can't is in contradiction to this passage.
    I disagree. I don't believe that the Luke text teaches that at all, and if it does then which version to we recite exactly?



    We agree that if churches want to recite it, it is not a problem?
    Correct. Do we agree that if churches do not recite it, it is not a problem either?


    No one says that the authors of the WCF were infallible, but it is the confession you said you hold to when you joined this board (unless, of course, you hold to the London Baptist Confession).
    No no no, I hold to the WCF but have my exceptions here and there and with Large and short catech. Like this issue for example lol
    Richard W. Roldan "Ricky"
    Member and Teacher of Iglesia Presbiteriana Reformada Berea (PCA)
    Winter Haven, FL./ Under Care of the Southwest Presb.(PCA)

    http://urbanreformed.com

    " I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel," Paul

  36. #36
    Zenas's Avatar
    Zenas is offline. Snow Miser
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    4,191
    We recite it every Sunday.
    The following users found this post helpful:



    Andrew
    Member, Independent Presbyterian Church (PCA)

  37. #37
    cih1355 is offline. Puritanboard Junior
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    1,220
    Quote Originally Posted by Christusregnat View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cih1355 View Post
    Is it a common practice among Reformed churches to recite the Lord's Prayer verbatim during worship services? I'm curious because I recently visited an OPC church in the San Diego area and the Lord's Prayer was recited during the worship service.
    Curt,

    Do you sing certain hymns frequently at your church? If so, is that a "vain repetition"? I think not.

    The book of Psalms is a collection of liturgical prayers, hymns, medetations, etc. In other words, God intended that such divine odes would be recited by His people throughout the ages. Also consider the fact that Christ sang a collection of these Psalms with His disciples; was this vain repetition? I think not.

    As such, praying the Lord's Prayer as a liturgical device is nothing short of biblical, and enriches the worship service.

    Anything man does can be "empty words"; whether he makes it up on the spot, or whether it's written on a piece of paper for him to read. God wrote a bunch of prayers down for us to read: the Psalms. To argue against liturgical prayers is (to me) fairly short-sighted, and will inevitably lead to hypocrisy, due to the repetition of hymns we sing, and the fact that we're not spontaneously singing them.

    Also, the recitation of the Lord's Prayer is not a Presbyterian tradition: it is a universal, long-established custom, with a strong bibilcal and theological justification. The burden of proof would rest with anyone wishing not to recite it.

    Cheers,

    Adam
    Hello Adam,

    Certain hymns are sung at my church frequently and I would not consider singing those hymns a vain repetition unless one is not even thinking about he is singing about. Praying the Lord's Prayer over and over again does not necessarily mean that one is making a vain repetition. I wasn't arguing against praying the Lord's Prayer. I was curious about the practice of Reformed churches.
    Curt

  38. #38
    Roldan's Avatar
    Roldan is offline. Puritanboard Junior
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    1,186
    Quote Originally Posted by joshua View Post
    As for the propriety of congregational reading of it in worship, I am inclined toward Andrew's post. But I must say, as to the validity (if any) of the posts below, they cannot stand. The problem, as you both point out, is not God's Word, but the hearts of men.
    Quote Originally Posted by rescuedbyLove View Post
    Anything you say without thinking, or without really meaning it from your heart, is vain. The words our Lord used were not vain when HE said them, but they can be when we say them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Roldan View Post
    Of course not, but then again they are not fallen creatures corrupted by sin and therefore are joyfully and heartfully repetitive hence meaningful.
    I think Andrew's post pretty much ends this discussion.

    And Joshua please excuse my ignorance but I'm kinda confused as to what you meant by the post you quoted. Were you saying it has no validity?
    Richard W. Roldan "Ricky"
    Member and Teacher of Iglesia Presbiteriana Reformada Berea (PCA)
    Winter Haven, FL./ Under Care of the Southwest Presb.(PCA)

    http://urbanreformed.com

    " I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel," Paul

  39. #39
    Christusregnat's Avatar
    Christusregnat is offline. Puritanboard Professor
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    5,173
    Quote Originally Posted by cih1355 View Post
    Hello Adam,

    Certain hymns are sung at my church frequently and I would not consider singing those hymns a vain repetition unless one is not even thinking about he is singing about. Praying the Lord's Prayer over and over again does not necessarily mean that one is making a vain repetition. I wasn't arguing against praying the Lord's Prayer. I was curious about the practice of Reformed churches.
    Thanks for the explanation! I would say if someone prayed it over and over as a mantra (as, for example NT Wright recommends), then I would call that babbling; the liturgical use, however, is very scriptural.

    Cheers,

    Adam
    Adam B., Old Dominion, RPCNA

    Ratio immutabilis facit praeceptum immutabile

  40. #40
    Roldan's Avatar
    Roldan is offline. Puritanboard Junior
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    1,186
    Quote Originally Posted by joshua View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Roldan View Post
    And Joshua please excuse my ignorance but I'm kinda confused as to what you meant by the post you quoted. Were you saying it has no validity?
    I'm saying that the reasoning you gave in the post cannot be a reason to say it's wrong to pray the Lord's Prayer verbatim, because any vanity due to its repetition is the fault of men's hearts, and not God's Words.
    Oh ok gotcha. I agree to an extent

    But that wasn't my main reason and I never actually said it was wrong per se.

    My main point was that the exegesis of the Matt. and Luke text teach us that Christ was teaching us a model on how to pray not on what to say verbatim. To use Andrew's post...

    That our blessed Lord: taught his disciples to pray, by giving them a general directory, is allowed; but that he ever tied them up to a form in praying cannot be proved. When he gave them a direction to pray, he said, "After this manner pray ye," etc. Matt 6:9; and again, "When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven," etc. Luke 11:2. It is probable enough our Lord gave these directions at different times, though the substance of them is the same. But the alteration of the words is enough to satisfy any unprejudiced mind, that he could not intend them to be used as a stated form. And the church of England has thought fit to differ in the words of the fifth petition from both. It is pretty clear, that the phrases when ye pray, say, Luke 11:2, and after this manner pray, ye, Matt 6:9, are precisely of the same import, and explain one another: and neither of them import, that the very words, which our Lord then expressed, were to be constantly used; but only that the scope of them should direct us in performing this duty.

    Q. What special rule of direction in prayer hath God given us? -- A. That form of prayer which Christ hath taught his disciples, which is commonly called the Lord's prayer, because the Lord Jesus prescribed it.

    Q. Did Christ prescribe it as a form, the express words of which we are bound to use? -- A. No; but as a pattern of prayer, directing us what we should pray for, and in what order we should offer our requests.

    Q. How prove you that Christ did not prescribe it as an express form of prayer? -- A. Because in Matthew, who relates this form most exactly, Christ only says, After this manner pray ye; Matthew and Luke relate it differently; and Christ, and his prophets and apostles, used different expressions in prayer, Matth. xi. and xxvi. Acts i. and v. Eph. iii. John xvii, &c.
    But I do believe that there is some validity to what you quoted of me stating.


    Q. Why may not others confine themselves to set forms of prayer? -- A. Because to do so checks the teaching of God's Spirit, inverts the order of prayer, encourageth sloth, and is most absurd and unreasonable.

    Q. How doth confining ourselves to set forms of prayer check the teaching of the Spirit? -- A. As the form teacheth us what to pray for, which is the work ascribed to the Holy Ghost, Rom. viii. 26.

    Q. How doth it invert the order of prayer? -- A. As by this means, instead of our hearts regulating our words, the words of the form must regulate our heart.
    Q. How doth it encourage sloth? -- A. As it makes us careless of self-examination, and of study of the scriptures for instruction in prayer, and stirring up of our hearts to seek after the gift or grace of prayer.

    Q. How is it most absurd and unreasonable? -- A. It is as if a hungry beggar could not ask alms, or a drowning man cry for relief, without an express form.

    Q. Is not the Lord's prayer a most excellent pattern? -- A. Yes; for it is a short, full, and orderly prayer.
    Richard W. Roldan "Ricky"
    Member and Teacher of Iglesia Presbiteriana Reformada Berea (PCA)
    Winter Haven, FL./ Under Care of the Southwest Presb.(PCA)

    http://urbanreformed.com

    " I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel," Paul

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72