I know what you mean we sung that song at the end of service Sunday. While Jesus and the Holy Spirit are knocking at your hearts door. Won't you you please let him in.

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John Komenda
Symphony Bible Church
Conservative Baptist
Buffalo, New York

Before they call I will answer; while they are yet speaking I will hear. Is.65:24 ESV

I think I got you beat, Tim. When we moved to Atlanta several years ago, we visited a PCA church in the Buckhead section of town. It was one of the Perimeter PCA satellite congregations. They actually sung, during the worship service, "Castle on a Cloud", from the pop-opera Les Miserables! I'm not joking.

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Michael Masztal
Ruling Elder, Chapel By The Sea, ARP
Melbourne Beach, FL

The popular hymn "Take my Life and let it be" has, IMO, clearly arminian theology in stanzas 5 and 6. People may disagree with that, but that is my cursory interpretation of them.

Regarding Watts, there have been threads in the past that have dealt with him. Gilbert M'Master's biography of Watts and historian J.H. Allen's work on Unitarianism in the British Empire both state that Watts died as a Unitarian, having denied the faith. Tony Cowley once told me that he had read all of M'Master's book. He said that it was indeed a damning indictment of Watts.
Needless to say, I do not sing hymns written by Watts.

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Randy Harris
Heritage PCA Church
Oklahoma City, OK

For the two previous posts:

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Tim Phillips
Pastor, Midlane Park Presbyterian Church (ARP)
Louisville, KY
Husband of Scottish Lass
My Blog: Gairney Bridge
My Facebook/My Avatar

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

"Wherever the gospel is preached, it is as if God Himself came into the midst of us." ~ John Calvin

Take my will and make it Thine,
It shall be no longer mine;
Take my heart, it is Thine own,
It shall be Thy royal throne.

Take my love, my Lord, I pour
At Thy feet its treasure store;
Take myself and I will be
Ever, only, all for Thee.

Where is the Arminian theology??

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MarieP
Reformed Baptist Church
Louisville, KY

"I am not worthy of the least of all the mercies and of all the truth which You have shown Your servant" (Gen. 32:10)

What's the issue with singing songs that pagans wrote? I don't care why someone offered meat to idols, to me it is clean. My worship is pure before the Lord, regardless of what they were thinking. I evaluate lyrics because those are my song to God. The life of whatever guy who put the lyrics together has no bearing on what I do with them.

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Andrew Thornquist My Photo Album
Calvinistic Baptist
Ukiah, California
To follow Christ was the best decision God made for me!

I agree as far as concerns binding the conscience of others, but I have to admit I am not comfortable singing words written by heretics if I can avoid it. Perhaps this is just a weak conscience issue on my part, and I know I'm not consistent with it, as I have not investigated the author of every song I love to sing in worship. But nevertheless, if I do happen to know a little too much about it, it makes me very uncomfortable singing it.

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Austin
EE student at Texas State University
Member of Church of the Cross (PCA) in San Marcos, TX
Ps. 8:3-4 "When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?"

Frederick W. Faber, who wrote Faith of our Fathers was Roman Catholic.

Robert Robinson, who wrote Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing apostatized from the faith.

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Bob, elder, RBC Louisville. 1689 LBCF

"... Of such also, or of those who make a credible profession of being such, all those particular churches consist, which constitute our Lord's visible kingdom. ... Consequently, all the subjects of His government must have spiritual dispositions, , and yield spiritual obedience- obedience proceeding from an enlightened understanding, an awakened conscience, and a renewed heart."- Abraham Booth 1788

Wish I had known that before - I would not have ordered and read his "On Improvement of the Mind". Very sad.

P.S. I have checked various sources and can see that it somewhat questionable. For example, here we read:
In The life, times, and correspondence of the Rev. Isaac Watts by by Milner, Thomas the issue is dealt with, too, and the author believes that Dr.Lardner is unable to provide sufficient evidence for his claims.

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Igor
Deacon - Novotushino Baptist Church
Moscow, Russia

He eventually returned to the faith, though.

Prone to Wander, Lord I Feel It Provocations & Pantings

A great story.

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Vaughan
BTh Student, Presbyterian Theological Centre
Student Assistant, Ashfield Presbyterian Church
Sydney, Australia
The Ransomed

Robinson's life sure does add an extra dimension to that hymn! I haven't read much about him except for the famous quote that, at the end of his life, he looked miserable and a woman asked if he was the man who wrote "Come Thou Fount." He said, with tears in his eyes, that he'd written it long ago and that he'd give anything to "feel the same" as he did when he wrote it. I would have liked to ask what exactly he meant by that. Is there further evidence that this was because of apostasy or do we have reason to think that this misery was not unlike what Samson felt at the end of his life?

Not only is it legalistic and man centred, but it is verging on being a mantra with all the repetition.

My favorite worst song would be "They Rush on the City, They Run on the Wall" which was often sung with great enthusiasm at my former church. It is taken from Joel 5 which describes God's judgment against Jerusalem by means of a hord of locusts! Some gebroni made it into a praise song - I remember standing at the back of the room once when this song was being sung and watching people clapping and waving their hands in joy, never realizing what the actual context was and that if they sang it at all it should have been sung in a minor key. Sheesh!!!

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Sue Scott
First Evangelical Presbyterian Church - PCA
East Liverpool Ohio

Some of my favorite spiritual songs are from my Roman Catholic upbringing. God has used them to comfort as well as rebuke me (as any form of memorized scripture often does). I don't care who wrote the song or what their motives were, as long as the song itself is sound. Many of the RC "Glory and Praise" songs (written in the late 60's, early 70's after Vatican II drastically changed all the music) are I think very sound biblically. I sing them often to my children and have been asked to sing a couple "crossovers" at my PCA church for special music.

Here's one taken out of Psalm 139 (a very common lullaby around here):

youtube.com/watch?v=h1AlUUvZBpA

(the video along with the song does have art work that represents Jesus, just a warning, that's why I nerfed the link)

You Are Near

1.
Yahweh, I know you are near,
standing always at my side.
You guard me from the foe,
and you lead me in ways everlasting.

Lord, you have searched my heart,
and you know when I sit and when I stand.
Your hand is upon me protecting me from death,
keeping me from harm.

2.
Where can I run from Your love?
If I climb to the heavens You are there;
If I fly to the sunrise or sail beyond the sea,
still I'd find You there.

3.
You know my heart and its ways,
you who formed me before I was born
in the secret of darkness before I saw the sun
in my mother's womb.

4.
Marvelous to me are Your works;
how profound are Your thoughts, my Lord.
Even if I could count them, they number as the stars,
You would still be there.

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Catherine
PCA
Waldorf, MD

Whoever gives thought to the word will discover good,
and blessed is he who trusts in the Lord.
Proverbs 16:20 ESV

I agree. It's easier with words than with music. With music I don't feel too happy if I know the composer was a hater of God -- it's going to be there somewhere, though music being music, I may not be able to discern it.
But with words, you read them and you can soon tell if they're good to sing or not.
This thread is a bit depressing though.
I prefer the ones that concentrate on what is pure and lovely and of good report, instead of what isn't.

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JennyG
Church of Scotland (Presbyterian)
Fife, Scotland

Hmm...I disagree. I don't have any problem with this song, except for the repetition, but that's aesthetic more than theological. We can't object to every instance of "I will" in a song just because we're Calvinists. There are plenty such instances in the Scriptures. I think what Bern said earlier is relevant here.

-----Added 10/28/2009 at 09:20:53 EST-----

Note that I was referring to that "Love the Lord your God" song, not "They Rush on the City..."

I love "It Well With My Soul," but there is one line in it that can be misleading if taken out of context:

My sin - O the bliss of this glorious thought.

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Mark Hettler
PCA
Central NJ

God answers prayers in one of two ways: "Yes," or "I have something better."

I tend to agree. I don't know that song, but when I saw it, it made me think of psalm 119, which is full of I wills... "I will praise thee...I will keep thy statutes....I will meditate in thy precepts..." but all perfectly balanced with prayers for teaching and understanding so that that may be the case.
I love that psalm. It seems to encapsulate the tension expressed in "work out your own salvation in fear and trembling,... for it is God who worketh in you..."

Actually it IS sung in a minor key, but point well taken; I remember that song from years ago and had the same issue. I actually pointed it out to the pastor and got the same response that "intellectuals" always get in churches like that.

I guess it's more along the line of who exactly they are singing to/writing about in the hymn. If the writer is Unitarian, then the Jesus of whom they write is not the Christ of Scripture.

But another dimension is this: doctrines are rarely (if ever) held in isolation. If one's view of the Trinity or Christ is deficient, this will almost certainly work its way out practically in their theology. This might transfer itself to the hymn writing (though not necessarily). For instance, consider the words of this "hymn" (which may be found in some Protestant hymnals):


This song was actually written (and sung) by the Shaker cult. The last couple of lines refer to their worship dances. I believe these were said to be caused by the Holy Spirit (or some other kind of spirits) and was in some way a means of "shaking off desires" or something like that.

BTW, the Shakers have made their mark on the world in more practical ways. The Shakers made great furniture, and they are responsible for such inventions as the circular saw and the clothespin. Nothing wrong with using those things, but of course that's a far cry from using their hymns in worship.

Is there any documentation to this? The story seems apocryphal. Every source that I have consulted says that he died as an apostate.

Other than the web link that you provided which gives the above quote is there any documented source to support it?

[/QUOTE]

We can't object to every instance of "I will" in a song just because we're Calvinists. There are plenty such instances in the Scriptures. I think what Bern said earlier is relevant here.

-----Added 10/28/2009 at 09:20:53 EST-----




I agree with you there, however, we should praise, worship, sing, serve, etc, IN RESPONSE to what God has done for us. "I wills" used outside of that context are man centred, focusing on what "I" will do. My favorite example of this is the very popular praise song that goes "I will sing unto the Lord all of my days, I will give praise to my God while I have life in me...." That song is taken from vss 33 & 34 of Psalm 104. The body of the Psalm is a praise of what God has done in the creation and keeping of this world. Vss 33 & 34 could well be linked with the word "therefore". Without its proper context the song becomes simply a statement of what "I" will do. Get my point?

About repetition being a matter of asthetics, have you ever stood in a non-denominational worship service and sung p&w songs over and over and over again? I have. I used to count repetitions....."1,2,3...7,8,9...." Believe me, this is not a matter of mere asthetics, there is no way such repetition can be called worship when the words all flow together and lose any meaning they might have originally had. I stand by my calling such ditties "mantras".

Cheers!

-----Added 10/28/2009 at 10:32:21 EST-----




Ha!! My dd brought that point up to our former pastor (now her fil) and was basically brushed off. Interesting, wouldn't you say?

Check out the comment box for some sources. What have you read regarding him? Sounds interesting...

EDIT: Sounds like we might only find out if and when we meet him

I realized after I wrote that that I wasn't very clear. I understand that our theology should lead to singing deeper songs and not repetitious songs. My point was that I don't object to the theological content of the song, although I do object to the theological implications of having poor aesthetics. That's a weird way of putting it, I know.

Now as to the "I will"s, there are plenty of times in Scripture when someone says, "I will do such-and-such for the Lord" without it saying anything about God predestining that act. I don't believe a song that says, "I will serve the Lord," for example, is theologically inaccurate for that reason alone.

Perhaps I was not clear about my objection which was about the adjective "firstborn" with the noun seraph.

a) Seraphim aren't sexually generated (they neither marry nor are given in marriage);

b) Is "firstborn" supposed to be a reference to a particular angel? If so, the most obvious candidate would be the "son of the morning," who is one of the fallen angels; and

c) Finally, "the firstborn" is a title of Jesus (Romans 8:29; Colossians 1:15 & 18; Hebrews 12:23, which should make us wary of using it as simply a title of exaltation for mere creatures.

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Mr. P. C. Flanagan, Esq.
Grace Orthodox Presbyterian
Both I and the church of Vienna, VA

Not sure if anyone listed this one. I Surrender All. Good song for revivals and altar calls.

Maybe it's just me but for years and years I have tried to surrender all to Jesus. Still trying feel more like a dog chasing it's tail. Can anyone really sing All to Jesus I surrender?


All to Jesus, I surrender;
All to Him I freely give;
I will ever love and trust Him,
In His presence daily live.

Refrain

I surrender all, I surrender all,
All to Thee, my blessèd Savior,
I surrender all.

All to Jesus I surrender;
Humbly at His feet I bow,
Worldly pleasures all forsaken;
Take me, Jesus, take me now.

Refrain

All to Jesus, I surrender;
Make me, Savior, wholly Thine;
Let me feel the Holy Spirit,
Truly know that Thou art mine.

Refrain

All to Jesus, I surrender;
Lord, I give myself to Thee;
Fill me with Thy love and power;
Let Thy blessing fall on me.

Refrain

All to Jesus I surrender;
Now I feel the sacred flame.
O the joy of full salvation!
Glory, glory, to His Name

Apart from numerous sermon illustrations found on the internet, most of which give very different versions of his alleged conversion , some of these have him riding in a buggy on the road with an old woman, others he is walking on a dirt road, others on a snowy road, either a girl or a woman brings up the song and his responses vary considerably.

I have found not a single source that provides first-hand sources of documentation.

I did come across this at the Andrew Fuller Center:

“[Robinson] hath his own opinions of the nature of God, and Christ, and man, and the decrees, and so on: but he doth not think that the opinion of Athanasius, or Arius, or Sabellius, or Socinus, or Augustine, or Pelagius, or Whitby, or Gill, on the subjects in dispute between them, ought to be considered of such importance as to divide Christians, by being made the standards to judge of the truth of any man’s Christianity"

The Andrew Fuller Center for Baptist Studies 2005 November

I saw the point very well made once (though I forget by whom) that in more modern hymn writing the trend has been to say ever more boldly, sometimes very gushingly, and always presumptuously really, "I love you Lord! I love you SO MUCH! I love you more than anything!!..."
There's no way that handing such words to a congregation to sing isn't going to be involving at least some of them, some of the time, in complete hypocrisy.
The older writers, with more realism both spiritually and psychologically, would tend rather to say "O for grace to love thee more..."

"When I Survey the Wondrous Cross" is simply example theory of the atonement... That ain't good theology!

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Jeff Burns
SBC (loosely)
Wake Forest, NC
1644 London Baptist Confession of Faith

example theory of the atonement....?
sorry, I don't think I understand

Example theory of the atonement, or moral example theory, basically says "look at what Jesus did! Wasn't it good? Shouldn't you do good things to?"

Notice the lyrics of that hymn say nothing about what Jesus actually did on the cross. It just says we ought to come and die, give Him our lives, etc.

Oh I see now. Thanks!
I've always found that hymn edifying, but then I haven't closely analysed it or anything. I need to think about it.
Ok I've thought (a bit). I can see what you mean. Still I don't think I would write the hymn off for that reason. I would rather say that it concentrates on one aspect. I mean you're right the whole story definitely isn't there, but I think that's forgiveable.
The gist seems to me to be "look what an amazing thing Jesus did. When I really contemplate it, I realize it should have much more of an impact on me than it does."
That's not a complete account of the Christian faith, but I think it's still a legitimate thing to say...don't you think?

-----Added 10/29/2009 at 09:46:09 EST-----

....and by the way (what I should have started out with) welcome, Jeff!

I agree with you about the struggle. I feel it too. But I think we can still sing this song. We sing it as an expression of our true heart, which is controlled by God's Spirit. Although the flesh often obsures our true heart, we have faith that this song expresses who we surely are in Christ and who we surely are becoming, in terms of daily obedience, by his Spirit.

Songs like "I Surrender All," "Have Thine Own Way, Lord," or "Take My Life and Let It Be" would be hypocrisy if we claimed they reflected how the past week has gone. But as songs sung with the Spirit who has given us new hearts, they reflect who we really are on a deeper level. Sing 'em out with praise to God for his incredible gift! And let their words rekindle your joy in following him.

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Jack K.
PCA, worshiping with some fine Baptists in Colorado

I strongly disagree. I doubt that the song is trying to present a complete systematic view of the atonement, rather than a single aspect of it. The example theory of the atonement is entirely Biblical (Phil 2:5-11; Heb 12:1-2), and should lie within our worship as a Biblical church.

I think it is important to remember that worship songs/hymns typically don't stand alone. Instead, it would be up to whoever is organizing the music to have a mix of songs that accurately portray the Gospel message. Yes, the song When I Survey the Wondrous Cross is not complete at itself, but other songs would also be sang to complete the picture. Likewise, a song more emphasizing law would also need a song more emphasizing grace to be sang with it.

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Jake; Hold to Original WCF, member of SBC; Greater Atlanta, Georgia Area

The cross does not give us a minor shift or two with regard to a few of our ethical and moral and religious values; the cross radically disrupts the very center and citadel of your life from self to Christ. —Albert N. Martin