An Offering of Incense?

Coram Deo · #1 (**permalink**) 11-27-2007, 01:05 PM

I have found a passage I am having trouble with. It seems to say that in the New Covenant that an offering or element of incense would be offered up by the Gentles to God in Corporate Worship. How does one reconcile this? If Incense was done a way with in the Old Covenant, What did it Typify and Shadowed?

The Passage is Malachi 1:11 which reads "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."

Historically the early church and the Reformation Church considers this a passage of the New Covenant dealing with the Eucharist or the Lord Supper which is a Pure Offering but what do we do with the incense aspect of this passage.

Were the puritans just over reacting to Rome when they took this out of worship?

What are your thoughts?

Michael

Calvibaptist · #2 (**permalink**) 11-27-2007, 01:28 PM

Mike,

I would relate this passage to the fulfillment found in the book of Revelation:

Quote:

Revelation 5:8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Revelation 8:3-4 Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel's hand.

So, the OT usage of incense typified prayer. In NC worship, we no longer have the OC incense, but still have prayer.

VirginiaHuguenot · #3 (**permalink**) 11-27-2007, 01:33 PM

As Matthew Henry notes on Mal. 1.11:

Quote:

Instead of those carnal ordinances, which they profaned, a spiritual way of worship shall be introduced and established: Incense shall be offered to God's name (which signifies prayer and praise, Ps. cxli. 2; Rev. viii. 3), instead of the blood and fat of bulls and goats.

See in particular Thomas Cobbet's Gospel Incense: A Practical Treatise on Prayer.

Contra_Mundum · #4 (**permalink**) 11-27-2007, 01:33 PM

Michael,
Where are we going to sacrifice the incense? Shall we borrow incense sticks from the Buddhists? Shall we borrow shakers from the EO? Which incense is acceptable? God gave Israel a recipe. He told them exactly what they should do, when, where, how. We have nothing like this in the NT. And what would be the purpose?

All over the OT, the prophets point to the coming era (NT, Gentile inclusion) and use the imagery and concepts of OT covenant and worship.

Example: Is. 56:7, the Lord speaking of the outcasts of Israel, who are denied access to the Temple service under the Old Covenant: "Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people." This is speaking of the New Covenant era. So, the same kind of question could be asked: Should we have a Temple? Altars?

As the fulfillment of these things are found in Christ, so too are the sacrifices of incense. For the purposes of interpretation, we should determine what incense represented in the Temple service, and see how that is fulfilled in Christ.

Amazing Grace · #5 (**permalink**) 11-27-2007, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calvibaptist

Mike,

I would relate this passage to the fulfillment found in the book of Revelation:

Quote:

Revelation 5:8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Revelation 8:3-4 Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel's hand.

So, the OT usage of incense typified prayer. In NC worship, we no longer have the OC incense, but still have prayer.

Douglas, fullfilment in what aspect? An eshcalogical future fullfilemt? This scripture has always confused me also. The gentile prophevy is fullfiled, yet in most commentaries I have read, they immediately go right to incense equalling prayers. My only issue with this thought is it makes prayer replace incense, as if no prayers were offered in the OC and only incense.

Good question Michael

Prematurely, It would have to mean much more than only prayer. Therefore being connected to the atonement offering in the Holy of Holies, Christ becomes the incense of the NC believer.

Matthias · #6 (**permalink**) 11-27-2007, 01:44 PM

Incense in the OT typified Prayer in the NT

Amazing Grace · #7 (**permalink**) 11-27-2007, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthias

Incense in the OT typified Prayer in the NT

Jeffery as I mentioned above, it is much more than only prayer. It typified the conduit to the Father. Through the blood of the atonement by the High Priest. Christ being the High Prist now does not need any type of aroma to inteercede on our behalf. It is Christ alone that is the incense that arises acceptably to heaven.

Coram Deo · #8 (**permalink**) 11-27-2007, 04:43 PM

Ok, Let me see if I get what you are saying...

Incense with the rising smoke was regarded as the symbol or vehicle of prayer to God in heaven. In the New Covenant prayer is still offered and is "as" or "like" incense set before the Lord (Psalm 141:2) through Christ our mediator who acts like a conduit or vehicle for our prayers to Father. So Christ replaces the incense with himself.

Am I reading you correctly?

What about “… another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer [it] with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, [which came] with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.” (Revelation 8:3-4)

Is there really an angel in heaven offering incense before the throne of God? Yes. There is. And that angel and his incense are more real than all earthly incense being burned.

I think I can agree with what you are saying if what I am reading you as is correct but would like some clarification with regards to Rev. 8:3-4. It just seems to me that if it was done in the Old Covenant and will be done in Heaven and is being done in Heaven and Malachi is telling us that it will be done by Gentiles in the New Covenant that the Malachi passage is not spiritualized in some way. And it seems from the records that the early church practice this.

Still scratching head...
Michael

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amazing Grace

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calvibaptist

Mike,

I would relate this passage to the fulfillment found in the book of Revelation:

Quote:

Revelation 5:8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Revelation 8:3-4 Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel's hand.

So, the OT usage of incense typified prayer. In NC worship, we no longer have the OC incense, but still have prayer.

Douglas, fullfilment in what aspect? An eshcalogical future fullfilemt? This scripture has always confused me also. The gentile prophevy is fullfiled, yet in most commentaries I have read, they immediately go right to incense equalling prayers. My only issue with this thought is it makes prayer replace incense, as if no prayers were offered in the OC and only incense.

Good question Michael

Prematurely, It would have to mean much more than only prayer. Therefore being connected to the atonement offering in the Holy of Holies, Christ becomes the incense of the NC believer.

Coram Deo · #9 (**permalink**) 11-27-2007, 07:42 PM

Any further thoughts and on my last post?

VirginiaHuguenot · #10 (**permalink**) 12-15-2007, 09:49 AM

Jeremiah Burroughs, An Exposition of the Prophecy of Hosea, p. 128 (on Hos. 2.13):

Quote:

Incense was a typical signification of prayer, in two respects. First, in the sweet savour of it. And secondly, in its ascending by fire: so all our prayers should be as incense, sweet before the Lord, and ascend up with the fervency of zeal and faith: it is proper to God alone to have such incense burnt to him: the heathens burnt incense to their idols, imitating the worship of God.

In reviewing a number of commentaries (Matthew Henry, Matthew Poole's Annotations, Dutch Annotations, English Annotations, James Durham, Francis Junius in the 1599 Geneva Bible, Arthur Dent, for example) on Rev. 8.3, it appears older divines were agreed that the Angel spoken of here is Christ who is pictured as offering the prayers of the saints to the Father in his priestly office.

Here are a few remarks on Rev. 8.3 which may be of interest:

Thomas Vincent, The Shorter Catechism Explained:

Quote:

Q. 98.9. Why must we pray unto God in the name of Christ?

A. We must pray unto God in the name of Christ, because God being so infinitely holy and jealous, so infinitely just and righteous, and we being so unholy and sinful, and our prayers at best so imperfect, and so mingled with defilement, that neither our persons would find acceptance, nor our prayers any audience with God, without the name and mediation of Christ, and the mixture of the sweet incense of his merits with our prayers, to take away the ill savour of them, and the using of his interest with the Father, upon his account alone, to give an answer unto them. "And another angel came and stood at the altar [that is, the Lord Jesus Christ, who is the Angel of the Covenant], having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God, out of the angel's hand."—Rev 8:3-4.

Fisher's Catechism:

Quote:

Q. 25.60. How are their prayers acceptable to God, when attended with so many blemishes?

A. Their prayers made in faith, though infected with the remains of corruption, yet being perfumed with the incense of his merit, are accepted in heaven, and have gracious returns made them, Rev 8:3.

Stephen Charnock, Attributes of God, Vol. 1, p. 241:

Quote:

Spiritual service is offered to God in the name of Christ. Those are only "spiritual sacrifices, that are offered up to God by Jesus Christ" (1 Pet 2:5); that are the fruits of the sanctification of the Spirit, and offered in the mediation of the Son: as the altar sanctifies the gift, so doth Christ spiritualize our services for God's acceptation; as the fire upon the altar separated the airy and finer parts of the sacrifice from the terrene and earthly; this is the golden altar upon which the prayers of the saints are offered up "before the throne" (Rev 8:3).

John Collinges in Matthew Poole's Annotations:

Quote:

Rev 8:3. And another angel came; by this angel I understand Christ, as do many very valuable authors; nor, indeed, can what is said of this angel agree to any other but him, who is called an Angel, Gen 48:16, and the Angel of the covenant, Mal 3:1. Here is a manifest allusion to the order of the Jewish worship; they had an altar of incense, Exod 30:1, upon which the high priest was to burn incense every morning and evening, Rev 8:7-8. Whilst the priest was burning incense, as appears, Luke 1:10, the people, were without, praying. Christ is here represented as having a golden censer. The high priest's censer amongst the Jews was of brass; but he was a more excellent High Priest. And there was given unto him much incense; by which is meant the infinite merit of his death, to be offered up by himself (who is the golden altar) with the prayers of all his saints. By all this Christ is represented to us, as interceding for his saints that were to live after this time, during all troubles that were immediately to begin, and to follow on, during the reign of antichrist.

Rev 8:4. This only denotes the acceptableness of Christ's intercession, and God's people's prayers, through the virtue of that intercession, unto God.

Octavius Winslow, Evening Thoughts (January 5 on Rev. 8.3-4):

Quote:

This angel is none other than the Angel of the Covenant, Jesus, our great High Priest, who stands before the golden altar in heaven, presenting the sweet incense of His divine merits and sacrificial death, the cloud of which ascends before God "with the prayers of the saints." Oh, it is the merit of our Immanuel, who "hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour" (Eph 5:2) that imparts virtue, priority, and acceptance to the incense of prayer ascending from the heart of the child of God. Each petition, each desire, each groan, each sigh, each glance, comes up before God with the "smoke of the incense" that ascends from the cross of Jesus and from the "golden altar which is before the throne." All the imperfection and impurity that mingles with our devotions is separated from each petition by the atonement of our Mediator, who presents that as sweet incense to God. See your great High Priest before the throne! See Him waving the golden censer back and forth! See how the cloud of incense rises and envelopes the throne! See how heaven is filled with its fragrance and its glory!

Believer in Jesus, upon the heart of that officiating High Priest your name is written; in the smoke of the incense which has gone up from that waving censer your prayers are presented. Jesus' blood cleanses them, Immanuel's merit perfumes them, and our glorious High Priest thus presents both our person and our sacrifice to His Father and our Father, to His God and our God. Oh wonderful encouragement to prayer! With such an assurance that his weak, broken, defiled, but sincere petitions shall find acceptance with God, who would not breathe them at the throne of grace? Go, in the name of Jesus; go, casting yourself upon the merit which fills heaven with its fragrance; go, and pour out your grief, unveil your sorrow, confess your sin, sue out your pardon, make known your wants, with your eye of faith upon the Angel who stands at the "golden altar which is before the throne." The incense that breathes from your oppressed and stricken heart will ascend up before God out of the Angel's hand as a cloud, rich, fragrant, and accepted.

Coram Deo · #11 (**permalink**) 12-15-2007, 10:17 AM

Now that was good... Wow.....

We sure have lost most of that imagery in the churches nowadays.. How much more fervent and zealous would our prayers be when we hear those words spoken or mediated on before prayer.......

Octavius Winslow really hits it good.

Thanks Andrew....

Quote:

Originally Posted by VirginiaHuguenot

Jeremiah Burroughs, An Exposition of the Prophecy of Hosea, p. 128 (on Hos. 2.13):

Quote:

Incense was a typical signification of prayer, in two respects. First, in the sweet savour of it. And secondly, in its ascending by fire: so all our prayers should be as incense, sweet before the Lord, and ascend up with the fervency of zeal and faith: it is proper to God alone to have such incense burnt to him: the heathens burnt incense to their idols, imitating the worship of God.

In reviewing a number of commentaries (Matthew Henry, Matthew Poole's Annotations, Dutch Annotations, English Annotations, James Durham, Francis Junius in the 1599 Geneva Bible, Arthur Dent, for example) on Rev. 8.3, it appears older divines were agreed that the Angel spoken of here is Christ who is pictured as offering the prayers of the saints to the Father in his priestly office.

Here are a few remarks on Rev. 8.3 which may be of interest:

Thomas Vincent, The Shorter Catechism Explained:

Quote:

Q. 98.9. Why must we pray unto God in the name of Christ?

A. We must pray unto God in the name of Christ, because God being so infinitely holy and jealous, so infinitely just and righteous, and we being so unholy and sinful, and our prayers at best so imperfect, and so mingled with defilement, that neither our persons would find acceptance, nor our prayers any audience with God, without the name and mediation of Christ, and the mixture of the sweet incense of his merits with our prayers, to take away the ill savour of them, and the using of his interest with the Father, upon his account alone, to give an answer unto them. "And another angel came and stood at the altar [that is, the Lord Jesus Christ, who is the Angel of the Covenant], having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God, out of the angel's hand."—Rev 8:3-4.

Fisher's Catechism:

Stephen Charnock, Attributes of God, Vol. 1, p. 241:

John Collinges in Matthew Poole's Annotations:

Quote:

Rev 8:3. And another angel came; by this angel I understand Christ, as do many very valuable authors; nor, indeed, can what is said of this angel agree to any other but him, who is called an Angel, Gen 48:16, and the Angel of the covenant, Mal 3:1. Here is a manifest allusion to the order of the Jewish worship; they had an altar of incense, Exod 30:1, upon which the high priest was to burn incense every morning and evening, Rev 8:7-8. Whilst the priest was burning incense, as appears, Luke 1:10, the people, were without, praying. Christ is here represented as having a golden censer. The high priest's censer amongst the Jews was of brass; but he was a more excellent High Priest. And there was given unto him much incense; by which is meant the infinite merit of his death, to be offered up by himself (who is the golden altar) with the prayers of all his saints. By all this Christ is represented to us, as interceding for his saints that were to live after this time, during all troubles that were immediately to begin, and to follow on, during the reign of antichrist.

Rev 8:4. This only denotes the acceptableness of Christ's intercession, and God's people's prayers, through the virtue of that intercession, unto God.

Octavius Winslow, Evening Thoughts (January 5 on Rev. 8.3-4):

Quote:

This angel is none other than the Angel of the Covenant, Jesus, our great High Priest, who stands before the golden altar in heaven, presenting the sweet incense of His divine merits and sacrificial death, the cloud of which ascends before God "with the prayers of the saints." Oh, it is the merit of our Immanuel, who "hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour" (Eph 5:2) that imparts virtue, priority, and acceptance to the incense of prayer ascending from the heart of the child of God. Each petition, each desire, each groan, each sigh, each glance, comes up before God with the "smoke of the incense" that ascends from the cross of Jesus and from the "golden altar which is before the throne." All the imperfection and impurity that mingles with our devotions is separated from each petition by the atonement of our Mediator, who presents that as sweet incense to God. See your great High Priest before the throne! See Him waving the golden censer back and forth! See how the cloud of incense rises and envelopes the throne! See how heaven is filled with its fragrance and its glory!

Believer in Jesus, upon the heart of that officiating High Priest your name is written; in the smoke of the incense which has gone up from that waving censer your prayers are presented. Jesus' blood cleanses them, Immanuel's merit perfumes them, and our glorious High Priest thus presents both our person and our sacrifice to His Father and our Father, to His God and our God. Oh wonderful encouragement to prayer! With such an assurance that his weak, broken, defiled, but sincere petitions shall find acceptance with God, who would not breathe them at the throne of grace? Go, in the name of Jesus; go, casting yourself upon the merit which fills heaven with its fragrance; go, and pour out your grief, unveil your sorrow, confess your sin, sue out your pardon, make known your wants, with your eye of faith upon the Angel who stands at the "golden altar which is before the throne." The incense that breathes from your oppressed and stricken heart will ascend up before God out of the Angel's hand as a cloud, rich, fragrant, and accepted.