__________________
Serving Christ in Tennessee.
Judson
Elder - Reformed Baptist
Hixson, TN

www.christschurchofchattanooga.com

We are very much in the trenches on this one, having 3 children 4 and under (and another on the way!) We have worked hard from a young age to have our children included in the service because of our conviction that scripture mentions several points where everyone (you, your wives, and you little ones) are all together hearing from the Lord.

We have visited friends' churches and have been asked to send out kids to nursery/children's church. I have gone to the ladies restroom (seriously!) to sit with my kids at one megachurch where the audio was piped in and there was a nursing chair. I'm especially not going to send my kids away with strangers when visiting a church - to me its a safety issue at the very least. Sorry if that sounds paranoid.

My church has a portable monitor (we're a put up/take down church at the moment) that they rig up every week so there's a room where the kids can be if they need to be taken out, but the moms/dad's can still hear. This is best of both worlds for me, since I can let my 15 month old toddle around while having my 2.5 year old sit on the chair (practice for sitting in the service) and correct her as needed while not missing the sermon or distracting anyone Insisting that toddlers practice sitting down nightly for family worship is very helpful for training them young, but I find that the little ones still can have a hard time with all the stimulation at the actual church service, so I've always had to train kids in the service too.

Our church also has a sort of self-regulated "families with little kids area." We all sit closest to the doors to make quick exits. That way we also don't bother the hyper-sensitive folks with our kids munching their cheerios or shifting in their seats.


I've been a Sunday school teacher before and worked with completely unchurched kids. These kids weren't getting any training at home, so a fun, at their level class was very helpful to them - it gave them a starting point and an opportunity for someone to spell things out for them that they had no previous exposure to. But my kids are getting trained at home with age appropriate methods (memorization of course, but also the fun songs, crafts, stories), so during corporate worship it seems appropriate to have them in the service when possible.

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Catherine
PCA
Waldorf, MD

Whoever gives thought to the word will discover good,
and blessed is he who trusts in the Lord.
Proverbs 16:20 ESV

I usually find this discussion frustrating.

I appreciate the reaction to total age segregation in the church but fail to see how some segregation is unbiblical, as some will claim. The passion of some Total "age integration" people clings heavily to the supposedly iron-clad biblical argument that children were always present in worship services - as if there are multiple examples of corporate worship services in Scripture which give all the details about who was present for what and if there were allowable exceptions or reasons for doing something slightly different-I mean, there weren't children at the Last Supper...- ...anyways. Further, we see the elements of worship portrayed in Scripture, but lack explicit commands about much of what/when/how various elements should be in a service, etc.

I appreciate this passion as we witness extreme age segregation in many churches today, I even share a level of the conviction and concern but do think there are multiple possible considerations and practical options that don't render a church unbiblical in it's practice because it may practice some level of mild age segregation (in worship, Sunday School, and perhaps a Christian School).

For a present example, we have had the joy and challenge of many new families from broadly evangelical backgrounds coming regularly. Most of them have never considered the notion of total age integration as described by some of the brethren here. Should we inadvertently turn them away because we have no option for their young, untrained (to sit through Sun. morning worship) children? I'm not talking about making a "seeker sensitive" worship practice decision here, I'm talking about not accidentally alienating reasonably mature families who are looking for liturgical worship and expository preaching that simply have never thought of or practiced any kind of age integration (let alone total age integration) Sunday mornings.

Frankly, it probably took most of you who espouse this view and hold this practice several years of reflection and study. It's hard to expect any different for many new families coming in to our church. Further, if your church is the U.S., most new families that come to your church will not understand the notion of total age integration. I suggest a mediating position and practice, not as a compromise, but as an option that still upholds the general thrust of Scripture in this area. I think we Reformed folk turn away more people than we recognize due to issues like this. Some will say "too bad". To those people I'm already seen as a compromiser anyways, so no sense in wasting keystrokes to convince you that some age segregation isn't unbiblical.

Along these lines and because I/we agree that total or even majority age segregation in the worship/body life of the church isn't the best way to nurture the overall spiritual development of families given to our care, we have attempted to provide a practice that nudges people toward greater consideration of family worship and practice.

We have a nursery and children's church as an option for anyone who wants to utilize. No one is made to use them, but they are options. We do have a cry room available for parents to utilize should they decide to have their infant children with them in the service. Our "children's church" is actually for children 3-5 only and entails teaching the prayers we say in the regular liturgy, some catechism training, and a short sermon with drawing type lesson that bolsters the sermon- taught by members of the covenant community (I reject the notion that having brothers and sisters in Christ assist us in discipling our children in a Sunday School or CHildren's Church or Christian School setting is some kind of abdication of the Father's role to train his children, but that's another subject). Also, they are in the worship service until the mid point, so they are present for much of the liturgy and any baptism that occurs. At age 6 (first grade), the children are encouraged to be in the whole worship service with their families.

We as elders have worked diligently to provide a practice that helps families grow in Christ. Some total age integration people still say we are compromising in some way, others appreciate that we don't have "bouncers" or otherwise make them feel bad for having their small children in the service Sun. morning. There are far more people who visit who think we should have children's church for children up through 12 years old. So pastoring a flock in this area is a real challenge for sure.

I would only say in humble conclusion that suggesting that children aren't under the word preached because they are not present for the Sunday sermon seems to imply that is all the exposure to the Word of God they receive. Children should be receiving exposure to the Word daily and multiple times on the Lord's Day, whether present for one sermon weekly or not. As the Family and the Church (and in our case, the school) work together, we will answer God's call to train our children in the Lord.

May God bless all the ministries represented by you all.

__________________
Tony Felich
Pastor, Redeemer Presbyterian Church (PCA)
Overland Park, Kansas
www.redeemer-pca.org
blog: http://reepicheep-ajf.blogspot.com

I understand. Misconceptions abound in this discussion and that frustrates me as well.

You are right, we do not have explicit details on how we are to worship which is why I am always puzzled that the "non-Total age integration" assume that the other side is so wrong. We who practice age integration see examples in scripture that do describe what worship was like and use that as an example. To be precise, there is no example of Childrens Church or Sunday School in scripture. I am NOT saying that a church that has SS is committing some sin, but where does that church get it example to do it that way?

That is a good statement, but were does that leave you? Where do you draw the line at what to provide as to not turn away "reasonably mature families"?

What better way to teach than by living the example and not, "We don't do it this way, but let me tell you about how I believe you so do it."


How did you determine this "transition age"?

This should be a given regardless of how your church service is structured.

Didn't Jesus say not to hinder the little children, to let them come?

__________________
Andrew DeShazo
Husband of Kathryn
Father of Phillip-Giles B. DeShazo
Deacon
Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church, Memphis, TN
"From out of the depth of unbroken Infinfity arose the Question, "Who am I?" And to that Question there is the answer, "I am God!" -Meher Baba, died 1969.

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Christ, died 33 AD, ressurected three days later.

My church has recently started including the children for the entire service. There is still a nursery for babies, but many families keep their babies with them anyway. What we used to do was send the children (3-6 yrs only) to a kids' class during the sermon only, but they would attend the rest of the service, just not the sermon. Now they attend the entire service and have a class afterwards, instead of during the sermon. I like this much better.

The children have never been the least bit distracting to me during the service, unless you call singing hymns loudly off-pitch (and high-pitched!) distracting. I don't - I call it cute.

__________________
Austin
EE student at Texas State University
Member of Church of the Cross (PCA) in San Marcos, TX
Ps. 8:3-4 "When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?"

We chose 6 yrs old or first grade because this is when most of our children can read. Part of the "children's church' training is to read/learn the prayers and other parts of the liturgy. We have found teaching the children to participate along in the liturgy helps them with the attention span issues, etc.

This has worked well with my three sons, the youngest is 6.

Atrocious indeed.
Hey, how in the world do I "THANK" someone on here??? Several of you have been robbed of my thanks because I've been unable to discern how it's done. Is there a button hidden somewhere??? HELLLLLLLLP!!

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DeJuan
Grace Fellowship Bible Church (Independent)
Culpeper, VA

Not to poke at every word, but....so the thinking is that you must be able to read to really "get anything" out of the service? I think this is a window into the difference in our thoughts on this.

Don't worry, you're not going crazy or blind or anything. You need at least 15 posts on here before you can thank, and then the button will appear at the bottom right with the others.

Now, once you get 15, you can come back and thank me for this. Just kidding.

-----Added 9/18/2009 at 01:38:39 EST-----

Note that the 3-6YO class was never mandatory for parents. The pastor always stressed that you may CHOOSE to send your 3-6YOs to the class during the sermon.

I can't wait to take my child to church that first Sunday and every Sunday thereafter.

No, that's not the thinking.

-----Added 9/18/2009 at 01:46:55 EST-----

No, this wouldn't be our thinking at all, but you are right, it may give a window in to a difference in our thoughts.

What a worshiper "gets out of" the service is never a question we ask. Worship is for God, not for us. He is the audience, not us. What did God get out of the service? is the real question.

To be clear, it's fine to have children in the whole service. Go for it. For us, we have chosen to use half the morning worship service to focus on training children 3-5 to read and understand how they will participate in the larger corporate service shortly. I don't see this as a one size fits all practice/approach.

No way would I ever put up with a church separating our family.

__________________
Toni Cunningham, Wife of Bill (Theognome)
Parkwoods OPC, Overland Park KS

"Vice is a monster of so frightful mien, As, to be hated, needs but to be seen; Yet seen too oft, familiar with her face, We first endure, then pity, then embrace." ~ Alexander Pope

LOL. Ummmmmm, Thanks. Manual Thanks, that is. LOL

I also have some strong opinions on this because I attend a family integrated church as well.

We don't have any Sunday School at all, for any age. We have a cry room with the audio piped in, and a nursery for children 4 and under with the audio piped in. More often than, we usually don't have children in the nursery (our church has only 300-350 attendees). We have ushers but I don't think I have once seen in my five years of attendance any of them ask a parent take care of unruly children. That sounds so absurd to me. This is worship, consisting of small children, not a music performance. Parents are smart enough to know the line between disciplining in the sanctuary and being considerate of others.

The main reason we practice family integrated worship is that we recognize the huge task that God has required of parents to preach the gospel to them daily. Given the statistics showing that almost all children of professing Christians are walking away from the faith in adulthood, it seems that Sunday School is causing parents to hand over their God given job to other people. I know it's possible to have Sunday school and be faithful in training your own children at the same time, but it most cases it looks like it reinforces parents to be lazy in this area.

__________________
Megan Meisberger
River Hills Community Church - EFCA (yes... same as charliejunfan)
Janesville, WI

Wife of matt.meisberger

<---- Naming my first son after him. My husband was saved while reading Religious Affections.

Ok. That makes more sense because I thought the issue of what the worshiper "gets" was the point you were making.


I am actually more interested in your thinking on the questions in my earlier post.

My other problem with separating children from the sermon (or the whole worship service, depending on the church) is the necessity of also removing adults from worship to supervise/teach/train the children. I've worked in a nursery where the service was piped in. I never heard any of it because I was busy changing a diaper, feeding a snack, calming a child (who missed his parents!), etc. Is it not easier for parents to show their own children how to read a hymn or liturgy than for a couple of adults to teach a dozen?

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Anna
Wife of Tim/Marrow Man
Louisville, KY
Member of Midlane Park Presbyterian (Associate Reformed Presbyterian)

As to where we get our example for Sunday School?

As you probably know, the origin of Sunday Schools dates back to the late 1700's in England for the purpose of helping those who had no religious instruction, at least that's what I've read. I'm not saying Sunday School is a biblical mandate, nor do I think you are implying that I'm saying that. For us, Sunday School is just another opportunity to teach Scripture. We adamantly encourage multiple venues for teaching Scripture at home, church, and school. We do have quite a few families who are single parent or not able to teach Scripture in the home frequently, so SS helps them also. We have families who are total integrationists and they keep their kids with them in the "adult" SS class. No big deal to us. It's up to each family to decide.

As to your other question- Where do you draw the line at what to provide as to not turn away "reasonably mature families"?

This issue of how to incorporate children in the morning worship service is the only area we have wrestled with such a question because it is immediate and necessary to address on a weekly basis, so I honestly don't know how to answer beyond what I said already.

Again, our position is still pretty extreme for most broadly evangelical folks and I am sure it still turns away people. In the end, we think it's a balanced position that honors the thrust of Scripture. There's a level at which each church must deal with it's context in determining such things. I certainly respect those who have different practices and/or disagree with what I have said here. May God grant us grace. We need it.

Yes I agree to the history. I believe that is was a well intentioned movement for the purpose you stated that in the 20th century has become a substitute for discipleship of children from Christian parents.

Correct, I do not think you are saying that.

That is not the majority feeling we FIC folks get from the other side. Mostly it is how wrong we are to do it this way.

This question was bigger than just family intergration and is standing very close to the cliff of "seeker friendly" and that would be troublesome for me.
Too off topic for this thread, so I will not sidetrack it by more questions on it.

I appreciate your comments and grace shown to the "other" side.

this is such a good point that I hav e never even considered. To my knowledge, (please correct me when I'm wrong), there is no example in scripure of a permissable situation where an adult forgets their obligation to attend corporate worship in order to do another parent's God given job. This does not seem to click with Scripture to my understanding. Yes, it is not wrong to help young ones to walk in God's ways, in fact we ought to. But in situations like this where though it is possible to shepherd your child at home AND send them to SS, the latter does not support and affirm the former, but it enables parents to be lazy.

Exactly. And if churches do minister to the adults at all, it's usually to the women with a feminine-type theology. It's no wonder so many men hate going to church.

I'm going to repeat my comment about the mother that was not in worship with her family for 8 years. Sitting in the cry room is not sitting with everyone else. Most children are not unruly after they are trained. However, a mother with children close in age may have one in training for years at a time. Again, I say they may have the illusion of worshipping together but really they are providing their own nursery service.


Parents that homeschool because they believe that is the only God approved education for their children often belong to co-ops, have music lessons, send thier minor children to community college to complete schooling. Yes they are not sending their children to public school but they are allowing people other than themselves to teach their children. I'm not saying let anyone off the street teach SS (I know that happens in some churches). However, I would like to think that it wouldn't happen in most Reformed churches.

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Evon Taylor
Community Bible Church
Swansea, Il

I would agree, but since I've never seen this, it's difficult for me to comment. The integrated churches I have the most experience with have rocking chairs as the back aisle or the back row is designated as a training for families with young children. I don't think I've ever heard a sustained cry in either setting, nor a case where a mother has needed to leave for more than a few minutes.

You're right about parents allowing others to teach their kids. Like I said, it's not that we should never teach kids that aren't our own. We should always strive to show others in the direction of knowing Jesus - children too. It's just when in churches where parents aren't doing their job of family worship, etc. that they don't take any responsibility at all, even when it's the duty God has given them, and they have their kids rely completely on the teachings of another that is problematic. Though I know it is not always the case for churches with SS.

It's also a good point that moms also miss out sometimes when the church practices family-integrated worship similar to how SS teachers miss worship.
That makes me realize that I need to remove the emphasis I put on SS/CC teachers leaving corporate worship in order to do their thing. The real issue is, I think, avoiding tacking on a parents' responsibility to the church. The trend in the churches that implement SS of recent years is that the parents relinquish 6+ times a week of family worship, teaching, etc (it was twice a day every day if you were a Puritan) so the church can teach them 1 day a week. Again, it's not that SS is all bad and it always means parents aren't doing their job, but I the fruits of it are testifying that it's not working (for the most part... the statistics are some overwhelming number, like 90% or something like that are falling away after high school), so I personally think that it needs to be avoided. Just my two cents. I will stop repeating myself. Sorry - that is my tendency, as you are all going to learn.

I should also say... I don't have any children of my own. So, ... my view has a potential to be myopic.

-----Added 9/18/2009 at 10:46:02 EST-----

I have to say that my experience is similar. But it may just appear that way to me because I am not a mom and I'm not really paying attention to that stuff.

I tend to research the churches I visit beforehand, so, as an adult, I've not stumbled into any churches that absolutely will not accept our children. There are places where we're politely reminded that there's a nursery for our 2 year old, but whether they're meant as requests vs suggestions, we generally treat them as suggestions and politely refuse.

My last church in NoCal was family integrated with no choice and we really did enjoy hearing the 'background noise'...a nice reminder that we weren't alone. One time, my young two year old (he was 1 at the time) while busy with his toy, heard that pastor say, 'dinosaurs'; a word he had just learned. He stood up in his chair and proceeded to GROWL...his word for dinosaur.

There were certainly times when a cry room would have been nice, but please don't put tons of toys in the cry room! It should be reserved for discipline and nursing mothers...what's the point in rewarding an unruly child with playtime????

You never know when your child is paying attention, or what he's gathering from the service. We still have times where we need to take our son out for a few minutes, but he's reaching the age where we will require him to pay attention more and, as a previous poster mentioned, ask him to draw pictures and explain afterward what he gathered from the sermon.

As a postscript, the story about the northern california church with a coffee shop and the crossed out baby sign is true.

__________________
Jeremy Bailey
Deacon (Currently, not serving), PCA
Grace Church of Pleasanton (Seeking in San Antonio)
San Antonio, TX

In one of my pastor's sermons he preached on why we dont have children's church. He also preached about the God ordained child discipline method of spanking. Had a wonderful quote for any of us who might have trouble controlling our children in the worship service.

He said "My office is down the hall on the left. If your child is being unruly and disobedient you have permission to take them out of this service and into my office and whoop their backside to the Glory of God." To which all the parents said a hardy "AMEN"

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Bryan Riddle
1689 London Baptist Confession
Bethel Baptist Church Owasso, Oklahoma

I used to be a member at the parent Harvest Bible Chapel (James MacDonald) in Rolling Meadows, IL. While there I was a head usher at their 9:00 Sunday service, and we were instructed to direct parents of children 5th grade and under to take their children to the children's ministry desk; for much the same reason cited in your OP (young children causing distractions by crying, etc.). There was a section of seating in the auditorium (way in the back) for families with nursing children. Again we were instructed to encourage parents with crying children to take their children out of the worship center until they quieted down.

At the time, it made sense to me, but in retrospect you're right, it is an abominable practice. One of the things that ticks me off with our current church is they have this thing called "student-led Bible study" every other week. Half way through the service high school and junior high students leave the service to go to the student-led Bible study. As you would expect, being led by students (who themselves are not 'apt to teach') the Bible study isn't very fruitful (I notice one of the elders with children in this age group doesn't let his children participate, nice leadership by example).

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Carl Gobelman
Long Grove Community Church (Evangelical)
Vernon Hills, IL
Blog: http://newcreationperson.wordpress.com

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come."

My wish would be to have some of the parents leave the worship service and leave the kids. Too many potted plants in the pews looking like death warmed over. If Christ forbade the disciples from stopping the children, who am I to do it?
I also do not believe the Spirit is impotent when kids are noisy and a tad disruptive.

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N. Robert
RCA

"Once in a while you can get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right."