I'm under the conviction that, as much as is possible and prudent, families need to be together for corporate worship. Some churches utilize "children's church" (a misnomer if there ever was one -- they are being taken out of church) but thankfully cut this off at an early age. Others encourage children to be a part of worship as early as possible.

For NewSpring Church (the one that formerly just broke my heart -- now it makes me angry) in Anderson, SC, the idea of dividing up families takes on a whole new meaning. They actually use bouncers (their word) to split up families attending worship. I'm not kidding. From their own website:

I comment more about this on my blog here.

Obviously, this is awful. But I would be interested in knowing if there are other churches (mega/giga churches) that employ similar antics.

__________________
Tim Phillips
Pastor, Midlane Park Presbyterian Church (ARP)
Louisville, KY
Husband of Scottish Lass
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"Wherever the gospel is preached, it is as if God Himself came into the midst of us." ~ John Calvin

I dont think the idea of a bouncer is a good idea but I agree that another woship service geared toward children is a good idea. Children are often not mature enough to participate in an average worship service that the adults do. By sticking them in there you often stunt their growth instead of encouraging it.

__________________
Joseph F Scibbe
Chaplain Assistant
Chapel of Wings Ft Rucker Al
Ephesians 1:4-7, 1 Thessalonians 2:8, Romans 12:1-2
Titus 2:2 - But you, teach what accords with sound doctrine.

http://twitter.com/just_joe_scibbe

What?
That is real?
What?















sorry, speechless.

-----Added 9/9/2009 at 10:50:06 EST-----

Do you have any evidence for this theory?

__________________
Shalom,
jessi
PCA
Steelers fan exiled to Virginia


“Whatever your heart clings to and confides in, that is really your God.”
Martin Luther

You stunt their growth? How can a child, being exposed to the Word of God, be stunted? Or is it that parents are much too lazy in their parenting these days to take the time to teach the Word of God at home? As a Baptist, I readily state that many young children have not yet come to faith in Christ. But how do they come to faith in Christ? Through the preaching of the gospel. The gospel does not need to be dumbed down to their level in order for them to believe.

__________________
Bill Brown
Elder
Reformed Baptist
Maryland

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Tim,

I don't know about "bouncers." That seems to be a bit extreme. Our sending church has age segregated classes, and they DO enforce it; although they do not prohibit parents from brining their children into worship. If they child becomes disruptive, an usher will ask them to take their child to the nursery or step outside of the sanctuary. We operate differently. We welcome parents to keep their children in worship.

Not only do parents have the responsibility to teach their children discipline by being calm and still through the service, but the congregation has a responsibility to not be so easily distracted. Babies cry. Kids play. These things happen. It is the height of foolishness, IMHO, to demand families be separated in worship so that folks can have "a distraction free service," or so that "the PARENT can get the most out of the service." Excuse me, is Church primarily for the purpose of what we can get out of it, or is it the command of God to corporately exalt His Name and learn of Who He is? I think it's the latter. What a shame, but what not a surprise it is.

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Josh Hicks, Chloë's Dad
Christ Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCGA
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It is God that multiplies our sorrows.... God, as a righteous Judge, does it, which ought to silence us under all our sorrows; as many as they are, we have deserved them all, and more: nay, God, as a tender Father, does it for our necessary correction, that we may be humbled for sin, and weaned from the world by all our sorrows; and the good we get by them, with the comfort we have under them, will abundantly balance our sorrows, how greatly soever they are multiplied. - Matthew Henry

Brother, the only caveat I will add to your statement is that a parent could temporarily excuse themselves if the child is not able to be brought under control. I've seen this happen, although not often. In extreme cases the parent can remove their child, deal with the issue, and then return. But I agree with your that the normal fidgeting and noises that young children make are part of what young children do. It's also the job of the parents to train these children not to act that way. In the meantime the rest of us are to set our attention on worship, not distractions.

Amen. The Scriptures show God working through covenant families. Could the Puritans see our modern practices, they would turn over in their graves. It is an act of faith on the part of parents who trust not in methods, horses, money, or anything else but the foolishness of preaching to bring their little ones to God.

__________________
David Broyles
Greenville Presbyterian Church
Free Church of Scotland (Continuing)
Upstate SC

"That man hath perfect blessedness;
Who walketh not astray
In counsel of ungodly men
Nor stands in sinners' way."
Psalm 1:1,2 - The Scottish Psalmody

Right, but that is inclusive in my "teach their children discipline portion."

Two important things churches can do to help Parents with "active" kids (like my 3-year old) under a certain age is have a "cry room" adjacent to the sanctuary with the service being "pumped in". Also it helps to have a congregation (and a Pastor) that is not so ADD that they cannot tune out a crying baby or a rowdy kid being disciplined.

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Benjamin P. Glaser, M. Div, Licentiate, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church
Member Fairmount ARP Church
Pittsburgh, PA

Deo Vindice

Precisely.

Ha! It's not just children that need training. Adults need it to.

Which was what I meant when I wrote "the congregation has a responsibility to not be so easily distracted." BTW, PM with the dates you'll be in next week. Thanks.

Our church uses a simple baby monitor to pipe the service into a cloak room with a couch, to where breastfeeding moms or parents with rowdy children can easily escape. It doesn't have to be fancy or expensive.
Our church allows parents to decide whether to bring their children or leave them in the nursery. We even have a couple families who don't allow their children to go to their own "age-appropriate" Sunday school class, so there are even children in the adult class. As far as I know, these parents have never been approached about this decision.

Also, our church does have a children's address before the sermon. We, and others, don't send our children up for it, and we've never been questioned about this, either.

I've been teaching Sunday school for the past nineteen months. It's an aged integrated class. I make a point of regularly addressing the children. It's not that I need to, but it sometimes causes their ears to perk up when they are addressed specifically.

I guess I'll be the one naysayer here... I wish that my church had had some sort of separate time for children during the service. I never understood what the pastor was talking about - and I was not a fidgity, bored, or stupid child. My parents made sure that we sat quietly and attentively (and being a compliant type, I never made trouble), but I hadn't the faintest notion as to what was going on in the sermon. If I ever have children, I will make sure that they at least go to a Sunday school class that is geared for their age. A 4 year old just isn't going to understand a sermon on substitionary atonement - I don't care how smart they are. And I want my children to understand the gospel rather than learning that church is a time when they must sit still and make a show of listening and understanding.

Please don't misunderstand - I certainly don't think that children should be banned from the service. Its a decision that should be up to the parents, of course. And I think that its best to keep the children in for the singing, prayers etc. I just would hate to make my children sit and listen to something they cannot understand if there is more age appropriate teaching available.

-----Added 9/9/2009 at 12:40:06 EST-----

I should also say that I find the idea of "bouncers" to completely inappropriate. The situation that Tim describes is extreme and...weird. I'm just saying that I think a children's church option is wise.

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Kathleen M
nondenominational
Montana

That's disgusting.

I personally loathe children's church and my child wont be going for many reasons. First, if they're going to learn to sit still, listen, and participate in worship, why do I need to wait until they're 5-6 to teach them that? Moreover, why am I going to give them 2-3 years to develop bad habits, only to have to break them once they're "big enough" to come worship with the congregation? Second, why do I want to set up a habit of them leaving me during church on Sunday, only to arbitrarily break that habit up after a few years? Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.

__________________
Andrew DeShazo
Husband of Kathryn
Father of Phillip-Giles B. DeShazo
Deacon
Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church, Memphis, TN
"From out of the depth of unbroken Infinfity arose the Question, "Who am I?" And to that Question there is the answer, "I am God!" -Meher Baba, died 1969.

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Christ, died 33 AD, ressurected three days later.

We used to have a Puritan Bouncer on the PB. We did, really. Scary looking dude. He doubles these days as a Penn State fan.

Even if you didn't understand, was it not still good that you were taught to sit quietly during that time and be attentive? I would value setting up that practice and habit so that when you can understand, you don't have other problems like being hyperactive or wanting to get up.

Also, I would suggest that your parents question you about some of the basics of the sermon afterwards. If you didn't understand, I would suggest they explain them to you. Eventually, you'd learn enough that you could understand.

While I would have to say that I am believe the children should be part of the worship service, I do understand where you are coming from. I think it was John MacArthur that I once heard say he always tries to keep his teaching/preaching at a 7th grade level. While the scriptures do deal with some complicated subjects, part of the job of a quality preacher would be to explain the scriptures on the level appropriate to the audience. Of course, we would not expect the preacher to minister on the level of a 4 yr old. MacArthur also said that he encourages these younger children to draw pictures of his sermons. He said that he has received some wonderful drawings over the years from children as young as 4 & 5 that he still has because they are a tremendous blessing to him to see what the kids have drawn. Sure they don't understand every bit of the message, but the drawings do keep them occupied and condition them to at least actively listen to the preaching of the Word.

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Andrew S.
Covenant Presbyterian Church (OPC)
Abilene,TX

And it is not only teaching them to sit still. I can teach that at home. But it is teaching them what the body of Christ looks like. My son currently wants to be a pastor (so as not to sound pious, he also wants to be a teacher like his daddy). He would not want to be a pastor if he did not know what one was. My son sings and speaks into pretend microphones (albeit weird-ish things like, "Thank you the Christ Lord for coming here..."). My in-laws took our children to evening church two days ago (we were at a wedding...another thread, maybe) and my brother-in-law (the pastor) read the entire 119th Psalm. My mother-in-law reported that our son was mesmerized and listened to almost all of it. (He's three--give him a break)
Now she also reported that he was later fanning the old ladies in front of him and was telling Grandma to shush when she told him to, so he can be a distraction.
My son is also currently obsessed with baptism. Had he been in children's church a few weeks ago during my niece's baptism, his natural curiosity would not extend to that. (He told me our baby doll needs baptized...)

I think the fact that my son a) knows what a pastor is and does b)can begin to recognize and sing hymns with us c) hears the word read and preached regularly and d) practices things like tithing and praying is well-worth the few distractions that he causes and the lack of understanding that he may receive.

I think your argument, Kathleen, is a valid one and I do think parents can do more to include children in the sermon. I admit it, I whisper to my son to pay attention when something familiar is coming his way. If the Pastor is talking about the Exodus, I will whisper, "remember Pharaoh? (whom my son is also currently obsessed with) Pastor is talking about him...."
But I think children probably get more from church than we can measure. I think that they are a part of the Covenant and should be extended the same means of grace that adults are. (If not participating in them, such as communion, then witnessing them.)
I've recently been to a church that has an entire additional concurrent service for young adults. I am sure many of them would be lost in a traditional service with "a sermon on substitionary atonement," but I don't think they should choose to separate themselves from the seeming-diversity of the flock.

The local dial-a-church with a coffee shop in the lobby (can you say "house of merchandise"?) and Obama stickers on the cars outside has a "NO CHILDREN IN SANCTUARY" sign in the foyer and a picture of a baby CROSSED OUT in the "sanctuary".

Cheers,

__________________
Adam B., Wine Country, California, PCA

"I fear not to hold with Junius, de Politia Mosis cap. 6, that he who was punishable by death under that Judicial law, is punishable by death still; and he who was not punished by death then, is not to be punished by death now."

Every child matures differently, and most children's churches set an arbitrary age as to when a child is ready for worship. I know a young man who expressed saving faith at four years old. I know others that could explain bits and pieces of the sermon at young elementary ages, primarily because they knew they would be asked about the sermon after lunch. If they are seated with the congregation, little bits will sink in, especially week after week.

This makes more sense to me than simply turning the spigot on full blast when they are six (or whatever the target age may be) and expecting them to display listening and behavioral skills that haven't been required before.

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Anna
Wife of Tim/Marrow Man
Louisville, KY
Member of Midlane Park Presbyterian (Associate Reformed Presbyterian)

Are you serious?

Well, this will probably be a (not that I haven't already done that ), but the preaching of the word in corporate worship is a means of grace (at least in Reformed understanding); the removal of children to go into another part of the church is not. One is led by a (hopefully) seminary-trained ordained man; the other most likely led by a volunteer. If your church is blessed, he/she (probably she) is knowledgeable about the Scriptures; my fear, however, is that this is the exception and not the rule, and that arts and crafts and videos are the more common diet. In a worst case scenario (I remember reading something Piper wrote once about how everything in his church is coordinated to prevent this), there may be something being taught in "children's church" that actually contradicts what is being taught from the pulpit.

I go to a medium large church with lots of kids, and those ages 4 and up stay for the first part of worship and then are dismissed, and about 25-30% of the adults go with them as teachers/volunteers. I'm not completely against children's church, but it bothers me that so many of the adults also miss out on the preaching and corporate worship.

But there's no pressure that the kids have to leave - it's up to the parents, and there is a lot of coming and going with parents and babies/younger kids, and no one minds.

Actually, the first time I visited this church a baby started crying pretty loudly towards the back during the sermon, and the pastor paused and said, "Wait, is that so-and-so? You go ahead and cry - you just stay there and cry. Folks, her daddy just left for Iraq. So you can cry all you want." And she did cry some off and on during the rest of church, but nobody cared - I had no problem attending to that sermon at all, and I knew I would probably end up staying at that church.

My last church was much less tolerant - parents weren't forced to send their kids to children church, but the ushers would descend on you pretty quickly and make you leave if a baby/child got disruptive.

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Ashley
Crossbridge Community Church
Texas
vincit qui patitur

Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! Romans 11:33 NASB

What I find funny is that the concept is completely foreign for close to 2000 years of Christian worship.

Now we can't live without a cry room or a nursery.

As one who along with my wife put the hand of the plow several years ago, we raised our sons as gentlemen and would not accept anything less. That doesn't mean they were always angels, but for the most part, they have been on line and smartly dressed. It doesn't take regeneration for this behavior, though it no doubt helps. It does take a firm but loving hand and an unwavering resolve.

Incidently, I learned this definition in 7th grade (being a bit rambunctious, I had to memorize it before I could escape school detention):

A gentleman or a lady is one who considers the rights of others before his or her own feelings, and the feelings of others before his or her own rights.

My boys grew up learning that and it has served them well.

In Christ,

KC

__________________
Heb 13:20-21

Kevin C. Easterday
Member Covenant OPC, St. Augustine, FL
Husband to Tina (August 13, 1988), Father and Teacher to Kamden (17) and Kolton (15)
Federal Theology Website
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A lot of you have brought up good points, and I do have answers for them, but I'm at work right now, so a longer post will have to wait.

I do want to say though, that I think the above situation is ideal. This way, the children are in church for the hymns, baptisms, new members acceptance etc, but they also receive teaching from which they will benefit. I would probably be uncomfortable sending my children out for the whole service - seems a bit unnecessary - but I do think having them hear teaching on their level is better than having them sit under something they don't have the mental ability to grasp.

More later...

But what about the Word not returning void? And really, whether someone is 80 or 8, unless the Spirit imparts the things of the Spirit, what does it profit?

We will never know what the Spirit will do with the means of grace. That is not our job. Our job is to avail ourselves of those means as often and as much as is possible.

In Christ,

KC

As a Mom to child on the autism spectrum, I can guarantee that any noise he makes is probably 20 times louder for me! I am so concerned about having God's worship interrupted in any way.

That said, I respectfully disagree that level of understanding should make much difference in participating in the service. It's unbelievable what sinks in. When he was 4 or 5 and the Sunday School classes were singing in the sanctuary, he pulled away from his teacher and ran up in the pulpit. What did he say? "I am the Lord Your God Who brought you out of the land of Egypt ... you shall have not other God beside me..." i.e., his concept of what comes from the pulpit is the law of God! How does he know that? From hearing it.

When I was a real little kid, my church did have its youngest members stay until right before the pastoral prayer and sermon. That makes some sense. I think we understood the transition. Also, that building had a door out from the sanctuary about half way up on the left. How I wish my current church had such an arrangement!

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JWithnell
Member Bethel OPC
Virginia
http://learningyesican.blogspot.com/

I went to a conference out here in California at a mega church. As we walked into the sanctuary with our children, as we always do, we were greeted by an usher who informed us that our children were not welcome. I asked why this was the case and was informed that it is church policy to not let children in the sanctuary. After all, you wouldn't want your child to be the cause of distracting someone who was going to believe in Jesus, would you? [please note, that was their reasoning not mine]

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Brian Eschen
Ruling Elder, PCA
Pleasanton, California

So did you walk out right then or did you even bother trying to explain some sense into this guy?

I couldn't agree more! People give more creedence to the age of a child and their level of POSSIBLE understanding rather than to the power of God's Word! God's Word DOES NOT return void, but accomplishes the very purpose for which it was sent...regardless of age or level of understanding! I fully believe that children can and do understand spiritual things by the grace of God and the work of His Spirit! I have seen 5 year olds express a love for God and for His Word and a knowledge that is simply more than what they were taught! I have friends that are believers today that would say that they came to faith by remembering and recalling the many things they learned when they were a child! I have believing friends that are severely mentally-handicapped and many people would say that they are unable to comprehend theology or doctrine or even the gospel! And, I couldn't disagree more!

If the preaching of the Word is the means of grace and the power of salvation unto men, then why would we deprive our children of this great blessing? Why would separate them from the hearing of the Word which saves men's souls because there is a possibility that they may or may not understand? Do we not believe that God is powerful enough and able to save? Do we not believe that its the Spirit that gives birth and not our intellect? Did not Christ say "let the little children come to me."?

"People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. 14When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." -Mark 10: 13-15

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Yvonne
Reformed Presbyterian
Currently seeking a Church

"A man's most glorious actions will at last be found to be but glorious sins, if he hath made himself, and not the glory of God, the end of those actions." -T. Brooks

I, too, was an expert on parenting before I had a child.

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Edward
Deacon
PCA
Texas

The missing ingredient in these decisions often is a failure to ask the question about what the Lord commands, either by precept or good example from Scripture. The simple truth is that we have no leading in Scripture whatever concerning separating out children from the worship service. The puritan/reformed principle of worship is that God regulates such from His Word.

To the contrary of much modern practice, the language of Scripture regarding who comes to worship is *inclusive* of children in the worship service, not exclusive. If we would separate our children out of the corporate worship, what Scriptural principle or text would we assert as requiring this practice? I believe that the Scriptures press us to include our children in the worship service. (Deuteronomy 29.10; Matthew 18.1-14)

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Rev. Todd Ruddell
Pastor, Christ Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church (RPCGA)
Wylie, TX
www.christcovenantreformedpc.org

Our best marks can contribute nothing to our justification, ...that is proper to faith. Faith cannot lodge in the soul alone, and without other graces; yet faith alone justifies before God.--G. Gillespie

Yes, and I think the thing to remember here is that people don't cease to be families (one form of government) when they attend corporate worship at church (another form of government). By the way that some of these churches operate, you would think that it is expected that families operate as families during the entire week, but not during Lord's Day activities because they are split up!

__________________
Tim Lindsay
member, Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church, Halifax, NS, Canada
Living in Cape Town, South Africa
"under the Southern Cross, at the foot of Table Mountain, not far from the Cape of Good Hope"

when Jesus ministered, there were children all around and He should be our "church model" also... how can it be a church "body" when you are seperating and dismissing kids?
i remember inviting a co-worker to a calvary chapel i use to attend. he brought his wife and 8 year old daughter. he was horrified as he was bombarded on at least 3 occassions
that there was a seperate place for his daughter. he never visited again
i also know of another calvary chapel where my friend brought his autistic daughter and
it was DEMANDED of him to go into a seperate room.
these things are greivous and disgusting

__________________
thomas harvey
husband & father
nashua NH
OPC

We tried explaining that our children would be able to sit just fine and then went to the "2nd Class Citizen Room" as we dubbed it. This was a room across the campus with sound piped in.

I think that parents that don't want to send their children to children's church should not be shunned or pestered to do so. However, I think that people should not assume that because children's church is available that it is a time of wild partying. I take turns assisting my husband as teachers. We have a church approved curriculum, rules, consequences, chairs, and tables. It is very orderly and the children have a lesson on their level. Different aged people learn at different levels. Any school you go to, whether home, private, or public requires different things from different aged children. They are taught in different ways.

Also, I think that some (I said some, not all) people have the illlusion of worshipping as a family. What really happens in some cases is that the dad sits with serveral children while the mom goes in and out with one or more crying or loud children. I know one mother that always gets the sermons on tape so she can listen to them after the service. She has five children under 8. She says it has been that long since she sat through a whole service. Is this family really worshipping together if the mother and some child have been away for 8 years? I'm sure she is not an extreme case because I see it happening at the church I go to now.

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Evon Taylor
Community Bible Church
Swansea, Il

Obviously as a pastor of a family integrated church I have some pretty strong convictions about this.

Yes, I've been 'bounced' with my family at some churches when we have been visiting. I never lost my cool, but when I expressed the desire for my daughter to sit with us (this time she was 11) during worship the 'usher' called on his radio for reinforcements and I was told in no uncertain terms that during the worship hour none under the age of 16 were allowed in the service. They had 'age appropriate' services for them So, we went down the street to another church. I've experienced similar things at other churches as well.

One reason that there is so much strife concerning worship 'style', music, and cultures is that for at least one generation and a half children have not been involved in the worship service of the adults. They are carted off to something that is centered around them and their desires with a bit of Scripture sprinkled on it until they reach what should be young adulthood. When they rejoin the adults they are disinterested, not engaging and demanding something that they can understand. Can you blame them? They have been trained to think and act like that.

That alone would be enough for me, but then there are the arguments and examples from Scripture that never show children being excluded from corporate worship. Rather, the times they are mentioned they are included. And, whose responsibility ultimately is it for the spiritual training of the child? The father.

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We shall not adjust our Bible to the age; but before we have done with it, by God's grace, we shall adjust the age to the Bible. - Charles Haddon Spurgeon

Lawrence Underwood, Jr.
Pastor - Providence Family Fellowship / Mobile, Alabama
1644/46 LBC
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