EP clarification

Leslie · #1 (**permalink**) 05-19-2008, 11:54 AM

What is meant by exclusive psalmody? Only the book of psalms? Other psalms and inspired songs from the Bible also (Revelation 5 and 15, Miriam at the Red Sea, Zacharias, Mary, and the like)? How about scripture set to music that was not originally written to be sung--such as the Lord's Prayer and Handel's Messiah? Also, does EP only apply to Lord's Day morning worship or to all worship, private as well as church body?

Joshua · #2 (**permalink**) 05-19-2008, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leslie

What is meant by exclusive psalmody? Only the book of psalms? Other psalms and inspired songs from the Bible also (Revelation 5 and 15, Miriam at the Red Sea, Zacharias, Mary, and the like)? How about scripture set to music that was not originally written to be sung--such as the Lord's Prayer and Handel's Messiah? Also, does EP only apply to Lord's Day morning worship or to all worship, private as well as church body?

EP does hold that only the 150 Psalms are to be sung in stated worship: corporate, private, or otherwise.

Leslie · #3 (**permalink**) 05-19-2008, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joshua

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leslie

What is meant by exclusive psalmody? Only the book of psalms? Other psalms and inspired songs from the Bible also (Revelation 5 and 15, Miriam at the Red Sea, Zacharias, Mary, and the like)? How about scripture set to music that was not originally written to be sung--such as the Lord's Prayer and Handel's Messiah? Also, does EP only apply to Lord's Day morning worship or to all worship, private as well as church body?

EP does hold that only the 150 Psalms are to be sung in stated worship: corporate, private, or otherwise.

What do you mean by stated worship? Is it forbidden for a believer to worship God with a spontaneous song (not one of the 150) in response to a remarkable providence or deliverance? How do you account for the songs recorded in Revelation 5 and 15--or is there no "stated worship" on the other side?

Cotton Mather · #4 (**permalink**) 05-19-2008, 12:37 PM

Josh,
While some would apply exclusive Psalmody to a private worship setting, others would restrict it only to the corporate gathering of the church. The opinion on this one is far from monolithic. Historically, the regulative principle is primarily concerned with the formal gathering of the church to worship. While the singing of hymns privately might be argued against by some, I don't see the legitimacy of arguing against it on confessional grounds. Can you provide some kind of historical/confessional basis for restricting EP to both corporate and private worship settings?

Daniel Ritchie · #5 (**permalink**) 05-19-2008, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cotton Mather

Josh,
While some would apply exclusive Psalmody to a private worship setting, others would restrict it only to the corporate gathering of the church. The opinion on this one is far from monolithic. Historically, the regulative principle is primarily concerned with the formal gathering of the church to worship. While the singing of hymns privately might be argued against by some, I don't see the legitimacy of arguing against it on confessional grounds. Can you provide some kind of historical/confessional basis for restricting EP to both corporate and private worship settings?

There is no Biblical warrant for uninspired hymns in private worship. In fact most commands to sing inspired praise refer to private worship. For more on this, see the relevant chapter in my book The Regulative Principle of Worship: Explained and Applied.

Joshua · #6 (**permalink**) 05-19-2008, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leslie

What do you mean by stated worship? Is it forbidden for a believer to worship God with a spontaneous song (not one of the 150) in response to a remarkable providence or deliverance? How do you account for the songs recorded in Revelation 5 and 15--or is there no "stated worship" on the other side?

By stated worship, I mean any worship (for example, corporate worship or family worship) that is formal, insofar as it is planned and stated. For what it's worth, I'm not here to debate the validity or invalidity of the EP position, I was just giving an answer to your question. This (EP) is something I am unable to apply practically in my life in corporate worship anyway. When my daughter and I have family worship, we sing only the Psalms. As for answering your contentions, I will leave that to the other men here on the board who are much more able than I to discuss these things with you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cotton Mather

Josh,
While some would apply exclusive Psalmody to a private worship setting, others would restrict it only to the corporate gathering of the church. The opinion on this one is far from monolithic. Historically, the regulative principle is primarily concerned with the formal gathering of the church to worship. While the singing of hymns privately might be argued against by some, I don't see the legitimacy of arguing against it on confessional grounds. Can you provide some kind of historical/confessional basis for restricting EP to both corporate and private worship settings?

Hi, Mr. Harris, as noted above I was only intending to answer Mary's question concerning what EP meant, and did not mean to purport my own acceptance or rejection of said principle.

Cotton Mather · #7 (**permalink**) 05-19-2008, 12:47 PM

Daniel,
Granted. Nevertheless, WCF 21 seems to be concerned with regulating the elements of corporate worship. While your conscience might prohibit you from singing un-inspired hymns in a private worship setting, can you really defend this position on historical or confessional grounds? Again, was not the regulative principle designed for the religious worship of the gathered church?

Josh,
Thanks. I wasn't at all calling into question the accuracy of your claims or any such thing. I'm genuintely curious as to whether the restriction of EP to private worship can be defended on historical and confessional grounds. Thanks!

Joshua · #8 (**permalink**) 05-19-2008, 12:52 PM

The Directory for the Publick Worship of God (1645) has this to say concerning the singing of Psalms:

Quote:

Of Singing of Psalms.

IT is the duty of Christians to praise God publickly, by singing of psalms together in the congregation, and also privately in the family.

I would also assume this would be in line with the intentions of the Framers of the WCF, when they discuss the singing of Psalms in worship, they meant only the Psalms. So I assumed it would follow that this is also intended in the aforequoted section of the DPW. But I'm not dogmatizing that or anything.

Cotton Mather · #9 (**permalink**) 05-19-2008, 01:04 PM

I must have overlooked that part of the directory. Thanks!

VirginiaHuguenot · #10 (**permalink**) 05-19-2008, 01:10 PM

William Young, “The Second Commandment,” in Frank J. Smith and David C. Lachman, eds., Worship in the Presence of God, p. 75:

Quote:

The Holy Scripture prescribes the whole content of worship. By this is meant that all elements or parts of worship are prescribed by God Himself in His Word. This principle has universal reference to worship performed by men since the fall. In other words, it has equal application to the Old and the New Testaments. It is also universal in that it is regulative of all types of worship, whether public, family, or private.

ADKing · #11 (**permalink**) 05-19-2008, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cotton Mather

Daniel,
Granted. Nevertheless, WCF 21 seems to be concerned with regulating the elements of corporate worship. While your conscience might prohibit you from singing un-inspired hymns in a private worship setting, can you really defend this position on historical or confessional grounds? Again, was not the regulative principle designed for the religious worship of the gathered church?

The regulative principle was not understood by the Puritans to be something "designed" for corporate worship. It is understood to be a comprehensive princple derived from the Scripture that is applied to all worship: public, family and private.

Question 108: What are the duties required in the second commandment?

Answer: The duties required in the second commandment are, the receiving, observing, and keeping pure and entire, all such religious worship and ordinances as God has instituted in his Word...

Question 109: What are the sins forbidden in the second commandment?

Answer: The sins forbidden in the second commandment are, all devising, counseling, commanding, using, and anywise approving, any religious worship not instituted by God himself... (WLC 108-109 abridged

)

VirginiaHuguenot · #12 (**permalink**) 05-19-2008, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADKing

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cotton Mather

Daniel,
Granted. Nevertheless, WCF 21 seems to be concerned with regulating the elements of corporate worship. While your conscience might prohibit you from singing un-inspired hymns in a private worship setting, can you really defend this position on historical or confessional grounds? Again, was not the regulative principle designed for the religious worship of the gathered church?

The regulative principle was not understood by the Puritans to be something "designed" for corporate worship. It is understood to be a comprehensive princple derived from the Scripture that is applied to all worship: public, family and private.

Question 108: What are the duties required in the second commandment?

Answer: The duties required in the second commandment are, the receiving, observing, and keeping pure and entire, all such religious worship and ordinances as God has instituted in his Word...

Question 109: What are the sins forbidden in the second commandment?

Answer: The sins forbidden in the second commandment are, all devising, counseling, commanding, using, and anywise approving, any religious worship not instituted by God himself... (WLC 108-109 abridged

)

There is no RPW for corporate worship and NPW for other spheres; there is only the RPW.

Cotton Mather · #13 (**permalink**) 05-19-2008, 01:23 PM

I entirely agree with all of you guys. I was merely trying to make the point that corporate and private worship are different settings. What may be said of one, can't necessarily be said of the other. Obviously, the preaching of the Word or the administration of the sacraments don't apply to either family or private worship. While the regulative principle comprehensively applies to all of our worship, it can't apply in exactly the same ways. I personally don't feel as though the RPW demands that I apply EP to my private worship. Thanks for all your help!

Daniel Ritchie · #14 (**permalink**) 05-19-2008, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VirginiaHuguenot

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADKing

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cotton Mather

Daniel,
Granted. Nevertheless, WCF 21 seems to be concerned with regulating the elements of corporate worship. While your conscience might prohibit you from singing un-inspired hymns in a private worship setting, can you really defend this position on historical or confessional grounds? Again, was not the regulative principle designed for the religious worship of the gathered church?

The regulative principle was not understood by the Puritans to be something "designed" for corporate worship. It is understood to be a comprehensive princple derived from the Scripture that is applied to all worship: public, family and private.

Question 108: What are the duties required in the second commandment?

Answer: The duties required in the second commandment are, the receiving, observing, and keeping pure and entire, all such religious worship and ordinances as God has instituted in his Word...

Question 109: What are the sins forbidden in the second commandment?

Answer: The sins forbidden in the second commandment are, all devising, counseling, commanding, using, and anywise approving, any religious worship not instituted by God himself... (WLC 108-109 abridged

)

There is no RPW for corporate worship and NPW for other spheres; there is only the RPW.

Precisely. If the RPW (i.e. the Second Commandment) does not apply to all worship, then there is nothing to prohibit us from burning incense in family worship.

Daniel Ritchie · #15 (**permalink**) 05-19-2008, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cotton Mather

I entirely agree with all of you guys. I was merely trying to make the point that corporate and private worship are different settings. What may be said of one, can't necessarily be said of the other. Obviously, the preaching of the Word or the administration of the sacraments don't apply to either family or private worship. While the regulative principle comprehensively applies to all of our worship, it can't apply in exactly the same ways. I personally don't feel as though the RPW demands that I apply EP to my private worship. Thanks for all your help!

To make such a distinction there needs to be Biblical warrant for it. From my studies of singing in private worship throughout the Bible, there seems to be no reason to presume that uninspired hymns are authorized. For instance, what did Paul and Silas sing when in prison?

ADKing · #16 (**permalink**) 05-19-2008, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cotton Mather

I entirely agree with all of you guys. I was merely trying to make the point that corporate and private worship are different settings. What may be said of one, can't necessarily be said of the other. Obviously, the preaching of the Word or the administration of the sacraments don't apply to either family or private worship. While the regulative principle comprehensively applies to all of our worship, it can't apply in exactly the same ways. I personally don't feel as though the RPW demands that I apply EP to my private worship. Thanks for all your help!

But the RPW does demand positive warrant (either express command, something deduced by good and necessary consequence or approved example) for every element employed in any setting of worship. What positive warrant do you find in the Bible for singing hymns in private worship? It isn't sufficient to argue that hymn singing is not forbidden in private worship or that there is no command restricting you to psalms in private worship because this is not the RPW.

Leslie · #17 (**permalink**) 05-19-2008, 01:35 PM

Aren't there three categories of songs: the 150 psalms, other inspired passages set to music, and then uninspired hymns. Do strict EPers refuse to attend Handel's Messiah? The way people are writing they seem to equate hymns with uninspired but this is not necessarily so. Many hymns (as well as some modern praise music [HORRORS]) are word-for-word scripture passages set to music. Is this forbidden? It's not psalms but it also is not uninspired.

Joshua · #18 (**permalink**) 05-19-2008, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leslie

Aren't there three categories of songs: the 150 psalms, other inspired passages set to music, and then uninspired hymns.

Do you mean categories from Scripture?

Quote:

Do strict EPers refuse to attend Handel's Messiah?

If it were in a stated worship service, yes. If it were just to enjoy music, no.

Quote:

The way people are writing they seem to equate hymns with uninspired but this is not necessarily so. Many hymns (as well as some modern praise music [HORRORS]) are word-for-word scripture passages set to music. Is this forbidden? It's not psalms but it also is not uninspired.

Ultimately, the EP position is that the 150 Psalms are the only songs authorized for stated worship.

Cotton Mather · #19 (**permalink**) 05-19-2008, 01:47 PM

It's not my purpose to enter into some kind of full-blown debate over the validity of exclusive Psalmody in private worship. Suffice it to say that there is ample evidence of songs besides the Psalms being sung outside of the formal worship setting. I think of Miriam, Moses, Mary, and others. They responded to God's special providence by singing songs other than the Psalms. There's the first part of my reason. We have ample evidence that songs other than the Psalms were utilized as a response to the providence of God. Now the question must be asked: were these songs inspired? Were they inspired when they were sung, or were they inspired when the content was recorded? It seems to me like 2 Tim. 3:16 and 2 Pet. 1:21 deal exclusively with both the authors of Scripture, along with the inspired autographs, as the instruments and products of divine inspiration. Therefore, I conclude that inspiration took place when Moses or Matthew or Luke penned the words of Scripture, not when the songs were actually sung. Consequently, I don't see any reason for concluding that these people were inspired when they sang their respective songs. Nor do I see them relying on any kind of canonical revelation for the substance of their songs, let alone the Psalter. I therefore conclude that un-inspired or non-canonical hymnody can be utilized in a private setting as a response to the providence of God. I know this comment will probably generate countless responses to the contrary. I'm only explaining why I feel as though hymnody can be utilized privately, and do not wish to enter into a debate. Thanks again for all your help. You guys are much smarter than I, and I've already really enjoyed some of the feedback I've received being on the PB for only a few days. God bless!

Joshua · #20 (**permalink**) 05-19-2008, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cotton Mather

I think of Miriam, Moses, Mary, and others.

Where is the song from Mary I keep reading about? and Zacharias?