What is the idea behind Cov. Renewal Services?

Is this getting too much like FV or is this Biblical to place more emphasis on Lord's Supper than on Preaching/Reading of Word?

What are we to think of this?

__________________
Andrew
Husband to Dena
Candidate of the MVP in the PCA
MDiv graduate from Reformed Theological Seminary, Jackson, MS
Pastor (elect) of Tchula Presbyterian Church, Tchula, MS

"What do you think about when you are not thinking about anything else? This is what you worship!"

Assuming that covenant renewal worship does put more emphasis on the Lords Supper than the preaching of the Word. But I expect some will disagree with that position. The Lords Supper is meaningless with the Word, and neglect of the Word is a sin.

__________________
R. Anthony Coletti
Midway Presbyterian Church (PCA)
Jonesborough, TN
[i]et venite et arguite me dicit Dominus[/i]

The covenant renewal services I have been in have sermons that easily reach 45 minutes, and even then the pastor really wants to go longer. That could be neglecting the word, but I know a few "established" conservative presbyterian churches that dare not exceed 30 minute sermons.

__________________
J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

ok, I told everyone that I would be lurking around and here is one of my lurking post... I just could not resist a reply..

I see nothing wrong with covenant renewal worship. It does not deny the regulative principle, but in fact strengths the regulative worship. Who ever said that it comes close to federal vision is wrong.

First off.. In covenant renewal worship, the word is not neglected or belittled, but the Lord's Supper is elevated since it does spiritually fed us and is a visual view of the gospel. After all It is the Word AND Sacrament. Sermons tend to be anywhere from 45 mins to over an hour in covenant renewal worship...

Secondly, covenant renewal worship is the biblically defined set liturgy of worship in the covenant of grace, as defined by scripture. It tells us that not only are the elements of worship important but also the order of worship is important. And that the New Covenant Worship is continued from the Old Covenant in many ways. Jesus' death abolished all animal sacrifice (Hebrews 10:4) but it did not abolish all sacrifice. We are to offer ourselves as "Living Sacrifices" to God (Romans 12:1). The sacrifices of the Old Testament not only point forward to the atoning work of Christ on the cross, they also point forward to our worship as living sacrifices.

Leviticus chapter 9 gives us details of the order of sacrifice in worship services. They consist of the following...

Call to Worship -

This expresses the truth that none of us can approach God unless he initiates the covenant with us.

Sin Offering -

This is where we hear the laws of God and lament our sins and confess our sins corporately, and of our need for forgiveness.

Burnt Offering -

Or the Consecration, ascension offering. This represents the ascension of believers into the presence of God. In this way we show we belong wholly to the Lord. We will hear the Word of God read, we offer ourselves in prayer and praise to God, and we hear the sermon as the Lord speaks through the Pastor.

Peace Offering -

Communion. Part of the animal was burned, part of it was waved before the Lord and then given to the worshipper to eat. The portion that was burned was called the Lord's good. This offering was unique in that it was the only one of the offerings in which the worshipper was permitted to eat a portion of it. In the peace offering the worshipper ate with God as an expression of deep love, trust and fellowship. Around the table of the Lord there is peace and assurance of his love for us. So it is that the covenant memorial of the Lord's Supper is offered to us by Christ, our peace offering, and he communes with us through it. As part of the regular Lord's Day worship, God gives us the privilege of sharing a covenant meal with him.

Commission -

Aaron and Moses concluded the service by blessing the people with God's benediction. As we leave the assembly of the saints, we need to know that we are not leaving God behind.


This is the liturgy the bible gives us to worship God and the order that it should follow. It will only consist of the elements of worship that God has prescribed along with a covenantal dialogue between God and Man within the worship service.

This is covenant renewal worship in a nutshell. Let us not undermind the WORD and SACRAMENT of worship and let us bring the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper back to its rightful place along side the Word in worship.

Michael

__________________
Michael Daniels
Reformed, RPCNA
Denton, Maryland

[i][b]As For Me And My House, We Will Serve The Lord[/i][/b]

[SIZE="1"][I][FONT="Century Gothic"]Unum Deum in Trinitate: Pater, Filius, et Spiritus Sanctus [RIGHT]Sola scriptura - Sola gratia - Sola fide - Solus Christus - Soli Deo gloria - Solum psalterium - Lex talionis[/RIGHT][/FONT][/I][/SIZE]

Yes, definition, please! What is "covenant renewal worship"? Can't intelligently vote in a poll about a subject I know nothing about.

__________________
Richard T. Zuelch, M.Div
Ruling Elder, OPC (not currently serving)
Westminster Presbyterian Church, CA (OPC)
www.reiterations.wordpress.com
www.foft.wordpress.com

Talking to oneself is, I believe, considered a sign of lunacy. Thinking to oneself is most certainly a sign of it. - G. K. Chesterton (1874-1936), in January, 1906

__________________
Scott
Dallas, Texas
PCA

"I believe that pluralistic secularism, in the long run, is a more deadly poison than straightforward persecution." - Francis Schaeffer

There is an "I don't know" option. That's the one I chose.

__________________
Davidius
Husband of Emilia
Member: First Reformed Presbyterian Church of Durham (RPCNA) - Durham, NC
Student: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, German Literature and Classics

This may explain the old adage about Baptists being Methodists with shoes, and Presbyterians being Baptists who can read. To round out the adage, Lutherans might qualify as Presbyterians who drink to excess, and Episcopalians as Lutherans who know when to say when. - D.G. Hart

I don't have any problem with weekly communion, but I'm getting the idea there's more to it than that from your post.

__________________
Brad
Member of Redeemer Church

I voted no. Not just because of the RPW but because God himself has covenanted with me not the other way around. He has saved me with his own right arm and is able to keep me and will not let go. Praise God!!

__________________
Traci
Lynnwood OPC
Psalm 52:8-9
8 But I am like a green olive tree in the house of God: I trust in the mercy of God for ever and ever.
9 I will praise thee for ever, because thou hast done it: and I will wait on thy name; for it is good before thy saints.

Hasn't anyone read the definition I gave above...

I did give a great explaination of it and defined it yet people are still asking what it is!



Michael

Michael,
You haven't really proved your definition. You can't really just flat out say, "Covenant renewal worship is biblical worship". You especially can't say this when you know many people disagree (especially on the Puritanboard). So why is this the biblical form of worship?

And one thing to remember is: we don't have sin, burnt, or peace offerings anymore. At least I don't think we do.

Would you say that in all the instance of Covenant renewing in the Bible that God renewed the Covenant or His people renewed it?

And did (whoever renewed) do it weekly or every Sabbath/Lord's Day or whenever there was unfaithfulness to the Covenant?

In our case, can there be unfaithfulness to the Covenant of Grace when satisfies said covenant in Christ?

I thought I did...

Here is a quote from my Post:

Quote
Covenant renewal worship is the biblically defined set liturgy of worship in the covenant of grace, as defined by scripture. It tells us that not only are the elements of worship important but also the order of worship is important. And that the New Covenant Worship is continued from the Old Covenant in many ways. Jesus' death abolished all animal sacrifice (Hebrews 10:4) but it did not abolish all sacrifice. We are to offer ourselves as "Living Sacrifices" to God (Romans 12:1). The sacrifices of the Old Testament not only point forward to the atoning work of Christ on the cross, they also point forward to our worship as living sacrifices.
End Quote

1) Jesus' death in Hebrews is saying that Christ's death we better than animal sacrficies (and abolishes the cermonial law). This kind of sacrifice is definitely not the same as Romans 12:1. Nor is Romans 12:1 referring to public worship where we are to sacrifice, but in all of life be holy and pleasing to God (this is only possible through Christ --> see Romans 1-11.

2) This doesn't prove Covenant Renewal Worship to be true and right and biblical.

Hey thunaer, is what you're describing as "covenant renewal worship" any different than the traditional reformed order of worship? Every OPC and PCA service I have been in has the same elements, except for weekly communion (which, I'm sure some churches in both denoms practice). I've never heard it referred to as covenant renewal though.

Andrew, you asked about it, is there a distinctly different service labeled "covenant renewal" that you are thinking of, or is that just a catch phrase used to describe the traditional reformed order of worship? I'm not sure I've heard the phrase before.

Every writing I have on covenant renewal describes what I mentioned... I am unsure if there is another type of covenant renewal other then I described.. And yes it is the traditional reformed order of worship taken from the sacrificial system of order of lev. 9 including the weekly communion that Calvin sought after.

Michael

Michael seems to follow Covenant Renewal services, he could probably explain better without me having a bias against it.

We do not do it at Redeemer.

Our service is geared around God and grace and gratefulness. God does something (grace), we respond in gratefulness and thanksgiving.

Michael, I think you have attempted to show why you do it, but what does it mean (i think is what Brad is asking). And why is it different than what I just described, how most reformed churches organize their worship.

Michael -

The phrase "Covenant Renewal Worship", I think, is generally associated with Jeffrey Meyers's book "The Lord's Service". When you say "covenant renewal worship services" are thus-and-so long, are we safe to assume that you are speaking of Meyers-inflected worship? Can you be more plain about your sources for "covenant renewal" as a definition?

Thanks,

Todd

__________________
Todd K. Pedlar
member, First Congregational Church, (CCCC) Cresco, IA
http://semperubi.rtrc.net

"Many men, after a long conversion, see more of the workings of sin in their hearts than ever they did before or at their first conversion. Now, such men have not an increase of sin, but an increase of illumination and light" (Christopher Love)


Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

I should also note...

That with Covenant renewal worship, it is offering up our sacrifices to God. Our Sacrifices to God our are elements of worship and so every Sabbath our worship renews our covenant keeping with God. We offer up ourselves as living sacrifices through the elements of worship.

Our Sin Offering is our Confession of Sin we offer to God in Worship, and our laments.

Our Burnt Offering is our Sermon and the Word of God...

Our Peace Offering is the Lord's Supper

Since God calls us to worship, he initiates the worship by Calling us to Worship and we close with a benediction following Aaron and Moses example.

Michael

I have never heard of Meyer's or his book....

I have a quite lengthy work by Eric Sanders titled "On Worship: Strength and Beauty in His Sanctuary"

He describes worship as Covenant Renewal Worship with a set liturgy from Lev. 9. He also explains why and how we worship. He also describes in the work everything I have already said....

Michael

With Christ as our perfect Mediator there is no further need for "covenant renewal."

__________________
Patrick
OPC
MDiv, RTS Jackson.

"He does well, that discourses of Christ; but he does infinitely better, that by experimental knowledge, feeds and lives on Christ." Thomas Brooks.

I responded to, or headed off the charge, that weekly communion de-emphasies the word. All the covenant renewal services I have been to have 45 minute plus sermons.

Also, I agree with Michael Horton that we should have weekly communion.

This being said, then I think you and Andrew were talking past each other. What he probably has in mind with the question in the OP is Covenant Renewal Worship as advocated by Jeff Meyers and others.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, Meyers views were influenced to a considerable extent by James B. Jordan.

__________________
Chris Poe--Attending Grace Community Baptist Church, Mandeville, LA

"There never was a man in the world without a creed. What is a creed? A creed is what you believe. What is a confession? It is a declaration of what you believe. That declaration may be oral or it may be committed to writing, but the creed is