Continental Reformed and Festivals - Page 2

Daniel Ritchie · #41 (**permalink**) 06-17-2008, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BertMulder

OK, fellows...

HOLD IT!

The Dutch did not set aside HOLYdays for the days of Boxing day, Easter monday, etc, etc.

The Dutch decided it was a good idea to have worship services on those days. Those days, however, never did have, and where never meant to have the status of a 'sabbath'. Not much different than the practice in Geneva, where they had worship services pretty much every day of the week....

But they set aside sacred seasons to celebrate events in Christ's life; whether or not you call these holy days is not relevant, because that is what they are (even if done under another name).

AV1611 · #42 (**permalink**) 06-18-2008, 03:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Ritchie

Since it was on a new date it was a new day, since days fall on dates.

Did Jeroboam, in moving the Feast of Tabernacles from the seventh month to the eighth month, violate an explicit command from God?

Lev 23:34-43 "Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the feast of tabernacles for seven days unto the LORD. On the first day shall be an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. Seven days ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: on the eighth day shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: it is a solemn assembly; and ye shall do no servile work therein. These are the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day: Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD. Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath. And ye shall take you on the first day the boughs of goodly trees, branches of palm trees, and the boughs of thick trees, and willows of the brook; and ye shall rejoice before the LORD your God seven days. And ye shall keep it a feast unto the LORD seven days in the year. It shall be a statute for ever in your generations: ye shall celebrate it in the seventh month. Ye shall dwell in booths seven days; all that are Israelites born shall dwell in booths: That your generations may know that I made the children of Israel to dwell in booths, when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God."

Did Jeroboam, in moving the location of the Feast of Tabernacles from Jerusalem to Bethel and Dan, violate an explicit command from God?

Deut 16:16 "Three times in a year shall all thy males appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose; in the feast of unleavened bread, and in the feast of weeks, and in the feast of tabernacles: and they shall not appear before the LORD empty: Every man shall give as he is able, according to the blessing of the LORD thy God which he hath given thee."

Jeroboam knew what YHWH had commanded and did his own thing, "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4).

AV1611 · #43 (**permalink**) 06-18-2008, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Ritchie

Quote:

Originally Posted by AV1611

If it was not wrong for Israel to set aside a time of thanksgiving for God's providential goodness at harvest then how can it be wrong for the church to set aside a time of thanksgiving for God's providential goodness at harvest?

Maybe it's not.

If it is not wrong for the church to set aside a time of thanksgiving for God's providential goodness at harvest then how can it be wrong for the church to set aside a time of thanksgiving for God's love demonstrated through the birth of Christ?

"And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men." (Luke 2:10, 14)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Ritchie

The RPW does not only refer to explicit commands but legitimate historical examples (i.e. synagogue attendance). People who make this kind of criticism do not realize that every command did not have to be explicitly written down, as legitimate historical examples are Biblically sufficient to show us that something is acceptable.

How do you know that Easter was not commanded, but the command was not explicitly recorded - i.e. it was something based on a legitimate historical example?

Daniel Ritchie · #44 (**permalink**) 06-18-2008, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AV1611

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Ritchie

Quote:

Originally Posted by AV1611

If it was not wrong for Israel to set aside a time of thanksgiving for God's providential goodness at harvest then how can it be wrong for the church to set aside a time of thanksgiving for God's providential goodness at harvest?

Maybe it's not.

If it is not wrong for the church to set aside a time of thanksgiving for God's providential goodness at harvest then how can it be wrong for the church to set aside a time of thanksgiving for God's love demonstrated through the birth of Christ?

"And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men." (Luke 2:10, 14)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Ritchie

The RPW does not only refer to explicit commands but legitimate historical examples (i.e. synagogue attendance). People who make this kind of criticism do not realize that every command did not have to be explicitly written down, as legitimate historical examples are Biblically sufficient to show us that something is acceptable.

How do you know that Easter was not commanded, but the command was not explicitly recorded - i.e. it was something based on a legitimate historical example?

Point 1 - we celebrate events in the life of Christ every Lord's Day, therefore, there is no need to have different holy days to celebrate them. 52 holy days a year is enough. Moreover, on what authority do you presume to impose the observance of such festivals upon my conscience? Are you saying that I am sinning by refusing to observe them and by spending my time in dominion duties?

Point 2 - since there is not record of Easter being observed by the apostles, it is not a legitimate historical example. Easter (Passover) has been replaced with the Lord's Supper (which should be celebrated every Lord's Day).

Daniel Ritchie · #45 (**permalink**) 06-18-2008, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AV1611

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Ritchie

Since it was on a new date it was a new day, since days fall on dates.

Did Jeroboam, in moving the Feast of Tabernacles from the seventh month to the eighth month, violate an explicit command from God?

Lev 23:34-43 "Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the feast of tabernacles for seven days unto the LORD. On the first day shall be an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. Seven days ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: on the eighth day shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: it is a solemn assembly; and ye shall do no servile work therein. These are the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day: Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD. Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath. And ye shall take you on the first day the boughs of goodly trees, branches of palm trees, and the boughs of thick trees, and willows of the brook; and ye shall rejoice before the LORD your God seven days. And ye shall keep it a feast unto the LORD seven days in the year. It shall be a statute for ever in your generations: ye shall celebrate it in the seventh month. Ye shall dwell in booths seven days; all that are Israelites born shall dwell in booths: That your generations may know that I made the children of Israel to dwell in booths, when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God."

Did Jeroboam, in moving the location of the Feast of Tabernacles from Jerusalem to Bethel and Dan, violate an explicit command from God?

Deut 16:16 "Three times in a year shall all thy males appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose; in the feast of unleavened bread, and in the feast of weeks, and in the feast of tabernacles: and they shall not appear before the LORD empty: Every man shall give as he is able, according to the blessing of the LORD thy God which he hath given thee."

Jeroboam knew what YHWH had commanded and did his own thing, "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4).

In short, he was not violating an explicit command but adding an additional date.

AV1611 · #46 (**permalink**) 06-18-2008, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Ritchie

In short, he was not violating an explicit command but adding an additional date.

It is clear from the biblical evidence I posted that he was violating an explicit command.

NaphtaliPress · #47 (**permalink**) 06-18-2008, 08:46 AM

George Gillespie, A Dispute Against the English Popish Ceremonies (Naphtali Press, 1993). The below is from sections online on the subject of holy days.
English Popish Ceremonies (Against Holy Days) | Naphtali Press
Part 1: Holy Days take away our Christian Liberty Proved Out of the Law (EPC 1.7 31-36) | Naphtali Press

The Bishop has yet a third dart to throw at us: If the church (he says)7 has power, upon occasional motives, to appoint occasional fasts or festivities, may not she, for constant and eternal blessings, which do infinitely excel all occasional benefits, appoint ordinary times of commemoration or thanksgiving? ANSWER. There are two reasons for which the church may and should appoint fasts or festivities upon occasional motives, and neither of them agrees with ordinary festivities. 1. Extraordinary fasts, either for obtaining some great blessing, or averting some great judgment, are necessary means to be used in such cases; likewise, extraordinary festivities are necessary testifications [testimonies] of our thankfulness for the benefits which we have impetrate [procured] by our extraordinary fasts; but ordinary festivities, for constant and eternal blessings, have no necessary use. The celebration of set anniversary days is no necessary mean for conserving the commemoration of the benefits of redemption, because we have occasion, not only every Sabbath day, but every other day, to call to mind these benefits, either in hearing, or reading, or meditating upon God’s word. I esteem and judge that the days consecrated to Christ must be lifted, says Danæus: Christ is born, is circumcised, dies, rises again for us every day in the preaching of the Gospel.8

2. God has given his church a general precept for extraordinary fasts (Joel 1:14; 2:15), as likewise for extraordinary festivities to praise God, and to give him thanks in the public assembly of his people, upon the occasional motive of some great benefit which, by the means of our fasting and praying, we have obtained (Zech. 8:19 with 7:3). If it is said that there is a general command for set festivities, because there is a command for preaching and hearing the word, and for praising God for his benefits; and there is no precept for particular fasts more than for particular festivities, I answer: Albeit there is a command for preaching and hearing the word, and for praising God for his benefits, yet is there no command (no, not in the most general generality) for annexing these exercises of religion to set anniversary days more than to other days; whereas it is plain that there is a general command for fasting and humiliation at some times more than at other times.

7. Ib. p. 26, 27 [i.e. Pro. in Perth Assem., part 3, p. 13).

8. Apud. Bald., de Cas. Consc., lib. 2, cap. 12, cas. 1. Dies Christo dicatos tollendos existimo judicoque, says Danæus: quotidie nobis in evangelii prædicatione nascitur, circumciditur, moritur, resurgit Christus.

This is why Gillespie and the Westminster Assembly of divines classed occasions for fastings and thanksgivings as part of the special (occasional vs. regular) worship of God (WCF 21.5). The distinction between these valid and authorized aspects of public worship and the imposed holy days against which Presbyterians and Puritans contended is common Presbyterian doctrine, as a quote from Southern Presbyterian, William S. Plumer makes clear (William S. Plumer, The Law of God, As Contained in the Ten Commandments [Philadelphia, 1864]):

Even days of fasting or thanksgiving are not holy days; but they are a part of secular time voluntarily devoted to God’s service. And if we are to perform these things at all, we must take some time for them. Yet none but God can sanctify a day so as to make it holy. The attempt to do this was one of the sins of Jeroboam, 1 Kings 12:33.

See also, The Religious Observance of Christmas and â€˜Holy Daysâ€™ in American Presbyterianism | Naphtali Press

Daniel Ritchie · #48 (**permalink**) 06-18-2008, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AV1611

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Ritchie

In short, he was not violating an explicit command but adding an additional date.

It is clear from the biblical evidence I posted that he was violating an explicit command.

On an NPW basis there was nothing to stop him from adding another date. However, you are right that in some sense he was violating an explicit command, as to add to God's word in worship by inventing our own rites which God did not authorize, was explicitly condemned.

AV1611 · #49 (**permalink**) 06-18-2008, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Ritchie

we celebrate events in the life of Christ every Lord's Day, therefore, there is no need to have different holy days to celebrate them.

This does not mean that we are forbidden from setting aside days to celebrate specific events in the life of Christ.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Ritchie

on what authority do you presume to impose the observance of such festivals upon my conscience?

They are not to be imposed, you are at liberty to keep them or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Ritchie

since there is no record of Easter being observed by the apostles, it is not a legitimate historical example.

There is no biblical record for the pouring out of water during the Feast of Tabernacles yet it happened. How then is this a legitimate historical example?

Just because there is no record of Easter being observed by the apostles does not mean they did not do so.

Recall our previous conversation:

Quote:

Was Israel wrong to celebrate harvest in the Autumn? No. Were they wrong to compose a hymn for this (Ps. 65)? No. Did they have any direct command from God to do this? No.

Quote:

Issues concerning the harvest are complex; firstly, how do you know that the harvest was not commanded, but the command was not explicitly recorded - i.e. it was something based on a legitimate historical example.

There are no biblical commands for what Israel did content wise, yet you say it must have been commanded just not recorded. Well I could argue the very same thing about easter. It was commanded, it was just not recorded.

This is one of the big problems with your position as I see it. How do we know what Israel did in worship? How do we know what the apostolic church did in worship?

I certainly hope that you are consistent in your argument and so forbid the celebration of Reformation Day on the 31st October. After all, that was not commaned and it falls on the same day as Halloween!

AV1611 · #50 (**permalink**) 06-18-2008, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Ritchie

On an NPW basis there was nothing to stop him from adding another date.

Yes there was, YHWH commanded that the Feast of Tabernacles be held on the 15th day of the 7th month. therefore by changing the day Jeroboam went against the command of YHWH, and this the NPW would forbid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Ritchie

However, you are right that in some sense he was violating an explicit command

I have demonstrated that YHWH gave Israel an explicit command. I have demonstrated that Jeroboam violated that explicit command.

AV1611 · #51 (**permalink**) 06-18-2008, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NaphtaliPress

Yet none but God can sanctify a day so as to make it holy. The attempt to do this was one of the sins of Jeroboam, 1 Kings 12:33.

I find this interpretation of the text mistaken. The sin of Jeroboam was the moving a Feast of YHWH. YHWH commanded that the Feast of Tabernacles be held on the 15th day of the 7th month. Therefore by changing the day to the 15th day of the 8th month Jeroboam went against an explicit command of YHWH and thereby sinned. This does not therefore prove that only God can sanctify a day. Furthermore, as Turretin points out, "we deny that those days are in themselves more holy than others; rather all are equal. If any sanctity is attributed to them, it does not belong to the time and the day, but to the divine worship."

Daniel Ritchie · #52 (**permalink**) 06-18-2008, 09:09 AM

Quote:

This is one of the big problems with your position as I see it. How do we know what Israel did in worship? How do we know what the apostolic church did in worship?

Richard, I am not going to waste my time going over the same old arguments again and again. I have had enough. You have been repeatedly given sound Biblical arguments and have refused to heed them.

The above quote shows that you simply do not understand the regulative principle; all we need in order to know how to worship the Lord has been recorded for us in Scripture. We do not need to go to extra-biblical sources to decide Christian doctrines. As I pointed out to you before in another thread on creation, your reliance upon extra-biblical literature is dangerous for the formulation of doctrine. After all, how do we know the apostles did not ascribe a lower form of worship to Mary? It is not explicitly forbidden and if you found some supposed historical evidence that they did, then you would have to say that this was acceptable. I exhort you as a brother in Christ to reconsider where you are going in your theology and tread more carefully.

Daniel Ritchie · #53 (**permalink**) 06-18-2008, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AV1611

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Ritchie

On an NPW basis there was nothing to stop him from adding another date.

Yes there was, YHWH commanded that the Feast of Tabernacles be held on the 15th day of the 7th month. therefore by changing the day Jeroboam went against the command of YHWH, and this the NPW would forbid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Ritchie

However, you are right that in some sense he was violating an explicit command

I have demonstrated that YHWH gave Israel an explicit command. I have demonstrated that Jeroboam violated that explicit command.

Look I have repeatedly pointed out that there was nothing to stop him from inventing an alternative date on an NPW basis as long as he did not abolish the date originally given. You are clearly clutching at straws.

NaphtaliPress · #54 (**permalink**) 06-18-2008, 09:13 AM

Jeroboam did not move a feast appointed by God, he set up a competing system.

Daniel Ritchie · #55 (**permalink**) 06-18-2008, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NaphtaliPress

Jeroboam did not move a feast appointed by God, he set up a competing system.

That would be the way I have always read the passage myself. But it seems that Richard differs.

AV1611 · #56 (**permalink**) 06-18-2008, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Ritchie

all we need in order to know how to worship the Lord has been recorded for us in Scripture

I agree. The problem is where the WCF states that God "may not be worshipped... [in] any other way not prescribed in the holy Scripture". By making the Scripture the sole rule of what we can do in worship, in terms of prescription, you run into all sorts of problems. Why? Because Israel did things in the worship of God that are unrecorded in Scripture and yet you yourself would not say was wrong. To my mind that is a major problem.

AV1611 · #57 (**permalink**) 06-18-2008, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NaphtaliPress

Jeroboam did not move a feast appointed by God, he set up a competing system.

Matthew Henry notes that "The feast of tabernacles, which God had appointed on the fifteenth day of the seventh month, he adjourned to the fifteenth day of the eighth month (1 Kings 12:32), the month which he devised of his own heart, to show his power in ecclesiastical matters, 1 Kings 12:33. The passover and pentecost he observed in their proper season, or did not observe them at all, or with little solemnity in comparison with this."

Jamieson, Fausset and Brown write "he changed the feast of tabernacles from the fifteenth of the seventh to the fifteenth of the eighth month".

Keil and Delitzsch note that "Jeroboam also transferred to the eighth month the feast which ought to have been kept in the seventh month (the feast of tabernacles, Leviticus 23:34.)."

Daniel Ritchie · #58 (**permalink**) 06-18-2008, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AV1611

Quote:

Originally Posted by NaphtaliPress

Jeroboam did not move a feast appointed by God, he set up a competing system.

Matthew Henry notes that "The feast of tabernacles, which God had appointed on the fifteenth day of the seventh month, he adjourned to the fifteenth day of the eighth month (1 Kings 12:32), the month which he devised of his own heart, to show his power in ecclesiastical matters, 1 Kings 12:33. The passover and pentecost he observed in their proper season, or did not observe them at all, or with little solemnity in comparison with this."

Jamieson, Fausset and Brown write "he changed the feast of tabernacles from the fifteenth of the seventh to the fifteenth of the eighth month".

Keil and Delitzsch note that "Jeroboam also transferred to the eighth month the feast which ought to have been kept in the seventh month (the feast of tabernacles, Leviticus 23:34.)."

Those quotes do not prove your point as they do not prove what they say from the text of Scripture. Moroever, the Matthew Henry quote is not consistent with your own Erastianism.