check this out- another RPW question (change of the Sabbath day)

ModernPuritan? · #1 (**permalink**) 06-16-2008, 02:41 PM

the RPW would state that Gods silence or abscense of a command means that the act is prohibited right?

"what is not explicitly commanded is forbidden in public worship
(follow up question after a response or two)

NaphtaliPress · #2 (**permalink**) 06-16-2008, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ModernPuritan?

the RPW would state that Gods silence or abscense of a command means that the act is prohibited right?

"what is not explicitly commanded is forbidden in public worship
(follow up question after a response or two)

A definition is explained here:
What is the Regulative Principle of Worship - The PuritanBoard

Whence the Regulative Principle of Worship? 2 - The PuritanBoard

and

Whence the Regulative Principle of Worship? 1 - The PuritanBoard

ModernPuritan? · #3 (**permalink**) 06-16-2008, 03:06 PM

cool, so here is the follow up.

Where Does God explicilty command us to change the sabbath day?

i know of various "on the first day this happened"- but first day then began saturday evening (what we would call saturday evening)

the Lords day- everyday is the Lords, forgive my lack of seminary training but, we interpret John/patmos as Lords day, day of the Lord as sunday, but what is wrong with the idea that perhaps what is meant is "The day when the Lord is gonna destroy satan, bring peace, etc wether it be monday, wednesday, or sunday"

so, if there is no explicit command for changing the sabbath than isnt that kind of hypocritical (for the RPWers) "we cant do christmas or easter because God doesnt command it. Sure we have examples of the Levites playing instruments or david, but that was relegated to the temple part only"

not looking for much of a fight- just curious how this all works out.

JBaldwin · #4 (**permalink**) 06-16-2008, 03:12 PM

Good question

ModernPuritan? · #5 (**permalink**) 06-16-2008, 03:13 PM

i wonder if i just signed my excommunication papers :P

ADKing · #6 (**permalink**) 06-16-2008, 03:22 PM

In order for something to have positive warrant it must fall into at least one of three catagories:

1. express command
2. deduced from good and necessary consequence
3. approved examples

Reformed exegetes have historically understood the change of the sabbath day from the 7th to the 1st to have the force of 2. a deduction from a good and necessary consequence and 3. approved examples. There may also be a positive command to assemble on the first day (I Corinthians 16.2).

In any case, there is reason for understanding the sabbath to have changed without an express command while still satisfying the burden for meeting the RPW.

ModernPuritan? · #7 (**permalink**) 06-16-2008, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADKing

In order for something to have positive warrant it must fall into at least one of three catagories:

1. express command
2. deduced from good and necessary consequence
3. approved examples

Reformed exegetes have historically understood the change of the sabbath day from the 7th to the 1st to have the force of 2. a deduction from a good and necessary consequence and 3. approved examples. There may also be a positive command to assemble on the first day (I Corinthians 16.2).

In any case, there is reason for understanding the sabbath to have changed without an express command while still satisfying the burden for meeting the RPW.

could you elaborate on how it meets number 2. I hope its not because People are lazy and this is just how its been done.

one number 3, how do we know that it was changed vs Paul just giving us not space filler but maybe "extra info"

it would seem that God uses/used evening to evening as His method of days or whatever, so how do we know that that on the first day means 10 am sunday morning vs. 7 pm saturday night?

a slightly weaker argument perhaps, but how does saturday to sunday meet 2 and 3. But instruments, holy days, hymnals do not?

ModernPuritan? · #8 (**permalink**) 06-16-2008, 04:07 PM

im also confused because it would seem that church history atleast up until the Romand catholic invasion that there was a different understanding of wether the sabbath was changed or not. ive provided a few quotes:

Quote:

Egypt (Oxyrhynchus Papyrus) (200-250 A.D.)
"Except ye make the sabbath a real sabbath (sabbatize the Sabbath," Greek), ye shall not see the Father." "The oxyrhynchus Papyri," pt,1, p.3, Logion 2, verso 4-11 (London Offices of the Egypt Exploration Fund, 1898).

Early Christians-C 3rd
"Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence: it is a rest for meditation of the law, not for idleness of the hands." "The Anti-Nicene Fathers," Vol 7,p. 413. From "Constitutions of the Holy Apostles," a document of the 3rd and 4th Centuries.

Africa (Alexandria) Origen
"After the festival of the unceasing sacrifice (the crucifixion) is put the second festival of the Sabbath, and it is fitting for whoever is righteous among the saints to keep also the festival of the Sabbath. There remaineth therefore a sabbatismus, that is, a keeping of the Sabbath, to the people of God (Hebrews 4:9)." "Homily on Numbers 23," par.4, in Migne, "Patrologia Graeca," Vol. 12,cols. 749, 750.

"The ancient Christians were very careful in the observance of Saturday, or the seventh day...It is plain that all the Oriental churches, and the greatest part of the world, observed the Sabbath as a festival...Athanasius likewise tells us that they held religious assembles on the Sabbath, not because they were infected with Judaism, but to worship Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, Epiphanius says the same." "Antiquities of the Christian Church," Vol.II Book XX, chap. 3, sec.1, 66. 1137,1138.

Abyssinia - Remnants of Philip's Evangelism
"In the last half of that century St. Ambrose of Milan stated officially that the Abyssinian bishop, Museus, had 'traveled almost everywhere in the country of the Seres' (China). For more than seventeen centuries the Abyssinian Church continued to sanctify Saturday as the holy day of the fourth commandment." Ambrose, DeMoribus, Brachmanorium Opera Ominia, 1132, found in Migne, Patrologia Latima, Vol.17, pp.1131,1132.

Spain - Council Elvira (A.D.305)
Canon 26 of the Council of Elvira reveals that the Church of Spainat that time kept Saturday, the seventh day. "As to fasting every Sabbath: Resolved, that the error be corrected of fasting every Sabbath." This resolution of the council is in direct opposition to the policy the church at Rome had inaugurated, that of commanding Sabbath as a fast day in order to humiliate it and make it repugnant to the people

Council Laodicea - A.D.365
"Canon 16-On Saturday the Gospels and other portions of the Scripture shall be read aloud." "Canon 29-Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday, but shall work on that day; but the Lord's day they shall especially honor, and as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day." Hefele's "Councils,"

Contra_Mundum · #9 (**permalink**) 06-16-2008, 05:44 PM

All those quotes do is demonstrate that the Christian church has from the beginning understood that the Christians too have a Sabbath, a Day of Rest. We are Sabbath-keepers, at least if we take God seriously, if we accept that tis is a moral requirement.

The question is: is our Sabbath the same as the OT Sabbath?

Can the Day be changed? Is this a possibility? Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, which means 1) the day is HIS (the Lord's Day), and 2) he can change it if he wants.

The Sabbath is the day of meeting with God. He calls the meeting; this isn't our great idea. He started meeting with his disciples after his resurrection on the day of his resurrection, the first day of the week. Then, a week later they are gathered together, and he makes another entrance. This is the beginning of a pattern. The disciples start to gather and pray 7 days a week. I'm sure God was pleased. But God makes the first day gathering unique by his special presence. He even pours out his Spirit on Pentecost, another first-day.

Note that when a day for Christian acts of worship is subsequently mentioned, it is the first day, Acts 20:7, 1 Cor. 16:2. And of course, John's reverie on the "Lord's Day" is mentioned, Rev. 1:10.

These facts indicate to us that the God-man has chosen a new day fit to commemorate his new Covenant, a day of Redemption, to meet with his people.

Hebrews 4:8 speaks of "another day". That day is our Sunday, the First Day, the Christian Sabbath.

NaphtaliPress · #10 (**permalink**) 06-16-2008, 05:52 PM

Fleshing out what Bruce has said, there is a useful chart on the disciples' meeting on the first day of the week here:
Exchange between Richard Bacon and Seventh Day Adventist

Quote:

Originally Posted by Contra_Mundum

All those quotes do is demonstrate that the Christian church has from the beginning understood that the Christians too have a Sabbath, a Day of Rest. We are Sabbath-keepers, at least if we take God seriously, if we accept that tis is a moral requirement.

The question is: is our Sabbath the same as the OT Sabbath?

Can the Day be changed? Is this a possibility? Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, which means 1) the day is HIS (the Lord's Day), and 2) he can change it if he wants.

The Sabbath is the day of meeting with God. He calls the meeting; this isn't our great idea. He started meeting with his disciples after his resurrection on the day of his resurrection, the first day of the week. Then, a week later they are gathered together, and he makes another entrance. This is the beginning of a pattern. The disciples start to gather and pray 7 days a week. I'm sure God was pleased. But God makes the first day gathering unique by his special presence. He even pours out his Spirit on Pentecost, another first-day.

Note that when a day for Christian acts of worship is subsequently mentioned, it is the first day, Acts 20:7, 1 Cor. 16:2. And of course, John's reverie on the "Lord's Day" is mentioned, Rev. 1:10.

These facts indicate to us that the God-man has chosen a new day fit to commemorate his new Covenant, a day of Redemption, to meet with his people.

Hebrews 4:8 speaks of "another day". That day is our Sunday, the First Day, the Christian Sabbath.

DMcFadden · #11 (**permalink**) 06-17-2008, 12:02 AM

The sabbath was a creation ordinance and pre-dates the giving of the law. In it, rest came at the end of the week. Exodus explains that the sabbath was also an ordinance of redemption. The greatest redemptive event in history was accomplished by Jesus Christ. His first day of the week resurrection sets the rest at the beginning of the week, a rest that gets fleshed out in the book of Hebrews. If the creational sabbath came on the seventh day, the redemptive sabbath came on Sunday. The early church understood this and honored the Lord's Day as the Chrisitan sabbath.