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Worship discuss Annual Presbyterians Do Not Celebrate Lent Thread in the The Church forums; Originally Posted by JP Wallace Originally Posted by Rich Koster The bronze serpent even had to be destroyed, due to idolatry, and that was previously ...

  1. #41
    J. Dean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JP Wallace View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Koster View Post
    The bronze serpent even had to be destroyed, due to idolatry, and that was previously commanded.
    This is a very important and helpful point - I've just been preaching through Hezekiah's life and the Reformation God worked during it and this was one of the applications I made,

    NKJ 2 Kings 18:4 He removed the high places and broke the sacred pillars, cut down the wooden image and broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made; for until those days the children of Israel burned incense to it, and called it Nehushtan.

    Part of the reformation was to get rid of a tradition, indeed a blessed tradition which had been misused...what was meant to be a memorial of God's grace and covenant faithfulness had become an object of worship in itself. Hezekiah reminded them that it was just 'brass' (Nehushtan).....application: let's get rid of the brass, all the things that have been abused by past generations.
    But where the things in and of themselves bad, or was it their misuse that made them bad?

    If Puritan/Reformed writings were abused, would the solution be to rid ourselves of all Puritan/Reformed writings?

    Calvinism, much as I love it, has the potential for abuse, but I certainly hope that based upon that alone we wouldn't scrap Calvinism simply because some have decided to go the route of hypercalvinism and fatalism.
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    jfhutson is offline. Puritanboard Freshman
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    I'd be interested in an argument against lent from someone who celebrates Christmas (with a worship service) and therefore rejects the Popish ceremonies argument.
    John Hutson
    Member, Redeemer Presbyterian Church (PCA)
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  3. #43
    Stargazer65 is offline. Puritanboard Freshman
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    I don't celebrate Lent, but I do take advantage of all the great fish specials during Lent.
    Kevin
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  4. #44
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    Pastor Wallace can answer of course, but if I may, I don't see a realistic example where specific authors' books would figure in idolatrous worship practices. If there is someway they could be treated like that serpent was, then the answer is that we remove them from the worship of God, per the rule supported by Hezekiah's example. Again, we are not speaking of things which have a necessary use and ordained of God (the truth, sacraments, etc.).
    All things and rites which have been notoriously abused to idolatry, if they are not such as either God or nature has made to be of a necessary use, should be utterly abolished and purged away from divine worship, in such sort that they may not be accounted nor used by us as sacred things or rites pertaining to the same.
    But the cross, surplice, kneeling in the act of receiving the communion, &c., are things and rites, &c., and are not such as either God or nature, &c.
    Therefore they should be utterly abolished, &c.
    I posted links to Gillespie's adducing and proving this rule in a previous post above. Here is Calvin's statement of it (translation from the French courtesy of Raymond V. Bottomly):
    “… that what is alleged of an Italian writer, that abuse does not take away the good usage, will not be true if one holds to it without exception: because it is not in the least commanded [i.e. it is commanded] to us to prudently watch that by our example we would not offend the infirm brothers, that of never undertaking that which would be illicit. For Saint Paul prohibits offending the brothers in eating of flesh which was sacrificed to idols, and speaks of one kind, he always gives as a general rule that we are to keep ourselves, from troubling the consciences of the weak by a bad or damaging example. Indeed, one would speak better and more wholesomely when one says that what God himself ordains may not be abolished for wrong use or abuse that is committed against it: but it is necessary to abstain from these things which, after they have been corrupted with error by human ordinance, if the usage of these is harmful and scandalizes the brothers. And here I marvel how this “Reformer”, finally, after granting that sometimes superstitions, ordained by public authority, have such strong popularity that it is necessary to take them away from the realm of man (like we read having been done by Hezekiah regarding the bronze serpent), yet he does not even a little consider that his shrewdness is a horror to ways of good conduct: in defending some rituals as supportable, he would oblige that all superstitions if they are weighty enough, should be considered as safe and whole. For what is there in the papacy that would not resemble a bronze serpent, if only at its beginning? Moses had it made and forged by the commandment of God: he had it kept for a sign of recognition. Among the virtues of Hezekiah that we are told is that he had it broken and reduced to ash. The superstitions for the most part, against that which true servants of God battle today, are spreading from here to who knows, as covered pits in the ground, seeing the same are filled with detestable errors, which can never be erased, unless that usage of them be taken away. Why, therefore, do we not confess simply that which is true, that this remedy is needed in order to remove the filth from the church?”
    Responsio Ad Versipellem Quendam Mediatorem, p. 41–44. [Cf. CR 37 (CO 9), 542. Cf. [French] “Response a Un Certain Moyenneur Rusé”, Recueil des Opuscules (Geneva: Stoer, 1611) 2191–2192.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Afterthought View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by NaphtaliPress
    Exactly because it has been notoriously abused to idolatry and will worship and why in the world would we want take our agenda for personal piety let alone corporate worship, from idolaters?
    Although, shouldn't there be a distinction made between those who celebrate Lent by fasting and those who happen to be fasting at the time of Lent? The latter could just as well fast at the time of Lent or otherwise but decided--for reasons not having to do with Lent being at that time--to fast at that time, whereas the former chose to fast because it was the time of Lent. Although, I suppose one would want to be careful anyway to make sure he or she is not misunderstood by others to be fasting for Lent.
    If you are fasting in conformity with Scripture (Matthew 6:16-19), who would know what season of the year you fast?
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  6. #46
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    Riding the light rail toward downtown San Francisco yesterday, passed St. Anne of the Sunset RC Church. Noticed they are doing their parish festival this Thursday, Friday and Saturday, advertising food, games and entertainment. Not sure how they fit that into Lent.

    There is an intrinsic difference between a regularly scheduled date based upon tradition and unwarranted church authority AND a day or days designated by church authorities for fasting, repentance and prayer in consideration of a specific, special, emergent, eminent and extraordinary, providential event such as famine, pestilence, belligerent attack, or evidence of God's displeasure and judgment. The latter is within the ministerial authority of elders much as the pastor decides what to preach on or pray about. The former adds an unwarranted element to the public worship of God.

    Individuals and families are free to fast and pray whenever they want, provided it does not interfere with regularly stated Lord's Day worship.
    Glenn Ferrell
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn Ferrell View Post
    Riding the light rail toward downtown San Francisco yesterday, passed St. Anne of the Sunset RC Church. Noticed they are doing their parish festival this Thursday, Friday and Saturday, advertising food, games and entertainment. Not sure how they fit that into Lent.
    The beginning of Lent is Mardi Gras.
    Sean
    Layman, First Presbyterian Church of Concord New Hampshire (PCA)
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  8. #48
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    Mardi Gras comes before Lent, not the second, third and forth day of it. Is that the way to start off 40 days of fasting?
    Glenn Ferrell
    Member of Presbytery of the Northern California and Nevada (OPC)
    Pastor, First Orthodox Presbyterian Church of San Francisco

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  9. #49
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    It is grievous how the church in our age is found so very wanting in those prescribed ordinances God, in His mercy, has given us; how much more grievous, then, is it when we arrogate the authority to ourselves to set times and seasons of our own uncommanded acts of "piety" which have no warrant from the Word of God?
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    therein.- Ps. 69
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  10. #50
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    My wife's stepfather is Catholic and he always gives up Diet Pepsi for lent. Putting aside for a moment whether or not it is proper to celebrate lent, I must say that when I consider what our Lord did for us, Diet Pepsi really seems to pale in comparison.
    Bill
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill The Baptist View Post
    My wife's stepfather is Catholic and he always gives up Diet Pepsi for lent. Putting aside for a moment whether or not it is proper to celebrate lent, I must say that when I consider what our Lord did for us, Diet Pepsi really seems to pale in comparison.
    I go to a Catholic school (not one of my smarter choices in life) and many of the papists are giving up fornication for lent, that, and texting while driving.
    Eric

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginalname View Post
    many of the papists are giving up fornication for lent, that, and texting while driving.
    Another papist, Newt Gingrich, announced that he's giving up desserts for lent.
    Norm
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefield
    If you are fasting in conformity with Scripture (Matthew 6:16-19), who would know what season of the year you fast?
    Good point. But I can imagine situations where even in following those guidelines, one may be "found out"--both due to the Ninth Commandment requiring truthfulness on a Christian's part and in putting 2 and 2 together. For example, at the very least, one's family will probably notice one's absence from a meal, though of course the probability of confusion arising from one's practice is much lower within the family. For another example, one living on a small college campus who is forced on a meal plan; others will probably notice that a person has gone missing from his or her regular eating hours and may inquire about it. For another example, if an outsider asks the fasting person out to eat. Nevertheless, these are quite special circumstances, and I'm sure in many of them, one could dodge the question by not making reference to fasting, which is where the "carefulness" would come in (though that won't stop the other from attempting to put 2 and 2 together); perhaps the most likely one would be being asked out to lunch or something. Perhaps there are other circumstances too.
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    SolaGratia is offline. Puritanboard Junior
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    According to Michael Horton the celebration of Lent leads us to Christ.


    Quote: "When unburdened by superstitious rites, Lent still holds tremendous promise if we will recover its evangelical purpose; namely, leading us and our children to Christ by his Word" (Horton).

    Thoughts about Lent - White Horse Inn Blog

    PLEASE NOTE: I totally disagreed (100%) with Michael Horton view on Lent!
    Last edited by SolaGratia; 02-28-2012 at 02:10 PM.
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    The Dutch celebrate 5 of the feast days.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. Dean View Post
    But where the things in and of themselves bad, or was it their misuse that made them bad?
    The things in this case were most certainly not bad in themselves, and it was the misuse of them that did make them bad. However it was not just any old misuse but the particularly henious misuse that was made that meant the serpent had to go. The application is as Chris has pointed out that anything that has been misused in such spiritually harmful ways as idolatry, or some other practice leading to or suggesting false worship, should be dispensed with.

    Chris's answer is better as it reference Gillespie and Calvin on the same points.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JP Wallace View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by J. Dean View Post
    But where the things in and of themselves bad, or was it their misuse that made them bad?
    The things in this case were most certainly not bad in themselves, and it was the misuse of them that did make them bad. However it was not just any old misuse but the particularly henious misuse that was made that meant the serpent had to go. The application is as Chris has pointed out that anything that has been misused in such spiritually harmful ways as idolatry, or some other practice leading to or suggesting false worship, should be dispensed with.

    Chris's answer is better as it reference Gillespie and Calvin on the same points.
    That is a fair enough answer, and still retains a broad application for liberty of conscience. Thank you!
    J. Dean, author
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backwoods Presbyterian View Post
    One of the downsides of moving down here is there are little to no Romanists around to fill my belly with their delicious fish fries.
    I figure that maybe if you were about an hour further to the south of where you are that you would have it in abundance.

    ---------- Post added at 10:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:06 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Marrow Man View Post
    What's an "Annual Presbyterian"? A Presbyterian who only attends church once a year? And is it anything like a "Great Commission Baptist"?

    On a related noted, we are thinking of having an annual sausage and hotdog roast on Fridays at the church during this time of the year. Fish signs are everywhere around here (including the fast food restaurants). Figure we should have an alternative. Ya'll are all invited.
    I know of a Southern Baptist Church in the New Orleans area that was planted pre Vatican II. My understanding is that the pastor would hang around grocery stores on Fridays and ask people who were buying meat if they were interested in attending a Bible study.

    ---------- Post added at 10:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:13 PM ----------

    Sadly, a number of evangelicals who would have never considered observing Lent are now doing so. This includes some so-called "Reformed" Baptists. They've thrown out much of the shallow revivalistic and decisionistic practices that many of them were brought up with. But perhaps they are so addicted to programs that perhaps they feel the need to latch onto this one since it has more depth, etc.?

    I wouldn't be surprised to see some Presbyterians of the PCA variety do it too. I know a good many observe the calendar, Advent, etc. but I'd think a smaller percentage of those would observe Lent.
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    Just a little info, as an ex Roman Catholic. On Ash Wednesday the priest says, "Remember man that you are dust and unto dust you will return" as he makes the sign of the Cross on your forehead. The Ashes are usually the ashes from the last Palm Sunday and represent repentance and mourning. The 40 days of Lent and "giving up" certain foods or pleasant things are meant to represent Jesus 40 days fasting in the wilderness prior to being tempted.
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    Peccavi is offline. Puritanboard Freshman
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    When I am asked what I am giving up for Lent, I usually reply "sin" in the most sanctimonious tone I can muster.
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    For Lent this year I'm giving up Lent and other Roman Catholic idolatry - same as last year and several preceding
    Christopher Henderson
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    reaganmarsh is offline. Puritanboard Junior
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    When I read the comment about the Annual Presbyterians, my first thought was that there are a ton of Annual Baptists as well...at least in southern Georgia! They don't need Lent for their excuses. ;-)
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  23. #63
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    I'm giving up superstitious papal holy-days for Lent.
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  24. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginalname View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill The Baptist View Post
    My wife's stepfather is Catholic and he always gives up Diet Pepsi for lent. Putting aside for a moment whether or not it is proper to celebrate lent, I must say that when I consider what our Lord did for us, Diet Pepsi really seems to pale in comparison.
    I go to a Catholic school (not one of my smarter choices in life) and many of the papists are giving up fornication for lent, that, and texting while driving.
    Really? Giving up fornication for lent? How about fornication for life. Same thing happens in some mainstream evangelical churches; talk about how great God is, how religious they are, and spend there spare time watching porn and fornicating without a drop of remorse.
    Sean
    Layman, First Presbyterian Church of Concord New Hampshire (PCA)
    Hillsborough, New Hampshire

  25. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rufus View Post
    Really? Giving up fornication for lent? How about fornication for life. Same thing happens in some mainstream evangelical churches; talk about how great God is, how religious they are, and spend there spare time watching porn and fornicating without a drop of remorse.
    If it was not absurd I would not have posted it.
    Eric

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  26. #66
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    Saw this on Facebook this morning.

    Martyn Lloyd-Jones on Lent:

    Giving up Lent

    Lent, of course, is a relic of Roman Catholicism. One can easily understand it in such an organization – it gives power to the priest, and so on – but there is, I repeat, no evidence whatsoever in favour of it in the New Testament, and it simply leads to this show of wisdom and human will power. It is people adding their works to the grace of God, and this is essentially Roman Catholic teaching. Well, my friends, let us get rid of this, let us not waste our time with it. We are to be led by the Spirit always.
    Martyn Lloyd-Jones (Born of God)
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