I was sitting in church this morning taking notes on the sermon. He was jumping about using the concept of a "portico" as a kesher to jump from John 5 to Jeremiah. I thought I really want to look up these verses and check the greek/hebrew.

Then I thought of esword and online bible with the LXX on a little Asus eee or Acer aspire one.

Which would be better and will both run XP OK? (I assume esword and the canadian "online bible" both require windows.

My wife thinks that there is a certain irony that I would contemplate being the first to use an electronic Bible and the last to give up the hymn book for the PowerPoint projector. (Last two years I have continued using the hymn book despite them no longer giving out the numbers)

__________________
Eoghan
member,Thurso Baptist Church
Scotland

specialist subject: Creationist Genetics (Bottleneck effect of the Ark)
interests: holiness (practical theology)
member of Biblical Creation Society (available as a guest speaker in the far north of Scotland)

esword runs on many platforms, windows is not required. I find computers to be distracting in service however. Why not just cary an NA27 and LXX if you don't want to use something like Leningrad or Stuttgart?

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Robert K. "Kelly" Brumbelow
In Inquirer's class at Grace Presbyterian (PCA) Cedartown, GA
Cedartown, Georgia

Dear Lord and Father of mankind, Forgive our foolish ways;
Reclothe us in our rightful mind, In purer lives Thy service find,
In deeper reverence, praise. - John Greenleaf Whittier 1807-1892

It's wonderful that the sermon prompted some questions, but I would think it much better to take some notes and go home and study those things on your own time. Personally, I think its highly inappropriate to bring a laptop/notebook to service. We are there to worship the Lord first and foremost, and I don't see how anyone can give God their full and undivided attention if they are busy looking up things on a notebook. And I would imagine that it would be a distraction to other people as well. I would just caution against using a notebook during service, just my humble opinion.

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Yvonne
Reformed Presbyterian
Currently seeking a Church

"A man's most glorious actions will at last be found to be but glorious sins, if he hath made himself, and not the glory of God, the end of those actions." -T. Brooks

Are you sure about that?

"Do you have a version of e-Sword for MAC?

I won't be developing a version of e-Sword specifically for MAC, but I have created an online interactive version: "e-Sword LIVE". Just visit the following URL and register to get access to all features: http://live.e-sword.net"
e-Sword - the Sword of the LORD with an electronic edge

It might run on Linux with WINE, but I'm unfamiliar with versions that run on non-windows platforms. And the online version would only work with an aircard or if the church had a wireless setup.

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Edward
Deacon
PCA
Texas

Yes I have a copy of esword running on my mac as well as macsword, Logos and accordance

I pull out a Bible and look things up during the Sermon. In theory, at least, doing it electronically isn't any different. And taking notes electronically isn't any different than writing in the margins or in a notebook.

Initially, it could be as a novelty, but folks would get used to it. I've seen them used in SS classes, but not yet in the main service. But I won't be surprised first time I see one.

The bible never gives us real commands or suggestions on what would and wouldn't be allowed for note taking. Lets be honest, there is nothing.

You could say using a notebook is more distracting, but that would depend upon the person, and it wouldn't have any verse of scripture that really supports this view.

I think it's really up to you, if you can use it with a clear conscience, go for it.

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Lee Johnston
Church of Scotland (Presbyterian)
Paisley, Scotland
Ephesians 1:4-5
"In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will."

Is that what you were thinking about during worship? Sounds like it might be a distraction.


Your minister has spent hours in prayerful consideration of the message to be delivered. He has also utilized many of the resources that you would want to access during worship. My advice is to focus on hearing the word of God and save your private library for personal study time.

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Jonathan
College Student
Grace Family Fellowship {SBC}
Kentucky

... yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

1 Corinthians 8:6

I say any tool that is profitable for you and not a distraction to the rest of the congregation is a good thing. Though I would caution against following a topic too far afield. Your primary focus should be on the Word being preached.

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James Helbert, Wytheville, VA
Providence Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCUS
TheBibleAlone.com / The Edinburgh Inn
"Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?” - Zechariah 3:2

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Laptops are welcome at our church (with the understanding that the purpose is note-taking and electronic usage of Bible, etc.). I've taken mine on occasion. I can certainly get more notes in typing than I can with paper & pen. It's much more legible also.

__________________
Josh Hicks, Chloë's Dad
Christ Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCGA
Facebook - The Calvinist Vent
Board Rules - Signature Rules - Suggestion Box

It is God that multiplies our sorrows.... God, as a righteous Judge, does it, which ought to silence us under all our sorrows; as many as they are, we have deserved them all, and more: nay, God, as a tender Father, does it for our necessary correction, that we may be humbled for sin, and weaned from the world by all our sorrows; and the good we get by them, with the comfort we have under them, will abundantly balance our sorrows, how greatly soever they are multiplied. - Matthew Henry

Maybe you could do it on your phone if you've got one of those iphones or Treo's. A lot smaller. Just don't start twittering or something.

__________________
The man who is disposed to think of his sin as a great calamity, rather than as a heinous crime, is not likely either to reverence God or to respect His law. - John Kennedy, 1873
Meg
Blog
Member, Intown Presbyterian Church,PCA, Portland, OR

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

I personally agree with Yvonne, in that it may be a distraction. I know it would be for me. Also, as Jonathan pointed out, your minister has spent time preparing to give that sermon. I too, take notes to study, however, a notebook is much less likely to cause one's focus to be pulled away from the message being delivered...IMHO.
Although the Bible may not give direct instruction on "how" to take notes, we should be considerate to others.

__________________
Seeking Godly Wisdom,

Melissa
Baptist>Seeking Reformed Church Home
Louisville, Ky

My only concern about laptops in Church would be the effect on fellow worshipers. So sitting in the back might be a good idea to avoid distracting others (of course, for a Presbyterian, sitting in the back is no change at all . . .)

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Philip
Potomac Hills Presbyterian Church (PCA) Leesburg, VA
Attending Reformed Presbyterian Church, Lookout Mountain, GA
Student Covenant College

The Importance of Being Orthodox

Friend, don't be so sure about that. I don't know what your church looks like, but ours has a subdued and austere look. If that can describe yours, then there will definitely be a problem and people will not get used to it. It's out of place in worship as its novelty and flashiness will distract.

This may not describe you, but there are many things that can distract:
-Because it IS different, people will look
-Power meter and audible alarm
-Clacking of keys
-Temptation to use wireless internet, or do other things besides typing notes (even if it "only take a second")

If a Christian wishes to take notes and something like a handicap is an impediment to pen and paper notetaking, then a laptop may be a viable alternative. However, that person should perhaps sit in a location where it would do the least amount of distracting.

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Mitch
Presbyterian Church of Coventry, CT (PCA)

To put forward another view, why shouldn't those who are easily distracted by the laptops attempt, through greater self control, to accomodate those who may be better able to benefit from the sermon by being able to take better and fuller notes with a laptop?

Also, the preference for a particular atmosphere in church does not appear to be a good argument against laptops used for note taking purposes.

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Mark
Independent baptist
Singapore

[quote=satz;677721][quote=PointingToChrist;677713]Does it not? What is the purpose of Sunday service? And what are conditions that would enhance the receptivity of preaching and understanding?

I don't think the onus is on the rest of the congregation to stop distracting themselves when a distracting element is placed in front of them. A laptop is typically out of place in a pew, has a bright screen, makes clicks and possibly beeps (if the user is not careful). I'm not sure if it was the original poster's intention to look up the Hebrew/Greek during the sermon, but there is that temptation when we have all these resources on a laptop vs. using pen and paper.

[quote=PointingToChrist;677731][quote=satz;677721]Surely allowing a listener to record down adequately the contents of the sermon would promote the reception of the preaching?

What makes a laptop a distracting element? The fact that it looks out of place in a pew is a matter of subjective preferrence which, for now, I would think should be subordinate to the practical function of note taking for a hearer.

If the church meeting place is well lit, the brightness of the screen should not really be a great distraction, nor do I think the sound of keys, while audible, is really much louder than the sound of writing or rustling paper.

[quote=PointingToChrist;677731][quote=satz;677721]Please edit your post to correct the attributions.

-----Added 8/24/2009 at 12:34:49 EST-----

I didn't think of it for my earlier post, but there are about 3 laptops used in the area at the back of the church where they control the sound. One controls the cameras; I'm not sure what the others are used for. So laptops in the pews in that area shouldn't be a problem. The balcony would be another area where they wouldn't be a problem.

Speaking of distractions, the sign language interpreter in the front was a distraction when it started, but folks soon adapted to it.

The difference is that a sign language interpreter may be necessary for someone that is hearing impaired to actually receive a sermon. However, a laptop is not a necessary tool for anyone to hear and receive a sermon.

For hundreds of years men have listened to sermons without the aid of laptops or any other recording device. In fact, it is argued that people paid far better attention during services in prior times than the typical churchgoer today! Our attention span is so short, especially within the U.S. Personally, I find that there is no longer any reverence during worship anymore! People eat, drink, doodle on papers, text on their cells, doze off, carry on conversations.......anything as long as "their consciences don't bind them" and its okay! Not only are these things disrespectful to those around them, and the Pastor who is giving the sermon....but mostly to God Himself!

And it should also be noted, that this discussion is not about taking notes, but if you look at the OP you will see its actually about looking up things on a notebook during a service! I don't find it necessary to understanding or even receiving the message of a sermon. I think its great if we have questions, or if a sermon prompts more thoughts.....but it is best to study those things on our own time. God is more than deserving of our undivided attention when we gather to worship HIM! HE deserves our complete reverence and awe!

I agree with Yvonne. I am skeptical about taking notes at all. Better to make focus on making the notes on your heart.

__________________
Paul
No denomination, affiliated with FIEC
"Deliver me from worldly dispositions, for I am born from above and destined for glory" - Valley of Vision
"They think it strange that you do not plunge with them into the same flood of dissipation" - Peter

WCF. The Directory of Public Worship.
Of the assembling of the congregation and their behaviour in the Publick worship of God.
Paragraph 5: The public worship being begun, the people are wholly to attend upon it, forebearing to read anything, except what the minister is reading or citing....and so on.

If the laptop or any device were being used to reference anything other than what the minister is reading or citing, then it seems WCF holders shouldn't use them. Even going off on other passages of scriputre is a distraction to what is being preached. I'd find it very distracting.

__________________
Ruby
Queensland, Australia


"He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee,
but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God."
Micah 6:8

I can see your point in needing to dig deeper into what your pastor is saying. Doesn't your church record your pastor's sermons? You could always go back and listen to them and do your research that that time. I agree with Yvonne. Worship service isn't a theological class room. You're there to worship.

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sarah
WI
OPC
My Pastor's Sermons: Mark Jenkins...he's awesome!!!

While I wholeheartedly applaud comprehensive personal study of the Holy Scriptures, I would strongly caution against the use of laptops in the public worship of God. God has commanded the use of oratory to proclaim the Truth of the Gospel. I do not believe the worship service is the time to conduct research on the same text from which the pastor is preaching. It is one thing to make a quick note of the headings, or a particularly gripping point that deserves future meditation. But it is another thing to bring in external information to supplement what the preacher is bringing to his flock.

I don't think the the sermon is the time for taking notes in the same way that one might do in a lecture or class. If one feels the need an electronic aid to help take notes during the sermon, then he is almost certainly incorrectly approaching the sermon.

Just as it would be a poor gesture to look up the etymology of a word used when your spouse was telling you how much they loved you, it is an equally poor gesture to do a word or definition search while God's word is being preached. If the preacher thinks it important that the congregation be given such information during the sermon, he will do so.

I would find it most distracting and irreverent to have someone beside me clack away on a laptop during the sermon.

Eoghan, that you are someone who is interested in this kind of in-depth bible study means that you and I would probably be instant friends if we both lived in Scotland. But I hope you would re-consider the use of electronics during the corporate worship of God's people. Brother, I really think that overall, you would be inhibiting your ability to attend to the preached Word.

__________________
Tim Lindsay
member, Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church, Halifax, NS, Canada
Living in Cape Town, South Africa
"under the Southern Cross, at the foot of Table Mountain, not far from the Cape of Good Hope"

Tim,

Could you explain further why this is so?

I am not talking about conducting academic type research during a sermon, but some hearers would benefit from being able to note down the references or even phrases used by the pastor during the sermon. Not everyone will always be able to recall well what the pastor has said after the sermon, nor will all the details and beneficial points of a sermon always be immediately apparently simply from returning to the main reference text.

I am not sure why it would not be more beneficial for someone to be able to take adequate notes (as that person sees fit) to be able to review later, rather than to simply listen to the sermon (even if it is slightly more attentively) but not be able to recall everything later - which may simply be a result of imperfect human memory and not any lack of reverence for the preaching.

I know from personal experience both academic and in church that trying to keep up with a speaker using pen and paper can be trying and may not always be possible. Surely I am not the only one in that category... ?


I can understand why someone might consider it distracting (although as explained above I am not sure I agree), but why irreverent? What is irreverent about wanting to record what is being preached for review and application later? Isn't the application of the preaching to the believers life after the service more important than the experience of listening to the sermon during the service? If taking notes with a laptop or any other instrument facilitates this, it seems it would support the aim of preaching better than to listen but not be able to remember everything which was preached.

Where am I looking at this wrongly?

As one who has used a laptop for a few years in the pew; here are my observations:

1.) I sit in the back; either the back row or next if I can get it, that way nobody is distracted by my screen.

2.) I keep the screen brightness as low as i can while still seeing it clearly.

3.) I mute all noise making things before I leave for church.


the fact is; I take my laptop/bible just about everywhere I go, and so to church also.

I like to follow along when passages are being read, just like anyone who brings a bible.

I don't go off on a ton of tangents either; but I do click a word definition here and there.

I see this as no different than someone bringing a bible to church, the medium of delivery is different; but the content is the same.

__________________
Robert
Lay Person
PCA
West Virginia
Go share your faith

If you are using it only as an electronic Bible, that's one thing. But I think he's looking up the Hebrew/Greek word to words used in the sermon... basically doing research from what I can tell.

[quote=TheocraticMonarchist;677592]
I think my problem is that the preaching is NOT expositional. There is no one set passage that is expounded it is thematic - that is what the preacher wants to say with a few supporting verses which are often quoted without being referenced. A little like our PowerPoint hymns which have had the hymn numbers removed (not entered).

It was not that long ago said Deacon was expounding the lyrics of the pole dancing Mylie Cyrus as his "text". Recognising the lyrics I could give the source but for the majority of the congregation over 16 it could have been a Keith Green Hymn? (I have a 10 year old daughter)

I am sorry to draw attention to your presuppositions TheocraticMonarchist but I am not sitting under the expositional preaching of an ordained minister. Rather a pastorless flock that was doing the Lobo Lobo (or at least part of it) during the kids choruses!

Yes I know we deserve better but the choice is attending a poor example of a reformed church or not attending church. Given that choice my concern is to set an example to my children of public worship and teaching them at home.

Well, like I said...I do look up words also.


BUT HAVING SAID THAT....

Since I've been in a Presby church with solid, expositional style preaching, I've been less inclined to do this...I'm MUCH MORE blessed by the sermons now and frankly, I think that I'm finding that just listening might be better for me.

So i guess i'm a little bit on the fence on this one.

[quote=TranZ4MR;677801]When the substance of the sermon hinges on particular words I am keen to verify the truth of what is being said. I know that the mode of most is to be a passive learner but that is not me. I am a creationist and used to questioning the presuppositions as well as the "evidence". When I am listening to a close exposition of a text, passage or book of scripture by attention is primarily on what is said. This however is the exception I cannot recall the last time I heard straight exposition. Most "modern" preaching is a synthesis of texts. In this Sunday's case the concept of four "porticos". Starting with the text of John 5:1-14 the deacon went on to explain that the pool of Bethesda colonnades led into the temple?

So does you pastor record his sermons so that you can be the berean you want to be but outside of worship?

Without commenting on whether or not to use a laptop, I figured I'd provide you some links:

Xiphos -- Open Source Bible Study Software -- Home
MacSword > Bible study software for Mac OS X

Additionally, I have BibleWorks 6 running flawlessly on my home computer (Linux) in Wine.

__________________
Casey, Chicagoland, OPC

I would dare say that most who are in the pew today: pen and paper note takers, electronic device note takers, codex researchers, electronic researchers, or none of the above are not active listeners. Active listening is a dying skill. Most people can scarcely remember the main points of a well researched, constructed, and delivered sermon the next day regardless of 'how well they take notes'. And, scarce few can follow rhetorical argument for more than about five minutes.

I don't believe the media used to take notes is the solution. The heart is the solution. The preconception of the use of time under the word is the problem. I do see it as a big problem if one is doing 'research' during the time of teaching/preaching. It is far too easy to miss what is being said. As a matter of fact you may think that the minister/teacher is off because you didn't listen fully. I know this to be a fact. I've had people do that during my preaching in the past. There has been some humble pie eaten after they have listened to the sermon in full context without chasing rabbit trails during the sermon.

__________________
We shall not adjust our Bible to the age; but before we have done with it, by God's grace, we shall adjust the age to the Bible. - Charles Haddon Spurgeon

Lawrence Underwood, Jr.
Pastor - Providence Family Fellowship / Mobile, Alabama
1644/46 LBC
My Blog - Imprimis

on Pastor Lawrence's post

__________________
Ewen
1689 LBCF
Assemblies of God Bible College
Singapore

I love laptops and am using one right now. But sermons are different than lectures. God is speaking through the preacher to you. God is present to change you through the preaching of the Word. If your wife sat you down to tell you something important, would you pull out your labtop to type notes and check her facts while she is speaking to you? I could see scribbling down a good point, and perhaps your wife would appreciate that kind of attention, but to fact check and type notes, with your eyes on the screen rather than on her would be most inappropriate. Body language is important both in giving and receiving communication. The preacher is talking to YOU on behalf of God. It's hard to connect relationally if you are too busy typing away and he can't look you in the eye to press home an important point.

I admire your desire to test every spirit, and you must do that like the Bereans, but you must do so in a manner appropriate to the relationship and the purpose of the communication. The pastor is not just a lecturer but a messenger from your Savior. He requires your utmost attention when the Word is preached.

And one more practical problem: The noise of typing in a quiet and attentive church setting would be distracting, no matter what the purpose, especially with older folks.

__________________
Patrick
MDiv, RTS Jackson
Pastor, Grace Presbyterian Church (OPC), Lisbon, NY

"He does well, that discourses of Christ; but he does infinitely better, that by experimental knowledge, feeds and lives on Christ." Thomas Brooks.
"Let us not please ourselves that we have deep understandings, but let us shew our understandings by our practice." Richard Sibbes

I'm completely unfamiliar with the idea of using a laptop in church, so I don't really want to take a stand on when or if its acceptable.

However, I will say that I would find it extremely distracting to have someone typing away by me. And if the computer make beeping noises etc., that would be even worse. I used to get really distracted in class when students had laptops (which by the way, I accept as my problem, not theirs). So, out of kindness for the "weaker sister" I think it might be best if you could take notes in a notebook or journal, and then check things when you go home. I take sermon notes so that I can contemplate things during the week, so I sympathize with your desire to take notes and look things up afterwards, but I think that using a laptop could cause others to stumble.

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Kathleen M
nondenominational
Montana

I think those who have posted subsequently have done a good job of explaining why this is so. I really have nothing to add.

I agree very much with Patrick. There is no way that the typing would not be distracting.

There is another matter - sermons are intentionally formed as they are. Does anyone think that the preacher couldn't rattle off a half dozen Scripture proofs after each statement? Or that he could not give the etymology of all significant words in Greek and Hebrew?

Of course he could. The preacher must decide what gets left in the study. That decision is intentional. It would actually be counterproductive to move in and out of the flow of a sermon by trying to fact-check, cross-reference, use Strongs, etc. Far better to listen actively (yes, Lawrence!) and make an appointment to speak to the pastor afterwards, or listen via MP3 or CD after when you can stop and start.

I'm a huge techie, and I think laptops in a service for the sermon are a really bad idea.

__________________
Fred Greco
Senior Pastor, Christ Church PCA (Katy, TX)
Christ Church Blog

"The heart is the main thing in true religion...It is the hinge and turning-point in the condition of man's soul. If the heart is alive to God and quickened by the Spirit, the man is a living Christian. If the heart is dead and has not the Spirit, the man is dead before God." (J.C. Ryle)

1. I was talking about tiny little laptops with an 8.9" screen. I have a 15.4" laptop which would be far too distracting for church but something the size of a Kindle would be fine. I have taken it to a Bible study at a friends house where we have to consider the Greek and Hebrew. What I object to there is when he pauses to answer an e-mail

2. I used to discuss the sermon contents with a previous minister but could make no headway as his recollection of what he said was often different from mine. No sermons were recorded which allowed "plausible deniability".

3. Making notes and actively considering the statements made helps me stay awake during a poorly prepared sermon. We are NOT talking about ideal situations. We ARE in large part talking about coping mechanisms.

4. As I think I said elsewhere where the text is clearly expounded, it is de facto the summary required to recall the sermon. I would never consider checking up on my old pastor Rev. Eric Alexander or Rev. Sinclair Ferguson because they stick so close to the text and are at great pains to show from whence they develop their argument - that is the scriptural text.

5. Going back some years now a brother used a Franklin Bookman in church. It had a 4 X 1 inch screen and displayed 3/4 lines at a time. It caused no stir.

6. I think we overlook the increasing use of technology. We cannot "worship" unless we have six miles of electrical cable. Many churches do not expect the congregation to carry bibles or hymn books. Bible verses are projected as plain text, two or three lines at a time, often without chapter numbers or verse numbers. Most churches no longer use hymnbooks, put the hymns up on the board or provide pew bibles.

7. I have not taken my laptop into church. I merely toy with the idea of buying a palm top (out of consideration for others).

8. If this is not an issue it is likely to become one and I expect churches will have to provide guidelines at some point. Ebooks like the Kindle will push the envelope!

I don't expect the congregation to carry Bibles or hymn books, because we supply them in every pew. Does your church not do that? I know some churches don't, but if finances are a consideration, what is a church doing buying (possibly) expensive projector equipment? Regardless, there are so many resources from which churches can get Bibles for free to inexpensive, that it would do a disservice not to have them in the pews or chairs.

I see no difference between a projector and a hymnal. They both are visual aids to provide the words to sing. Other than promoting more dependence on electrons there's nothing necessarily wrong with an overhead projector.