Did we talk about this yet???

I don't remember....

http://today.reuters.com/news/articl...src=rss&rpc=22

Basically, using your wireless to tap into internet through homes and/or business.

Is it considered illegal here in the U.S.A. I do it sometimes, and may have to stop.....when cruising around in my car, I know of a bunch of places where I can pull in, and check the internet....now some are the free coffee shops, so that's fine......some are businesses.....I figure, if they don't want people using it, they'll password it, which is easy......what do you all think?

Won't be long, wireless will prob. be city wide in most areas, I know some cities already have it.

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WWW.SURFWRITERS.BLOGSPOT.COM
Trevor
Christian/Husband/Father/Writer/Teacher--
--In that order.
Bethany Church, Sierra Madre, CA.
God is my King
"You've got to accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative, latch on to the affirmitive, and don't mess with Mr. in-between." Tony Bennett.

If you can't use a password I don't feel sorry for you having your signal used. It would be like leaving your laptop on the street up and running and getting angry if someone sat and used it.

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Adam Leavelle
Westminster OPC
Roaring Spring Pa.

http://www.myspace.com/aleavelle
"Speak wisdom to a fool and he'll think you have no sense at all"

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

and it's not "taking away" anything, even if you used somebodies item, it would be "used" more, so technically, taking something away, but, internet airwaves...nothing lost...so to me, it's not a problem, but as the article stated, in Britain they are calling it a "crime"......interesting I think. I guess there is a debate in the internet tech world about it......many saying, if the signal goes out of the boundaries of the property, free to use....unless password protected of course.

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WWW.SURFWRITERS.BLOGSPOT.COM
Trevor
Christian/Husband/Father/Writer/Teacher--
--In that order.
Bethany Church, Sierra Madre, CA.
God is my King
"You've got to accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative, latch on to the affirmitive, and don't mess with Mr. in-between." Tony Bennett.

If someone else paid for the bandwidth, and you are taking it without permission - it theft. It may be a minor sin - the equivalent of taking home paper clips from the office - but it's still theft plain and simple. It doesn't matter if the bandwidth is not being used, or that is doesn't increase the cost to the owner - it still bought and paid or by someone else and your taking someone else's property.

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R. Anthony Coletti
Midway Presbyterian Church (PCA)
Jonesborough, TN
[i]et venite et arguite me dicit Dominus[/i]

I know someone who uses his neighbor's wireless constantly. He doesn't have his own service, he just uses theirs. That, to me, is wrong. I don't see the harm in checking your email on someone else's wireless, but purposely placing your computer in a location in your house so that you can use for free what your neighbor pays for strikes me as wrong.

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My name is Davis. I am the Lord's.

I gather with saints at Bethel Presbyterian Church here in Lake Charles, LA, where I live.

[b][SIZE="3"]"[/SIZE][/b][COLOR="RoyalBlue"]I dwell in the high and holy place, also with him that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones[/COLOR].[b][SIZE="3"]"[/SIZE][/b] -Our Father, the Lord God (Isaiah 57:15)

Mine is password protected, but before I got it my new laptop found four other available connections - no passwords. It amazes me that folk don't protect. It does not rob you of anything if someone piggybacks, but it might slow your connection down a tad, and that I do not like.

I'm sure it cannot be made illegal ultimately, as it would be unworkable to enforce especially with many 'free' networks open. However, I do tend to agree that deliberately using what is someone elses without permission is theft.

JH

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Jonathan Hunt

Preaching Elder
Cheltenham Evangelical Free Church (Confessionally Based)
Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, United Kingdom

Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.
-- Thomas Elsworth

When you steal bandwidth - you are stealing something. You are taking what doesn't belong to you. And it does have a cost. You are adding traffic to the net, reducing the bandwidth and connection speed of the owner and everyone else. But at the heart of it is that no matter how we try to rationalize things like cheating on taxes or not giving back the extra 50 cents in change, it's theft and a violation of God's law. This "no harm, no foul" ethics is really sad coming from Christians.

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R. Anthony Coletti
Midway Presbyterian Church (PCA)
Jonesborough, TN
[i]et venite et arguite me dicit Dominus[/i]

There is also the issue of what others are surfing for under your i.p. If illegal sites are hit you could be culpable. Secure your networks.

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Chris Rhoades -33
Good Shepherd Presbyterian Church (PCA) Nashville, TN-Under Care

Vera theologia non theoretica, sed practica est; Finis siquidem eius agere est hoc est vitam vivere deiformem. - Martin Bucer
""True theology is not theoretical, but practical. The end of it is living, that is to live a godly life."

I don't hear anybody rationalizing cheating on taxes, or not giving back money......the idea is, many people do not password protect, for the purpose of sharing.....at least that is what's assumed.....that people know others can use their internet wireless if it's not protected, but they leave it unprotected......I'm not saying it's right to do.....but, as the connections are flying out there....OPEN....for use.....what if you have a cable tv set-up in your yard, so that passerby can watch, are they wrong for watching?

The purpose is not to rationalize sin, it's to deal with the new tech that's out there......if it were made "Legal" to use non-protected wireless connections, then would you still think it is a sin?

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WWW.SURFWRITERS.BLOGSPOT.COM
Trevor
Christian/Husband/Father/Writer/Teacher--
--In that order.
Bethany Church, Sierra Madre, CA.
God is my King
"You've got to accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative, latch on to the affirmitive, and don't mess with Mr. in-between." Tony Bennett.

Yes it's still a sin. Legalizing a sin does not make it morally OK.

Do you really think the implied invitation for viewing by of purposely setting a TV facing an open window is the same as failing to secure a wireless network?

I know if I leave my bicycle outside that someone will steal it. Does that mean when you see a bicycle outside I've given you permission to steal it? This is what I mean by rationaling sin. Taking that doesn't belong to you is theft. It's quite simple.

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R. Anthony Coletti
Midway Presbyterian Church (PCA)
Jonesborough, TN
[i]et venite et arguite me dicit Dominus[/i]

My connection came already password secured....I would have to un-secure it on purpose, there are internet sites that show where spots are to get internet access, in a world, where coffee shops, my local grocery, and many people, like the idea, of giving away their internet service to others, it's reasonable to say, that someone is leaving their internet open for others to use if needed......it's not stealing from them if they are offering it up.....so I don't see how, if it's legal, and in the agreement with the internet company, that if you wish to allow others to use your internet through wireless.....leave it unprotected...if not, protect it....and you think this would be a sin?

Now, what I see is the problem, is that the Internet Company is getting robbed, because more than one household is using it, so there, I see the problem, but not in the individual who choses to broadcast his wireless......that's why I used the cable scenario.....It's wrong to sell your cable, or to split it, but it's not wrong to let someone use (watch) your cable with your permission.......

As it stands though, I agree....that we don't know that they are offering up their internet, and we also (I don't) know the laws in regards to the internet companies.....so better safe than sorry, and unless specific permission is granted, then it's a no go.

I'm just discussing how things might play-out with this medium.....luckily I have plenty of sinless and lawful ways to get on the net.......

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WWW.SURFWRITERS.BLOGSPOT.COM
Trevor
Christian/Husband/Father/Writer/Teacher--
--In that order.
Bethany Church, Sierra Madre, CA.
God is my King
"You've got to accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative, latch on to the affirmitive, and don't mess with Mr. in-between." Tony Bennett.

It looks like a number of PBers are on an ethical slippery slope.

Just because a wireless access point is unprotected the does not mean owner is sharing it. Many, or even most, wireless routers come out of the box with protection turned off. If there is a default password, it is just to access the configuration features. (A default password is just as good as no password, anyone with a similar unit knows the default password.)

The owners go through the quick start guide to get it working. The manual is left unread so they don't know about MAC access control, WEP, or WPA, much less do anything about it.

There is no objective ethical difference between saying that an unprotected network is permission to use it and an unlocked door is permission to enter and take what is found.

BTW, my network uses both MAC access control and WPA with a long password.

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Soli Deo Gloria

John Schultz
Member, Riveroaks Reformed Presbyterian Church (PCA)
Germantown, TN

"The reason why we worship God in a slight way is because we do not see God in His glory"
Jeremiah Burroughs

I would say that most networks are unsecured out of ignorance and not charity.

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My name is Davis. I am the Lord's.

I gather with saints at Bethel Presbyterian Church here in Lake Charles, LA, where I live.

[b][SIZE="3"]"[/SIZE][/b][COLOR="RoyalBlue"]I dwell in the high and holy place, also with him that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones[/COLOR].[b][SIZE="3"]"[/SIZE][/b] -Our Father, the Lord God (Isaiah 57:15)

Our city is deliberately providing free wi-fi access. I learned yesterday that one antenna will be on the roof of my building! I'm pretty psyched!

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The man who is disposed to think of his sin as a great calamity, rather than as a heinous crime, is not likely either to reverence God or to respect His law. - John Kennedy, 1873
Meg
Blog
Member, Intown Presbyterian Church,PCA, Portland, OR

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

If I leave my house unlocked does that mean it's okay for you to walk in and steal my stuff?

Stealing wireless internet is like stealing cable, that is, it's stealing. Even if issues of bandwidth, etc. weren't considered it'd still be stealing. But what Anthony has been saying about you slowing down their network by taking up bandwidth is also true.

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DAVIDIVS DOCTVS VTRIVSQVE LINGVAE
Husband of Emilia
Member: First Reformed Presbyterian Church of Durham (RPCNA) - Durham, NC
Currently in the process of transferring membership to an as-yet-undecided church in Chapel Hill
Student: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, German Literature and Classics

I agree with those who say that "piggybacking" on someone else's internet service, certainly without their explicit permission, is theft.

It's probably a violation of the terms of agreement with the ISP.

I guess it is defrauding the ISP. I guess there are commercial and residential accounts. If a coffee shop has free wireless for their customers, haven't they paid the ISP to be able to offer that inducement to customers. If you are using someone else's residential account, you're depriving the ISP of revenue they would otherwise earn.

Someone else's carelessness is not a license to steal.

rsc

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R. Scott Clark, D.Phil
Professor of Church History and Historical Theology

"For Christ, His Gospel, and His Church"
Associate Pastor
Oceanside URC
The Heidelblog

In the middle of your sentence I'm thinking "He's rationalizing sin" and your next sentence "The purpose is not to rationalize sin..." Man, listen to that God-given conscience!.

Somebody's paying for it and it aint you and you didn't ask! That's stealing! STOP!

B

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Bryan Wiley
Layman
Reformed Baptist Church
Louisville, Kentucky

"Seek the Kingdom of God first."

Can't wait for the day it becomes like FM radio. Paid for by the advertisers and all we have to do is tune in, turn on, and drop out. Or something like that...

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Chris Rhoades -33
Good Shepherd Presbyterian Church (PCA) Nashville, TN-Under Care

Vera theologia non theoretica, sed practica est; Finis siquidem eius agere est hoc est vitam vivere deiformem. - Martin Bucer
""True theology is not theoretical, but practical. The end of it is living, that is to live a godly life."

It's like saying that it is ok to steal someone's car if they leave the keys in it.

For those that think piggybacking is ok - please explain how that expresses love for your neighbor?

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-JD
1Thess5:21
Ordained Deacon, PCA
Serving in an Acts 29 Church

MS

My links: ChristianSkepticism.org | personal | facebook | Prescriptive Psalmody

I have a bit of a problem with people saying that piggbacking is "stealing".

Any definition of "stealing" that I can think of includes depriving the victem of some object or the utility of some object that he lawfully owns. The case law in the OT set out specific restitution plans based on the value, and loss of use, as well as the loss of future use.

My difficulty is I can not imagine how I would "restore x-fold" to some one the value of my piggybacking. After all they never lost the object (internet access) or the future utility of the object.

Am I wong to think that a person who invites a bunch of the teens from church over to watch a dvd that is clearly marked "licensed for private home viewing ONLY" is also guilty of stealing liscencing fees from the distributer of the movie? This seems to me to be an analogous situation.

Civbert, you are the logic teacher what do you think?

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Kevin Rogers
Sovereign Community Church, PCA
Moncton NB

You're getting service from a provider for which you are not paying. In this sense you are first stealing from the Internet Service Provider. It's the same reason why burning your friend's cd is stealing. The artists should've gotten $30 for the sale of two cds but they only got $15 for the sale of one, yet two people still get the benefits. This is analgous to "piggybacking" internet.

Secondly, as has already been said several times, when multiple users are on the same connection bandwidth is used up. That means that you are slowing down the person's internet connection when you use it. If I live in a culdesac and everyone's using my internet, that means I'm going to download more slowly, etc. So the utility is being degraded for the person who is actually paying. Most people just don't realize this because it's more specialized knowledge of how technology works. If I pay for a 384 kb/s internet connection but only get 192 kb/s because people are "piggybacking," there is a problem.

__________________
DAVIDIVS DOCTVS VTRIVSQVE LINGVAE
Husband of Emilia
Member: First Reformed Presbyterian Church of Durham (RPCNA) - Durham, NC
Currently in the process of transferring membership to an as-yet-undecided church in Chapel Hill
Student: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, German Literature and Classics

I didn't realize that. Another good reason not to do it as a follower. It's inconsiderate and selfish in a more than theory. It has an effect.

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Bryan Wiley
Layman
Reformed Baptist Church
Louisville, Kentucky

"Seek the Kingdom of God first."

They lost the bandwidth taken. You should pay for that percentage of bandwidth you took.

Well this is a private home viewing isn't it?