"The Lord told me..."

turmeric · #1 (**permalink**) 10-03-2005, 11:42 PM

This may be the wrong forum for this - if so, mods feel free to move it.

The subject came up on another thread about people saying that God told them this or that thing, that He is showing them things from the Scripture which seem heretical to others.

Personal example; I know a Dispensationalist who is sure God is showing her wonderful things about Himself in Biblical prophecy - that He's showing her His faithfulness in that He will keep His promises to national Israel in a future millenium - and I'm convinced that Covenant theology is showing me how wonderful God is and what Christ has done for us.

We both think God is speaking to us through Scripture - and we're hearing Him say contradictory things, which is impossible.

One of my Dispie friend's favorite statements is that "we should just read the Word, not the teachings of men" by which she means R.C.Sproul. Then she listens to David Hocking. Now the thing is that we are both reduced to "listening to the teachings of men" and we would have to because neither of us are experts on exegesis.

I just get scared sometimes that I'm just believing things I want to be true, instead of what is true. How do we know?

BlackCalvinist · #2 (**permalink**) 10-04-2005, 01:13 AM

psst.... Meg....

click here :bigsmile:

Robin · #3 (**permalink**) 10-04-2005, 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by turmeric
One of my Dispie friend's favorite statements is that "we should just read the Word, not the teachings of men" by which she means R.C.Sproul. Then she listens to David Hocking. Now the thing is that we are both reduced to "listening to the teachings of men" and we would have to because neither of us are experts on exegesis.

I just get scared sometimes that I'm just believing things I want to be true, instead of what is true. How do we know?

Meg,

Yes, Greg Koukl's article is solid and insightful. But, a more Biblical answer is to plumb the New Testament for the descriptions of church order. This would include the places where Paul counsels the young pastor, Timothy to defend the Gospel against false teachers....

1 Timothy 1-20

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope,

To Timothy, my true child in the faith:

As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine, nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith. The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. Certain persons, by swerving from these, have wandered away into vain discussion, desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions.

Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound[c] doctrine, in accordance with the glorious gospel of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted. ........

This charge I entrust to you, Timothy, my child, in accordance with the prophecies previously made about you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith, among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.

As to "teachings of men" the whole Bible was written by men (upheld by the Holy Spirit.) God has appointed certain men to teach the Word and be shepherds over us. Test every thing with the Word of God. (As the Bereans did.)

Robin

PS. Heresy is a specific false teaching pertaining to essential doctrines, btw. All mature Christians should be versed in the essential doctrines (3 Forms) so as to not fall victim to false teachers. Paul taught on this extensively.

Me Died Blue · #4 (**permalink**) 10-04-2005, 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by turmeric
Personal example; I know a Dispensationalist who is sure God is showing her wonderful things about Himself in Biblical prophecy - that He's showing her His faithfulness in that He will keep His promises to national Israel in a future millenium - and I'm convinced that Covenant theology is showing me how wonderful God is and what Christ has done for us.

Does she believe that God is speaking things directly to her apart from the text in order to show her its meaning (revelation), or just that the Spirit is using only the text itself to show her its meaning (illumination)?

If the former, and she believes in continuing extra-biblical revelation today, then that belief itself is one she must also defend from Scripture. That is because if she claimed to know that special revelation apart from Scripture continues today, it would beg the question to claim that God told her that. To be sure, cessationists are also begging the question by presupposing that God will not reveal such a thing apart from Scripture - but both camps agree that regardless of whether God's revelation on the matter is limited to Scripture or not, His revelation on the matter would at least be consistent with Scripture. Thus, if you could show her some ways in which charismatism is inconsistent with Scripture, she could not appeal to extra-biblical revelation as a response, but would have to build her case for charismatism from Scripture, which of course we believe would not be able to be done. I would recommend Robertson's The Final Word for some great exegetical treatment of the subject.

If it is only the latter, and she believes the Spirit's use of the text to interpret itself is allowing her to see things about Bible prophecy, the matter would be significantly more simple to deal with, as you would then have set boundaries for the task of comparing her exegesis of the text with yours, and you would not have the additional burden of answering her appeals to experience. In that case, the entire understood framework of biblical redemption as outlined by Dispensationalism and Covenant Theology would have to be discussed several times before any meaningful discussion about eschatology and prophecies could take place.

Quote:

Originally posted by turmeric
One of my Dispie friend's favorite statements is that "we should just read the Word, not the teachings of men" by which she means R.C.Sproul. Then she listens to David Hocking. Now the thing is that we are both reduced to "listening to the teachings of men" and we would have to because neither of us are experts on exegesis.

I would ask her where she thinks she would be right now if the Reformation had never happened, and men like Luther, Calvin, Zwingli and Knox's teachings were never read - the answer is that she would be a Roman Catholic. Furthermore, the very nature and biblical duties of a pastor, of elders and of the Church inherently require that their works (thus, the works of men) be read for the believer's profit and understanding.

Quote:

Originally posted by turmeric
I just get scared sometimes that I'm just believing things I want to be true, instead of what is true. How do we know?

I can relate to your struggle here at certain times with certain areas, as I have yet to study on so many topics, and in one sense always will, of course. But a focus on the biblical basics and how they are done justice and applied by Reformed theology will always be reasuring...from the doctrine of Scripture and its absolute authority and sufficiency, to the doctrine of biblical redemption that ascribes all power and authority to God, to the eschatological focus that points everything to Christ as the focal point, rather than merely one of many focal points. In reflecting upon how the core of those foundational basics of the biblical faith (Scripture, God, Christ, etc.) are so plainly and simply given supreme focus and credit in Reformed theology, it will always be easier to keep faith that we will continue to see their truth, rather than their falsehood, as we progress in our walk with Christ as well as get into deeper study in time.

Meg, were you ever able to get a copy of Horton's In the Face of God? It still continues to help me keep so many issues such as these in perspective as I deepen my study of Scripture, the confessional standards and other works, and I think it would still be an invaluable resource for you.

Scott Bushey · #5 (**permalink**) 10-04-2005, 10:40 AM

Meg,
Did God as well tell her:

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/...king/times.htm

VIII. Smith "Ordained" a Man Who Admitted to Sexual Sin: Dr. David Hocking (born 1941) was best known as the host of the "Solid Rock Radio" ministry, which had been broadcast over 170 stations nationwide, and for many years was the host of the "BIOLA HOUR," a nationwide psychologically-oriented radio program affiliated with the liberal (apostate?) Biola University/Talbot Seminary/Rosemead School of Psychology institutions. He was also the senior pastor of the 6,000-member Calvary Church of Santa Ana, California, located just a few miles from Chuck Smith's Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa. (Despite the "Calvary" in both names, these two churches are not affiliated in any way.) Hocking resigned from the pastorate and from Solid Rock Radio on 10/7/92 after confessing to "sexual sin" with a married woman in his congregation. Yet only three days later, Hocking stated that he wanted to return to the pulpit!

To the credit of the elders at Calvary Church Santa Ana, Hocking was permanently expelled (i.e., "ex-communicated") after a dispute over his desired "restoration" after his "moral failure"; i.e., Hocking refused to accept the three-year restoration plan of the elders. (It should be noted that Hocking never admitted to committing adultery, but only "sexual sin, short of sexual intercourse" and to "fondling.") But, to the rescue came Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel. Smith pre-empted the discipline process of Calvary Santa Ana by immediately hiring Hocking as a Calvary Chapel pastor. Smith then declared, "If he [Hocking] doesn't resume his teaching, I'm afraid he'll be literally and totally destroyed." Thanks to Chuck Smith and the leadership at Calvary Chapel, a statement was made that, in effect, it's okay to "ordain" a man to teach and preach even though he had admitted to sexual immorality. (Reported in the March-April 1993, Bible For Today Newsreport; the 4/5/93, Christian News; and the 2/8/93 & 3/15/93, Calvary Contender.)

This then turned into a simple sheep-stealing exercise, as Calvary Church emptied out and Calvary Chapel further filled-up, due entirely to the presence of David Hocking. Calvary Church went into a financial downspin, and having Hocking preaching less than ten miles away on Wednesday nights made the situation much worse. The 5/2/93 Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa Sunday Church bulletin showed that Hocking had been fully incorporated into Calvary Chapel's teaching ministry. Hocking was listed as teaching the Wednesday night Bible Study held in Calvary Chapel's "sanctuary," and was scheduled to speak at the 5/22/93 Southern California Men's Business Conference (along with Chuck Smith). Though no longer affiliated with Calvary Chapel (he left in 1995), while there Hocking maintained a wide range of teaching duties, including the Wednesday night Bible Study, a 2-hour class at Calvary Chapel Bible College, and a nightly radio program on Calvary Chapel's KWVE radio station ("Hope for Today," heard in 21 markets).

If this woman is being led by this man, I expect she would believe anything.

Sola Scriptura.

[Edited on 10-4-2005 by Scott Bushey]

Puritan Sailor · #6 (**permalink**) 10-04-2005, 11:31 AM

Simply ask her why she interprets the text that way. This will reveal her presuppositions. Then you can ask her where in Scripture she gets those presuppositions. When she begins to question these, then you can help her build those presuppositions on clearer texts of Scripture.

turmeric · #7 (**permalink**) 10-04-2005, 04:25 PM

Thanks all. Chris, I was able to get a copy of Horton's book, it's very good.

Richard King · #8 (**permalink**) 10-07-2005, 01:42 AM

happens to the Dubya, this could explain a lot:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pre.../06/bush.shtml

BlackCalvinist · #9 (**permalink**) 10-07-2005, 06:18 PM

That's hearsay.