Inability to control thoughts.

wretchedworm · #1 (**permalink**) 08-27-2006, 02:47 PM

Hi,

This is something that I've never mentioned before to anybody but I'd just like to find out something.

I know as Christians, we become conscious of sin in a new way ever since being born again. Sin becomes so much vile and we often struggle fighting it thru the progressive sanctification of our christian life.

But what I would like to know is,
Is it that much of a battle, so much as to an extent, to have uncontrollable sinful thoughts, almost as if there's another personality in your head?
I'd be more specific.

eg.
-split second flashes of sinful acts in your head for no reason. (split second, because you cut them off once they come. but why they come (given the circumstances) is still pretty much for no reason.
-hearing another voice (and u dunno if its really you or another voice) that blasphemes God for a split second even though u try to fight it and u feel totally wretched after that because u don't want to. (not as often)

Is this a sign of serious spiritual warfare? (That is I presume most christians don't experience that.)

Please help. Thanks

[Edited on 27-8-2006 by wretchedworm]

Scott Bushey · #2 (**permalink**) 08-27-2006, 02:54 PM

It is spiritual warfare; however, we do indulge it from time to time and make ourselves available to the wiles of the devils.

Jesus' response to the devil:

Matthew 4:3-4 3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Our recourse is the same:

Matthew 26:41 41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

James 4:7 7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

2 Corinthians 10:3-5 3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds

5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Philippians 4:8 8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

[Edited on 8-27-2006 by Scott Bushey]

wretchedworm · #3 (**permalink**) 08-27-2006, 03:04 PM

so I take it most christians do not experience this?

[Edited on 27-8-2006 by wretchedworm]

LAYMAN JOE · #4 (**permalink**) 08-27-2006, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wretchedworm
so I take it most christians do not experience this?

[Edited on 27-8-2006 by wretchedworm]

I know many who expierience this including myself (split second flashes of sinful acts in your head for no reason). I have also heard Ministers preach on this subject so it must be common enough. Dont think your alone in this.

Swampguy · #5 (**permalink**) 08-27-2006, 03:25 PM

It only happens to humans. My worst time is going to sleep. It seems like my mind turns against me. What I do is try to review the things that I have read that day from my studies and devotions. Don't let it worry you it happens to all of us. Just don't dwell on these thoughts.

fivepointcalvinist · #6 (**permalink**) 08-27-2006, 03:53 PM

good post; i often have these 'spontaneous' visions or thoughts of doing very evil things but have never had the guts to ask anyone else, for fear of exposing myself for the wretched sinner i am. it seems as though the 'battle' becomes more intense when i begin to pray. im thankful God is wise and forgiving...

Peter · #7 (**permalink**) 08-27-2006, 04:28 PM

I don't think a I split second thought that you immediately cut off is sin. Its a temptation. What you do with it determines whether it is sin. If you turn it over in your mind it is sinful lust and blasphemy but if you make no provision for it then you have nothing to be guilty of. Also as Scott suggested, I don't even think such thoughts are necessarily of the sinful flesh. If they arise seemingly out of no where they're probably the result of Satanic activity.

Pilgrim · #8 (**permalink**) 08-27-2006, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter
I don't think a I split second thought that you immediately cut off is sin. Its a temptation. What you do with it determines whether it is sin. If you turn it over in your mind it is sinful lust and blasphemy but if you make no provision for it then you have nothing to be guilty of. Also as Scott suggested, I don't even think such thoughts are necessarily of the sinful flesh. If they arise seemingly out of no where they're probably the result of Satanic activity.

Laura · #9 (**permalink**) 08-27-2006, 04:43 PM

Great question, ah, worm. I don't think you are abnormal; in fact I think the thought life is the main battleground for every Christian, and things like this are evidence of it. I would highly recommend a treatise called "The Vanity of Thoughts" by Thomas Goodwin. Here are just a couple relevant excerpts that should help you; but if at all possible, read the whole thing!

Quote:

The conclusion is: it is not what thoughts are in your hearts, or what passes through them, but it is what lodging you give to them that makes the difference, that proves your repentance. Many good thoughts and motions may pass as strangers through a bad man´s heart. And, likewise, multitudes of vain thoughts may make a thoroughfare of a believer´s heart, disturbing him in good duties, knocking on his heart to interrupt him. These may break in upon the heart of a good man, but they will not be allowed to stay there, they will not be fostered or harbored there.

. . . For nothing defiles a man but what comes from within (Matt 15), that is, that which the heart has conceived within it"”as thoughts of uncleanness"”in which, although Satan himself be the father of them, the heart is the mother and womb. These therefore the heart loves, as a mother loves her natural children. It is by that we may distinguish them from the others from outside, when the heart is soft toward them, when there is an inward love for them, so that the heart kisses the child"”then they are truly our thoughts. When the heart broods on those eggs, then they are surely our thoughts, even if they come from the outside. . . .

This much must be added, that even those thoughts in which the soul is passive, when Satan casts in evil thoughts which we in no way own, in which he rapes the heart (for if there is no consent to them within us, then it is no more than rape, as it is in the Law)"”even those thoughts are often punishments meted out to us because of our neglect toward our thoughts, because we have allowed them to wander (as Dinah did, for when she went out to view the daughters of the land she was taken and raped against her will, but it was a punishment for her curiosity). Or they may be punishments for the neglect of good motions of the Spirit (for if we resist and grieve the Spirit, He may deal with us as we deal with our children, He may allow us to be scared by bugbears, or be grieved by Satan, so that we may learn what it is to neglect Him and to harbor vanity).

[Edited on 8-27-2006 by Laura]

bond-servant · #10 (**permalink**) 08-27-2006, 05:53 PM

I agree. I think we all have these, but we should not entertain them. It can be either spiritual warfare or simply our wretched flesh nature. Either way, you are doing the right thing by not dwelling on them!

turmeric · #11 (**permalink**) 08-27-2006, 06:53 PM

John Bunyan was tormented by this kind of thing for years. He talks about it in Grace Abounding to the Chief of Sinners which is his autobiography.

jaybird0827 · #12 (**permalink**) 08-27-2006, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LAYMAN JOE

Quote:

Originally posted by wretchedworm
so I take it most christians do not experience this?

[Edited on 27-8-2006 by wretchedworm]

I know many who expierience this including myself (split second flashes of sinful acts in your head for no reason). I have also heard Ministers preach on this subject so it must be common enough. Dont think your alone in this.

I think most Christians experience this. I'm still fighting a battle that intensified nearly 20 years ago. Thankfully the battle is the Lord's; at times I honestly don't know between the fiery darts of the evil one and the corruption that we continue to bear in this life even after conversion.

PuritanCovenanter · #13 (**permalink**) 08-27-2006, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?

Everyone has this problem. After many years of scripture meditation and prayer the thing attacks less and less. But it doesn't ever seem to fully go away. Luther use to say something about us not being able to stop the birds from flying over our heads but that we could keep them from building nests in our hair.

Quote:

(2Co 10:3) For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:

(2Co 10:4) (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds

(2Co 10:5) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Quote:

Jos 1:8 This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.

Quote:

(Psa 1:1) Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

(Psa 1:2) But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

(Psa 1:3) And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.

As Bunyan's inscription on the inside of his bible use to say.... This book will keep you from sin or sin will keep you from this book.

Renewing the mind is an all important life long pursuit.

wretchedworm · #14 (**permalink**) 08-27-2006, 09:32 PM

Thank you so much for all the replies.
It's comforting to know that I'm not alone in the fight.
Sometimes it just drives me to my knees but I'll just have to remember the battle is the Lord's.

In Him,
Wretchedworm

armourbearer · #15 (**permalink**) 08-27-2006, 09:34 PM

Evil thoughts, even flashes, arise from a man's own heart, and are an evidence that all the imaginations of man's heart are only evil continually; these still continue to plague the regenerate until the day that the Lord is pleased to deliver him from the body of his death.

Concerning remedies, we can all profit from William Perkins' biblical advice in a Treatise of Man's Imaginations.

Quote:

Of the guarding of our hearts.

The second rule for the reformation of our thoughts is given by Solomon (Prov. 4:23), keep, or counterguard thy heart above all watch and ward, that is, guard and keep thy heart more than any thing that is watched or guarded, whether city, house, treasure or such like; and the reason adjoined showeth the necessities of the rule, for out of it come the issues of life.

In the right guarding of the heart, three duties must be performed: first we must covenant with our outward senses, resolving fully with our selves by God's grace, that none of them shall be the instruments, the beginning or occasion of any sin in heart, or life. This covenant Job made with his eyes, not to look upon a maid, to lust after her (Job. 31:1). And David (Ps. 119:37) prayed the Lord to direct and keep his eyes from beholding vanity. Now look how these holy men dealt with their eyes, so must we proportionably deal for all the outward senses of our body; binding them all, after their example, from being the means of provocation to any sin. This duty is most necessary, for the outward senses be the doors and windows of the soul, and unless good care be had thereto, the devil will enter in by them and fill the soul with all corruption.

Secondly, we must observe our evil thoughts, and at their first arising, stop and restrain them, not suffering them to take any place in our hearts: this is a special means to preserve and guard the heart; for from the thoughts proceed all bad desires, corrupt affections, evil words and actions. The mind must first conceive before the will can desire, or the affections be delighted, or the members of the body practise any thing; so that whatsoever is of a loose life, and bad behaviour, it cometh from the profaneness of his heart in evil thoughts. Neither can it be hoped that any man should reform his life that will not guard his heart, and keep his mind from wicked imaginations. The devil cannot work his will upon man's affections, or prevail over man's will but by thoughts; and therefore it is necessary, that the first motions of evil in the mind be restrained at the beginning.

Thirdly, we must with all care cherish and maintain every good motion of God's Spirit that is caused in us by the ministry of the word, or by the advice of God's children; for these are the sparks and flames of grace, which Paul meaneth when he saith (1 Thess. 5:19), quench not the Spirit.

Larry Hughes · #16 (**permalink**) 08-27-2006, 10:39 PM

Wretchedworm,

Let me offer you some help, some Gospel help, because I know what you are talking about.

First, we all have them in varying degrees and according to our experiences and individual peculiarities.

Second, and this is crucial, you must understand the real definition of "œsin" per fallen man and it is NOT, I repeat, NOT just immorality. This is crucial. Sin is truly "œbeing curved in upon your self" good or bad, thought, word and deed. As Augustine said if you understand this condition, THEN you can begin to understand that sin can "œtake on quite a NICE gloss". The opposite of sin is as Christ said utter love toward God and altruistic love toward my neighbor "“ that is to say utterly curved outward and away from self "“ especially toward gain toward self.

Here in lies the true bondage of the will "“ so fallen EVERY attempt we make to "œjustify or sanctify" ourselves becomes sin (curved inward upon one´s self), even if and especially if it has "œholy" addendum to it. E.g. You cannot stop thinking about yourself by trying to stop thinking about yourself, and any attempt you make at it, even if it saves the whole world, is in sum total to "œsave yourself" and thus worse sin, yet "œvery clean looking".

So what if you stop thinking ill thoughts by some "œinward" power of will. All you´ve done is to make yourself a devil of high piety, and you will certainly condemn others for not attaining this "œhigh" religious attainment and at length at least in your mind you will persecute them.

The more and more "œlaws" you are given to "œattempt to stop this inward struggle" will avail you absolutely nothing - for even if you cease, you are still curved inward upon yourself (i.e. sin). It takes great self energy and self focus to so "œcure" such inward things of the self, and the more you do this you will be more tightly curved inward. In essences worse a sinner than before, but "œcleaner" in product.

The cure is this, Christ has died for even your inner thoughts. His love is so great for you that it covers those for the rest of your life. License to sin? Hardly, only the Pharisee would disdain the Gospel so and ask that question in order to subvert the Gospel, the despairing sufferer of the Pharisee´s heavy burden sees it as life rather than foolishness.

The only way to true godly love is to not command it. Love cannot be commanded else it is false. This is why the Law can only "˜point to´ love and never give the power. For love that is done by constraint, fear of punishment or hope of reward, is no love at all, but again the inner curving of sin. Only a love from outside of us, Christ crucified, gives us the power. It says, "œI took care of that for you 2000+ years ago for you and there´s nothing left for you to do." Only THAT kind of love can give you the power to go on and actually love.

One cannot even command "œstop focusing upon yourself" for that forces one to actually focus on one´s self. Only a continual refreshed fixing upon the Cross of Christ can "œpull us out of ourselves". Thus, Paul said "œthe Gospel is the power".

The LAST place you need to be LOOKING, the WORST advice you can be given is to look inward or toward religious attainments. When you struggle inwardly say to yourself and Satan, "œI am baptized and though I am a great sinner STILL, I have God´s sure promise of eternal life, forgiveness of sins and cleansing from all my sin." Then go on with your day. As we are more and more certain of God´s grace for us, we are more and more able to love in the true sense of love which is the sum of the Law. This IS having the Law written upon the heart. NOT in commands with threats of punishment or hope of reward or selfish attainments of "œsanctification" which are in the end utterly selfish and worse sin, but to NATURALLY love without "œtrying to love". But this can ONLY be had if we are fixed upon Christ crucified FOR US. And this can only be had if shepherds placard Christ crucified constantly to you for you.

Yours truly,

Larry

panta dokimazete · #17 (**permalink**) 08-27-2006, 10:41 PM

The difference between temptation and sin is dwelling.

Glad someone posted on this - I also appreciate the fact that I am not alone - mine seem to be cyclical. Go for weeks without them, then an onslaught for several days.

-JD

Peter · #18 (**permalink**) 08-27-2006, 10:55 PM

Not all evil flashes darted on the soul are of the sinful heart. Christ himself experienced this Matt 4 and he was holy, harmless and undefiled.

armourbearer · #19 (**permalink**) 08-27-2006, 11:42 PM

Our Lord's temptations were presented to him externally, and not one evil thought or desire ever flashed, not even momentarily, before His holy soul. Man is responsible for every thought and desire: ""out of the heart proceed evil thoughts," Matt. 15:19.

Augusta · #20 (**permalink**) 08-27-2006, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Larry Hughes
Wretchedworm,

Let me offer you some help, some Gospel help, because I know what you are talking about.

First, we all have them in varying degrees and according to our experiences and individual peculiarities.

Second, and this is crucial, you must understand the real definition of "œsin" per fallen man and it is NOT, I repeat, NOT just immorality. This is crucial. Sin is truly "œbeing curved in upon your self" good or bad, thought, word and deed. As Augustine said if you understand this condition, THEN you can begin to understand that sin can "œtake on quite a NICE gloss". The opposite of sin is as Christ said utter love toward God and altruistic love toward my neighbor "“ that is to say utterly curved outward and away from self "“ especially toward gain toward self.

Here in lies the true bondage of the will "“ so fallen EVERY attempt we make to "œjustify or sanctify" ourselves becomes sin (curved inward upon one´s self), even if and especially if it has "œholy" addendum to it. E.g. You cannot stop thinking about yourself by trying to stop thinking about yourself, and any attempt you make at it, even if it saves the whole world, is in sum total to "œsave yourself" and thus worse sin, yet "œvery clean looking".

So what if you stop thinking ill thoughts by some "œinward" power of will. All you´ve done is to make yourself a devil of high piety, and you will certainly condemn others for not attaining this "œhigh" religious attainment and at length at least in your mind you will persecute them.

The more and more "œlaws" you are given to "œattempt to stop this inward struggle" will avail you absolutely nothing - for even if you cease, you are still curved inward upon yourself (i.e. sin). It takes great self energy and self focus to so "œcure" such inward things of the self, and the more you do this you will be more tightly curved inward. In essences worse a sinner than before, but "œcleaner" in product.

The cure is this, Christ has died for even your inner thoughts. His love is so great for you that it covers those for the rest of your life. License to sin? Hardly, only the Pharisee would disdain the Gospel so and ask that question in order to subvert the Gospel, the despairing sufferer of the Pharisee´s heavy burden sees it as life rather than foolishness.

The only way to true godly love is to not command it. Love cannot be commanded else it is false. This is why the Law can only "˜point to´ love and never give the power. For love that is done by constraint, fear of punishment or hope of reward, is no love at all, but again the inner curving of sin. Only a love from outside of us, Christ crucified, gives us the power. It says, "œI took care of that for you 2000+ years ago for you and there´s nothing left for you to do." Only THAT kind of love can give you the power to go on and actually love.

One cannot even command "œstop focusing upon yourself" for that forces one to actually focus on one´s self. Only a continual refreshed fixing upon the Cross of Christ can "œpull us out of ourselves". Thus, Paul said "œthe Gospel is the power".

The LAST place you need to be LOOKING, the WORST advice you can be given is to look inward or toward religious attainments. When you struggle inwardly say to yourself and Satan, "œI am baptized and though I am a great sinner STILL, I have God´s sure promise of eternal life, forgiveness of sins and cleansing from all my sin." Then go on with your day. As we are more and more certain of God´s grace for us, we are more and more able to love in the true sense of love which is the sum of the Law. This IS having the Law written upon the heart. NOT in commands with threats of punishment or hope of reward or selfish attainments of "œsanctification" which are in the end utterly selfish and worse sin, but to NATURALLY love without "œtrying to love". But this can ONLY be had if we are fixed upon Christ crucified FOR US. And this can only be had if shepherds placard Christ crucified constantly to you for you.

Yours truly,

Larry

That is awesome Larry. You speak my language or something. I have to copy this down. The Lord has blessed you with insight and the way of explaining it. God bless you.