Genuine help for those enslaved to sexual immorality and self gratification

wretchedworm · #1 (**permalink**) 12-31-2007, 02:12 AM

www.settingcaptivesfree.com

For anyone who's been fighting these problems and have not had deliverance, there is hope for lasting change. Don't give up!

Soli Deo Gloria.

Pergamum · #2 (**permalink**) 12-31-2007, 07:06 AM

Internet filters are very wise.

BlackCalvinist · #3 (**permalink**) 12-31-2007, 09:42 PM

so how exactly does, for example, the purity course work ?

moral necessity · #4 (**permalink**) 01-01-2008, 11:35 AM

I want the 30 day course to entire sanctification! Where can I find that one?

After 20+ years of grappling with this sin and 1,000 others, I've found that deliverance is the work of God, and not of man. We must give up...that is give up on ourselves and on our horses and chariots and turn entirely to God. There is hope in Him and in Him only! His love will constrain us, or we won't be constrained. Man-made constraints are false and delusive, and are like painting POR15 over rust on a car. The cancer is still inside, and will spread to other areas, and eventually the original area as well. Romans 7 is the best it gets here! But, thank God for Romans 8!

If anyone struggling with similar sins would like to hear of God's testimony in me regarding this, feel free to message me.

Blessings!

Stephen · #5 (**permalink**) 01-01-2008, 12:17 PM

Thank you, brother for that testimony of God's grace. It is so refreshing to hear. So much of the deliverance from these kinds of sins are based on Rick Warren's "recovery" programs or other "Christian" 12-step programs. It leads to absolute frustration and many seem to always be dependent on the steps to recovery. Thank you fellow struggler for the reminder that sanctification is never complete until we are glorified.

Daniel Ritchie · #6 (**permalink**) 01-01-2008, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pergamum

Internet filters are very wise.

Are there internet filters that block out pornography and other rubbish on the net which you could install to your computer?

Davidius · #7 (**permalink**) 01-01-2008, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Ritchie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pergamum

Internet filters are very wise.

Are there internet filters that block out pornography and other rubbish on the net which you could install to your computer?

Covenant Eyes

Stephen · #8 (**permalink**) 01-01-2008, 02:07 PM

Yes, Daniel there are a number of filters out there. The only problem is that no filter will prevent a person from pornographic sites. Filters are great for blocking out incoming material. Many people have filters for their children, but parents should never leave children to play on the computer for extended periods of time. There are great Christian resources, like Harvest Ministry, out of Philadelphia, which provide brothers who will keep you acconatable. While I agree with Charles on the issue of besetting or addictive sins, I do believe that these sins are committed in secret. Men need to have other men to whom they are accountable in order to overcome the sin.

Stephen · #9 (**permalink**) 01-01-2008, 02:11 PM

Thanks, Davidus. I could not remember but Covenant Eyes is one of the best. You are assigned to another brother who will moniter what you access. He will contact you if you access something that is morally objectionable.

Poimen · #10 (**permalink**) 01-01-2008, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Ritchie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pergamum

Internet filters are very wise.

Are there internet filters that block out pornography and other rubbish on the net which you could install to your computer?

This one works very well: K9 Web Protection Find a trusted friend to type in the password when you are ready to install.

Yes no program will deliver us from sin, but it will provide the protection from being led into sin.

Zenas · #11 (**permalink**) 01-01-2008, 04:05 PM

The thing about Covenant eyes is that it makes no attempt to filter what you look at. The whole point of the program is to insert into the internet that which is usually absent, accountability. You can look at whatever you want, all the **** you can find. The thing is, whoever are your partners will be told exactly what you're looking at. I propose a pastor or elder.

If you do use it, make your partner someone who will hold you accountable; not just someone who will say in passing "Yea, saw that you messed up, but it's ok.", but rather someone who will take you out to dinner and ask you specifics about it, why you did it, what you looked at, how the struggle is going, etc., and do it every single time you do it.

moral necessity · #12 (**permalink**) 01-01-2008, 04:32 PM

You're welcome Stephen! Please remind me also, as I need it.

For me, the accountability route never worked. All it did was motivate me to stifle my desires out of not wanting to be embarassed or confronted. True, it kept me from externalizing the internal sinful desires, but those desires still churned and found their way out in other ways regardless. It also baited me further into legalism, where I didn't feel right with God because I sinned in a certain way 5 days out of the week, and I knew that somebody else knew about it. It was a circular ratrace.

The only thing that made any difference to me was experiencing its reprocussions in near totality and learning the depths of God's grace, in that He loves me anyway regardless. There's something about the free grace of God, and knowing/understanding/experiencing that you are accepted in the beloved no matter what you do, that grabs your affections and places them on the pleasures of Christ over and above the pleasures of sin.

The bottom line is this: the reason why we choose to sin is that we don't love Jesus enough! And, no amount of legalisms or accountability or filters will change that, as you well know. Only the grace of God will. And, He will win our hearts.

That's my opinion at this time, and I certainly honor those who differ.

Blessings!

puritan lad · #13 (**permalink**) 01-01-2008, 07:28 PM

It may be expensive (around $100), but I would highly recommend Spector Pro Software. It not only has great parental controls for blocking certain sites, it records everything, and I mean everything that happens on your computer.

CanuckPuritan24 · #14 (**permalink**) 01-02-2008, 08:54 AM

X3 watch makes available a fairly decent free accountability service. The software can be downloaded at:

XXXCHURCH.COM

Calvibaptist · #15 (**permalink**) 01-02-2008, 01:01 PM

I use OpenDNS. It is not a filtering software, but you change your DNS to their number and it filters for you. It is free.

And, yes, victory (if there is such a thing in this lifetime) over this type of temptation is not something that can be achieved through a 10-step program alone. But that does not discount taking those steps that are biblical and/or practical to avoid the temptation. Filtering content is a good practical step.

It is primarily an inward battle that God must win for us or we lose it all. But so is every aspect of sanctification. That is why spiritual disciplines are important. Not because they are the answer, but because they put us in a position to listen to The Answer, who is Christ.

raekwon · #16 (**permalink**) 01-02-2008, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calvibaptist

I use OpenDNS. It is not a filtering software, but you change your DNS to their number and it filters for you. It is free.

And, yes, victory (if there is such a thing in this lifetime) over this type of temptation is not something that can be achieved through a 10-step program alone. But that does not discount taking those steps that are biblical and/or practical to avoid the temptation. Filtering content is a good practical step.

It is primarily an inward battle that God must win for us or we lose it all. But so is every aspect of sanctification. That is why spiritual disciplines are important. Not because they are the answer, but because they put us in a position to listen to The Answer, who is Christ.

(on both the OpenDNS recommendation and the truth about victory over sin)

moral necessity · #17 (**permalink**) 01-02-2008, 01:57 PM

I agree with Doug as well. We are to "make no provision for the flesh with regard to its lusts", and we are to work towards mortifying the lusts within us, along with placing ourselves in the path of grace as best we know how to. Also, if it is our prayer for God to "lead us not into temptation," then, certainly we ought to not lead ourselves into it. Thanks for your input regarding these truths.

Blessings!

ReformationArt · #18 (**permalink**) 01-02-2008, 02:40 PM

We use BeSafe. It is a very good filter, although no filters are perfect. It offers the same kind of service included as Covenant Eyes (sending a report of sites visited).

Bsafe Online #1 Family Filter

Although women are subject to these same temptations, the majority of **** addicts are men. My wife is the password keeper for our home computers, and my laptop.

For those in the DFW metroplex, there will be a conference on Sexual Addiction in the Church, held before the winter stated meeting of the Presbytery of the Southwest (OPC) at Covenant Presbyterian Church of Fort Worth (10750 Westpoint Blvd. Fort Worth, TX 76108). Here are the sessions:

January 17 - 7:00 PM - The Spiritual Emptiness Behind Sexual Addiction
January 17 - 8:30 PM - Sexual Addiction and the Law
January 18 - 9:00 PM - Sexual Addiction and Confession.

It will be January 17-18

ReformationArt · #19 (**permalink**) 01-02-2008, 02:44 PM

I preached a sermon on Job 31:1-12 titled "The Ravaged Mind" where I address the destructiveness of pornography. You can listen to it by clicking the following link:

http://www.ccopc.org/sermons/job/06-...Mind-Moody.MP3

wretchedworm · #20 (**permalink**) 01-02-2008, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moral necessity

You're welcome Stephen! Please remind me also, as I need it.

For me, the accountability route never worked. All it did was motivate me to stifle my desires out of not wanting to be embarassed or confronted. True, it kept me from externalizing the internal sinful desires, but those desires still churned and found their way out in other ways regardless. It also baited me further into legalism, where I didn't feel right with God because I sinned in a certain way 5 days out of the week, and I knew that somebody else knew about it. It was a circular ratrace.

The only thing that made any difference to me was experiencing its reprocussions in near totality and learning the depths of God's grace, in that He loves me anyway regardless. There's something about the free grace of God, and knowing/understanding/experiencing that you are accepted in the beloved no matter what you do, that grabs your affections and places them on the pleasures of Christ over and above the pleasures of sin.

The bottom line is this: the reason why we choose to sin is that we don't love Jesus enough! And, no amount of legalisms or accountability or filters will change that, as you well know. Only the grace of God will. And, He will win our hearts.

That's my opinion at this time, and I certainly honor those who differ.

Blessings!

The accountability factor is crucial if we are ever to be freed so i disagree when you say it doesn't work. Perhaps you may want to relook at what accountability actually entails or means. When there is light, there can be no darkness.

There is some truth in what you said about legalism but it is also a very dangerous thing when taken in the wrong way.
The tension between working out our salvation and God's grace is always there. (This is addressed in the course)
But end of the day, He's truth still stands, God cannot be mocked, and if we continue to indulge in sexual impurity then the Word says that we have not truly understood God's grace, no matter how we want to justify it so let us not decieve ourselves.

Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. - Gal 5:19-21

This is one of the important issues which the Way of purity course will address thru biblical counselling.

Blue Tick · #21 (**permalink**) 01-03-2008, 10:21 AM

Quote:

You're welcome Stephen! Please remind me also, as I need it.

For me, the accountability route never worked. All it did was motivate me to stifle my desires out of not wanting to be embarassed or confronted. True, it kept me from externalizing the internal sinful desires, but those desires still churned and found their way out in other ways regardless. It also baited me further into legalism, where I didn't feel right with God because I sinned in a certain way 5 days out of the week, and I knew that somebody else knew about it. It was a circular ratrace.

The only thing that made any difference to me was experiencing its reprocussions in near totality and learning the depths of God's grace, in that He loves me anyway regardless. There's something about the free grace of God, and knowing/understanding/experiencing that you are accepted in the beloved no matter what you do, that grabs your affections and places them on the pleasures of Christ over and above the pleasures of sin.

The bottom line is this: the reason why we choose to sin is that we don't love Jesus enough! And, no amount of legalisms or accountability or filters will change that, as you well know. Only the grace of God will. And, He will win our hearts.

That's my opinion at this time, and I certainly honor those who differ.

Blessings!

Well Said!

Blue Tick · #22 (**permalink**) 01-03-2008, 10:35 AM

Quote:

The accountability factor is crucial if we are ever to be freed so i disagree when you say it doesn't work. Perhaps you may want to relook at what accountability actually entails or means. When there is light, there can be no darkness.

Hello Wretched,

Can you define accountability and how it is crucial to be freed from sin?

Isn't there a temptation in trusting in our "accountability partner" and not trusting in the grace of God to sanctify us. If we focus on having accountability partners it never deals with the internal struggle of sin. All it does is paint a false sense of piety.

Quote:

The tension between working out our salvation and God's grace is always there.

12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

moral necessity · #23 (**permalink**) 01-03-2008, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wretchedworm

The accountability factor is crucial if we are ever to be freed

Dear Brother,

Forgive me if I disagree. I wish God's blessings upon you and upon all who desire freedom from sin.

wretchedworm · #24 (**permalink**) 01-03-2008, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Tick

Quote:

The accountability factor is crucial if we are ever to be freed so i disagree when you say it doesn't work. Perhaps you may want to relook at what accountability actually entails or means. When there is light, there can be no darkness.

Hello Wretched,

Can you define accountability and how it is crucial to be freed from sin?

Isn't there a temptation in trusting in our "accountability partner" and not trusting in the grace of God to sanctify us. If we focus on having accountability partners it never deals with the internal struggle of sin. All it does is paint a false sense of piety.

Quote:

The tension between working out our salvation and God's grace is always there.

12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

This will be touched on in day 3 of the course.
I think who you're accountable to is very important, it also involves the confession of sin.

Have you ever noticed that most fungi grow best in the dark? If you were to turn the light on the fungus, it would be sapped of strength and whither and eventually die. Sexual impurity is the same; it, too, thrives in the darkness. Typically, pornography is done in secret, where nobody knows, and as long as the sinning remains in the dark, it will no doubt continue. (- excerpt from day 3 of Way of Purity course)

Just letting a 'buddy' know of what sites that are surfed will not be enough, as over time theres a tendency we will fall complacent and just expect them to give a pat to the back and say 'it's ok i understand your struggle'. Bondage to sexual impurity brings deception with it, and some of us have been deceptive for years. If we want to lose the slavery to sin, we start with honesty, even if it is humbling.

I would suggest confessing to the pastor and then to the church and if we're married, our wives also. This is a frightening thing for some but if one is serious about overcoming sexual impurity then sin must be dragged out into the open for it to die. We're often trapped in sin because one of the crucial reasons is we think no one will ever know and that encourages sin.

Of course, the accountability factor is not the only factor in our fight against sexual immorality and self gratification, but it is a crucial factor. The course will also address the other factors that is needed in our fight.

Well I cannot convince anyone that the accountability factor is crucial with my own reasons, and I cannot express in words the sense of liberation one will feel if they have sought to be truly accountable to others and confessed their sins.
I can only let the Word speak for itself and hope people will recognize this truth of scripture.

_____

5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives" (1 John 1:5-10)

__________

"For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) and find out what pleases the Lord. Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. But everything exposed by the light becomes visible, for it is light that makes everything visible" (Eph. 5:8 - 14).

_________

You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and self-controlled. 7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. (1 Thessalonians 5:5-8)

_________

Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted. (Galatians 6:1, a practical truth for the accountability partner)

_________

But encourage one another, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. (Hebrews 3:13)

_________

9 Two are better than one, because they have a good return for their work (Ecclesiastes 4:9)

_________

"If one falls down, his friend can help him up. But pity the man who falls and has no one to help him up!" (Ecclesiastes 4:10)

_________

Also, if two lie down together, they will keep warm. But how can one keep warm alone? (Ecclesiastes 4:11)

________

Though one may be overpowered, two can defend themselves. A cord of three strands is not quickly broken. (Ecclesiastes 4:12)

A person standing alone can be attacked and defeated, but two can stand back-to-back and conquer. Three are even better, for a triple-braided cord is not easily broken."* -Ecclesiastes 4:12, NLT

_________

Joab saw that there were battle lines in front of him and behind him; so he selected some of the best troops in Israel and deployed them against the Arameans. 10 He put the rest of the men under the command of Abishai his brother and deployed them against the Ammonites. 11 Joab said, 'If the Arameans are too strong for me, then you are to come to my rescue; but if the Ammonites are too strong for you, then I will come to rescue you.' 12 Be strong and let us fight bravely for our people and the cities of our God. The LORD will do what is good in his sight." (2 Sam. 10:9-12)

_________

Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. 25 Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another - and all the more as you see the Day approaching." (Heb. 10:23-25)

_________

As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. (Prov. 27:17)

_________

3--When I kept silent, my bones wasted away through my groaning all day long. 4--For day and night your hand was heavy upon me; my strength was sapped as in the heat of summer. (Psalm 32:3-4)

Then I acknowledged my sin to you and did not cover up my iniquity. I said, 'I will confess my transgressions to the Lord--and you forgave the guilt of my sin.' 6--Therefore let everyone who is godly pray to you while you may be found; surely when the mighty waters rise, they will not reach him. You are my hiding place; you will protect me from trouble and surround me with songs of deliverance. (Psalm 32:3-7)

__________

He who conceals his sins does not prosper, but whoever confesses and renounces them finds mercy. (Proverbs 28:13)

__________

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God. (John 3:19-21)

__________

For whatever is hidden is meant to be disclosed, and whatever is concealed is meant to be brought out into the open. (Mark 4:22)

__________

These are just but few of what the Word teaches about accountability and confession. I sincerely hope that those who are truly broken in spirit about their sins and wish to be free, will enrol in the Way of Purity course.

For

The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise. (Psalm 51:17)

p.s The ministry is reformed and uses quite a lot of puritan materials

moral necessity · #25 (**permalink**) 01-03-2008, 10:30 PM

Brother Wretchedworm,

May I assure you that I side with your heart also in this matter, in all sincerity. I too hope that those who are truly broken in spirit about their sins, and wish to be free of them, will pursue after victory. And, if it be through this course you speak of, may God's blessings attend this too!

May I respectfully add that, in my opinion, the verses you quoted regarding confession and "not keeping silent about my sin," and "bringing out in the open", etc,...,all refer to doing so with God, and not man. Please understand, I am not at all against sharing my sins with others, to receive and to give edification and warning regarding such. And I'm not against having a scheduled meeting time with a brother or two, so that we can lift one another up and give them encouragement and exhortation with scripture and pray together for one another regarding the sins that we often fall into. And, I am certainly in favor of confessing my sins that I did against some person to that person whom I directly sinned against (though all sin is primarily against God). Those are good things. And if these help classes truly teach such, may all who attend be blessed! But, in my opinion, I think we ought to be very, very careful with whom we actually confess our sins, for, as you quoted, "you who are spiritual are to restore such a one," implying that they must be mature and well seasoned as believers. And, the Corinthians had very few to pick from, and often we do as well. Also, I think confession is to always be mutual when so done, and I think James 5:16 is very clear about that. It is not meant to be a one-way street, but is meant to be a joint-sharing and a joint-confession, for it is to be done "with one another," so that you can pray "for one another."

But, having been married for nearly 12 years, I can tell you from personal experience, as well as from the experience of others, that I personally would not counsel someone to confess these sorts of sexual sins to their wife, nor the church as a whole. Granted, some women are gifted to handle this, but, in my opinion, this has every advantage of being a stumbling block to many, if not most, of the wives out there. And, to the wives who know otherwise for themselves, I would say that, somewhere along the line, they must have had an extra helping or two of grace bestowed upon them in order to handle this in an appropriate and Christ-like manner. We men often have many more things of our own that we do not handle in an appropriate and Christ-like manner, so we are in no position from which we may frown on them for such. But, this area is a very personal affront to most, if not all, women. It is very difficult for a wife to know of, and to deal with the reality that, their husbands have been viewing porography all night long, instead of spending time with them. And, personally, I don't blame them for concluding such, for God felt similarly towards Israel, when she would run off with her lovers. I'm not saying that they never ought to share such with their wives, but, I personally would not advocate them as being one's accountability partner, nor one to whom they resort with such confessions. For, Scripture, as you well know, explicitly commands us to not put a stumbling block in front of others, and one may very well be doing this by leaning on them with a burden that they are not able to, nor given to, bear. I think that is why God provides us men with brothers, especially for this area of ministry. So, I think you would agree that this would not be wise to encourage someone to do, if it caused their wife to stumble, or to reply with personal anger, resentment, hatred, emotional distress, frustration, anxiety, etc... I do think that an outside, objective, married woman, with no vested interest in the matter or relationship, would do a great deal of service to such a man in sharing what his wife may be experiencing, or probably is experiencing, emotionally and relationally because of his struggles. A man needs to hear about what he is not properly wired to experience and feel. And, he needs to see the potential danger he is placing both his wife and his family in, and of what damage he is bound to cause, because of his sins.

For a similar reason, this is also why, in my opinion, I would not counsel someone to confess such things to the church as a whole, for there are surely many weak and tender brothers within the congregation who are not to hear of such things, until they are able to handle them. For, this sometimes gives a false strength to weaker brothers, and may actually entice and encourage them towards the very sin that's being confessed; and, if nothing else, it plants the seed of the idea of committing certain sins that perhaps they never thought of committing before, or perhaps never thought of committing in the same way that you did. And, think of the children that would hear and be influenced. I certainly would not expose my 10 and 4 year old to hear such confessions from people. I'm sure you'd agree, that some discretion is necessary.

Finally, thanks for the thoughts and encouragement towards the freedom that is available in Christ that you have reminded me of, and the passion you personally show for those ensnared! May God's blessings be upon you for taking the time to encourage others to seek help, and for your motivation towards the same!

Blessings!

**PuritanCovenanter** · #26 (**permalink**) 01-03-2008, 11:49 PM

We need to be honest and open with others.

Quote:

(Gal 6:1) Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

(Gal 6:2) Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

(Gal 6:3) For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.

(Gal 6:4) But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.

(Gal 6:5) For every man shall bear his own burden.

(Gal 6:6) Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.

(Gal 6:7) Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

(Gal 6:8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

(Gal 6:9) And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

We need spiritaul men around us to help us be restored and to help us walk in the light.

Quote:

(Jas 5:16) Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

I am editing my post because I do believe there is dangerous ground Mr. Wretchedworm may be treading upon. His statements concerning who to confess your sin to are too general. I do know some guys who have wonderful accountability partners that are men alone and some guys who use their wives in the fight but only confess to a very close friend. I do believe that Confessing to the Church may be interpreted as confessing to the Elders. But I am not sure that is how he is defining confession to the Church. I am not endorsing the course Mr. Wretchedworm is recommending because I don't know enough about it. But I do believe confession between very close brothers is vital and important to the Christian life. This is a serious sin and may need help from an Elder.

**PuritanCovenanter** · #27 (**permalink**) 01-04-2008, 12:55 AM

Looking more closely at this programs site, and the Church attached to it, the church appears to be a New Covenant Theology Church. (Welcome to Ohio Valley Church) I believe they deny the Covenant of Works. And it is probably Amyraldian.

Check this out... It is from their Purpose and Doctrinal Statement. (The Purpose and Doctrinal Statement is our full doctrine and purpose statement, complete with Scriptures and full explanations.)

Quote:

Election
6. We believe that God, in Christ, before the foundation of the world and for His own glory, did elect an innumerable number of mankind to eternal life as an act of His grace and an expression of His love; and that this election was in no way dependent upon His foresight of their faith, decision, works, or merit.

Am I missing something, or is there really an innumerable number?

Anyways, I commend them for trying to grow the body of Christ and bring it into maturity. They like Dr. Piper quite a bit.

wretchedworm · #28 (**permalink**) 01-04-2008, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moral necessity

Brother Wretchedworm,

May I assure you that I side with your heart also in this matter, in all sincerity. I too hope that those who are truly broken in spirit about their sins, and wish to be free of them, will pursue after victory. And, if it be through this course you speak of, may God's blessings attend this too!

May I respectfully add that, in my opinion, the verses you quoted regarding confession and "not keeping silent about my sin," and "bringing out in the open", etc,...,all refer to doing so with God, and not man. Please understand, I am not at all against sharing my sins with others, to receive and to give edification and warning regarding such. And I'm not against having a scheduled meeting time with a brother or two, so that we can lift one another up and give them encouragement and exhortation with scripture. And, I am certainly in favor of confessing my sins that I did against some person to that person whom I directly sinned against (though all sin is primarily against God). Those are good things. And if these help classes truly teach such, may all who attend be blessed! But, in my opinion, I think we ought to be very, very careful with whom we actually confess our sins, for, as you quoted, "you who are spiritual are to restore such a one," implying that they must be mature and well seasoned as believers. And, the Corinthians had very few to pick from, and often we do as well.

But, having been married for nearly 12 years, I can tell you from personal experience, as well as from the experience of others, that I personally would never counsel someone to confess sexual sins to my wife, nor the church as a whole. Granted, some women are gifted to handle this, but, in my opinion, this will be a stumbling block to probably 99% of the wives out there. And, to the wives who say different, I would respond by saying that, somewhere along the line, they must have had an extra helping or two of grace bestowed upon them in order to handle this in an appropriate and Christ-like manner! It is a very personal affront to most women, to know that their husbands have been viewing porography all night long, instead of spending time with them. And, personally, I don't blame them for concluding such, for God felt similarly towards Israel, when she would run off with her lovers. Also, Scripture, as you well know, explicitly commands us to not put a stumbling block in front of others. So, I think you would agree that this would not be wise to do, if it caused someone's wife to stumble, or to reply with personal anger, resentment, hatred, emotional distress, frustration, anxiety, etc...

This is also why, in my opinion, I would never confess such things to the church as a whole, for there are surely many weak and tender brothers within the congregation who are not to hear of such things, until they are able to handle them. For, this sometimes gives a false strength to weaker brothers, and may actually entice and encourage them towards the very sin that's being confessed; and, if nothing else, it plants the seed of the idea of committing certain sins that perhaps they never thought of committing before, or perhaps never thought of committing in the same way that you did. And, think of the children that would hear and be influenced. I certainly would not expose my 10 and 4 year old to hear such confessions from people. I'm sure you'd agree, that some discretion is necessary.

Finally, thanks for thoughts and encouragement towards the freedom that is available in Christ that you have reminded me of, and the passion you personally show for those ensnared! May God's blessings be upon you for taking the time to encourage others to seek help, and for your motivation towards the same!

Blessings!

Brother Moral Necessity,

You have spoken wisely regarding the wisdom of choosing whom you confess your sins to, the timing of it and how much you confess.
These are also addressed in the Way of Purity course and it will help those who are in bondage decide whom, when and how much you confess and be accountable to.
You might be encouraged too to know that there is a course designed for wives of members who are in bondaged also to help them understand how to cope and help their spouses.

I am not married but I would believe and suggest that if there is anyone that a married person who is in bondage with such sins should confess and be accountable to, it should be his wife. To deceive and hide the matter would be sinning against her even more in my opinion. Our spouse, if we are married, should eventually become our number one accountability partner.

I cannot convince you if you feel that the scriptures do not speak about accountability in this way, only the Holy Spirit does. But it is my sincere hope that people who are truly broken in spirit will check out this course.

And i hope no one will be so caught up in our theology to not even give this ministry a chance. So many times we lose sight of what is important and toss the baby out of the bathtub altogether.
When a person is truly desperate, he/she only seeks for genuine help and will not nitpick on secondary issues.

If some here have 2nd thoughts in this course and the theology represented, I encourage you to go thru the course yourself and see if this course is truly biblical. I did not know too that this course was reformed in persuasion initially till i found out later in the course, and it has convicted me of the truth of God's words.

May the Lord bless those who truly seek Him.

**PuritanCovenanter** · #29 (**permalink**) 01-04-2008, 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wretchedworm

I am not married but I would believe and suggest that if there is anyone that a married person who is in bondage with such sins should confess and be accountable to, it should be his wife. To deceive and hide the matter would be sinning against her even more in my opinion. Our spouse, if we are married, should eventually become our number one accountability partner.

You are not married. When you are you will be enlightened.

I have been in the church for over 25 years and have seen a lot. I think Mr. Moral Necessity is correct in this area. I know the wisdom he is sharing with you. I have seen marriages ruined because wives are not men and don't understand things like a man does. Plus a woman's desire is to run the house and if the head of the house has major faults then submission to a broken leader is questionable to most women. There are a lot of different problems associated with men confessing to wives or women in general.

We are fallen creatures who have been redeemed. We are new creatures with ties to indwelling sin and we will not be released until this corruption puts on incorruption. Therefore fight the good fight.

Be Encouraged,
Randy

moral necessity · #30 (**permalink**) 01-04-2008, 09:41 AM

Thank you for your words, brother Wretchedword. They have been received in the sincerity and gentleness that you intended. Blessings to you!

Blue Tick · #31 (**permalink**) 01-04-2008, 09:44 AM

Mr.Wretched,

Quote:

I am not married but I would believe and suggest that if there is anyone that a married person who is in bondage with such sins should confess and be accountable to, it should be his wife. To deceive and hide the matter would be sinning against her even more in my opinion. Our spouse, if we are married, should eventually become our number one accountability partner.

I would gently suggest that this is not a healthy way to build a strong marriage.

Blueridge Believer · #32 (**permalink**) 01-04-2008, 09:52 AM

John Macarthur has had a series this week on sexual purity that is really worth the time to listen, especailly the 1rst message.

Grace to You (John MacArthur) - Broadcast Archives

Amazing Grace · #33 (**permalink**) 01-04-2008, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PuritanCovenanter

Election
6. We believe that God, in Christ, before the foundation of the world and for His own glory, did elect an innumerable number of mankind to eternal life as an act of His grace and an expression of His love; and that this election was in no way dependent upon His foresight of their faith, decision, works, or merit.

Am I missing something, or is there really an innumerable number?

Anyways, I commend them for trying to grow the body of Christ and bring it into maturity. They like Dr. Piper quite a bit.

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

**PuritanCovenanter** · #34 (**permalink**) 01-04-2008, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amazing Grace

Quote:

Originally Posted by PuritanCovenanter

Election
6. We believe that God, in Christ, before the foundation of the world and for His own glory, did elect an innumerable number of mankind to eternal life as an act of His grace and an expression of His love; and that this election was in no way dependent upon His foresight of their faith, decision, works, or merit.

Am I missing something, or is there really an innumerable number?

Anyways, I commend them for trying to grow the body of Christ and bring it into maturity. They like Dr. Piper quite a bit.

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Innumberable number and a great multitude which no man could number are two different things.

Sorry for getting off topic.

*** MODERATOR NOTE***

BTW, Meg was wondering if this thread should be moved to the Men's tool shed. I share the same concerns with her. But this is an important issue that does plague many men and a few women. I have decided to leave this in Spiritual Warfare for right now because it can be informative and it has not become graphic or lude in my opinion.

There are differences in how men and women react to things of this nature. Men and women are wired differently and the better we understand this the better we will be at dealing with this kind of situation. What tempts one person may not be a temptation for another person. We are all tempted in like manner but over specifically different issues. And part of these differences have to do with our distinction of whether we are male or female. We are each formed with different inclinations. Therefore our sensualistic temptations vary a bit also. This is a maturity issue. And I truly believe in a general sense that the older maturer woman should teach the younger women in these kinds of issues.

Quote:

(Tit 2:3) The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

(Tit 2:4) That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,

(Tit 2:5) To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

I also believe that the older men should teach the younger men also. I believe Titus 2 bares this out also.

Also let me remind everyone what St. Paul wrote to us.

Quote:

(Eph 5:1) Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;

(Eph 5:2) And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

(Eph 5:3) But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

(Eph 5:4) Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

(Eph 5:5) For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

(Eph 5:6) Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

(Eph 5:7) Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

moral necessity · #35 (**permalink**) 01-04-2008, 12:23 PM

Excellent response Randy!

SRoper · #36 (**permalink**) 01-04-2008, 06:46 PM

I'm not married, but I'm surprised that some seem to be saying that we should hide things from our wives.

wretchedworm · #37 (**permalink**) 01-04-2008, 07:16 PM

I can understand the concerns that some of you have raised regarding accountability to a wife. At first, I thought this was a minority, but then more started to feel the same way.

In all honesty, after all the replies, you guys have shattered and destroyed my concept of marriage. It makes me wonder why do we even get married in the first place if there are no accountability factor involved. Isn't the wife and husband supposed to love each other as Christ loved the church? Marriage is a physical and spiritual representation on earth of the union that we have with God. Isn't the spouse the person we can share all our troubles to? We don't hid anything from God in our relationship, so isn't hidding something from a spouse contrary to that. To hid what God has gloriously did to redeem those who were once in bondage from even the person who after God, is the one who we should be closest too, makes me feel like the other half is just like any other ordinary person.

I can understand that it may not be a wise thing to confess immediately but in the long run shouldn't that be the goal if one has truly been freed and yearns to seek forgiveness from a spouse? To hid the matter just because we think that it can 'better serve and maintain' a marriage this way seems to me a selfish reason. If there is something that is hidden in a marriage, isn't that a weak marriage instead, being fearful all your life that your past would be exposed? If i was married, I would rather be the one telling my spouse than for my spouse to find out herself of my past one day accidentally, if that happened.

The single biggest truth that the Way of Purity course has taught is that the motive we seek to be free is to GLORIFY GOD. If one has truly been set free and yet cannot even tell that to a spouse, isn't that denying God's Glory? Are we so afraid of what man may think rather than declaring God's glory?
It makes me sad to think that I should not be telling my future wife if i ever do get married, of all the glories that God has done in my life.

**PuritanCovenanter** · #38 (**permalink**) 01-04-2008, 08:10 PM

I am not ignoring you guys. But I want to see what the others might contribute who are married and who might be Elders in their Churches. I will say this. Not all wives are mature enough to handle this burden. They are helpmeets but that doesn't mean God will utilize them in every area of a mans life. And that goes visa versa also.

BTW, I use to be a hopeless Romantic also. There is the picture you paint in your mind of marriage as it should be and then there is the true picture of marriage this side of heaven. Two sinners becoming one.

ReformationArt · #39 (**permalink**) 01-04-2008, 10:42 PM

Some very dangerous and poor advice is being given in this thread. Husbands are joined together in covenant with their wife so that the two become one flesh, which is a picture of Christ and the church. Pornography is adultery.

Matthew 5:27-28 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Sexual sin of one spouse is the business of the other spouse. Sexual sin of one spouse is sin against God and a violation of the covenant bond between husband and wife.

To advise a Christian who has sinned against someone to not confess their sin and seek forgiveness from those they have sinned against contradicts Scripture.

Advising men to not confess their sin to women based upon gender is shameful. That is much like parents I've met who refuse to apologize to their children and seek their forgiveness for sinning against them.

Now it is normally the case that a couple struggling with these sins needs to seek outside counsel and help, normally from their pastor or a member of the session. However, they must work through the sin together to have true reconciliation for the glory of Christ, who has reconciled us to the Father through his active and passive obedience (Romans 5:11). It is because of Christ's work, we can and must do the hard work of waging war against sin, seeking forgiveness for those whom we sin against, and seeking to forgive those who sin against us. It is difficult, and often messy, and sometimes one or both parties isn't willing. However, as Christians we have no other option!

wretchedworm · #40 (**permalink**) 01-05-2008, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReformationArt

Some very dangerous and poor advice is being given in this thread. Husbands are joined together in covenant with their wife so that the two become one flesh, which is a picture of Christ and the church. Pornography is adultery.

Matthew 5:27-28 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Sexual sin of one spouse is the business of the other spouse. Sexual sin of one spouse is sin against God and a violation of the covenant bond between husband and wife.

To advise a Christian who has sinned against someone to not confess their sin and seek forgiveness from those they have sinned against contradicts Scripture.

Advising men to not confess their sin to women based upon gender is shameful. That is much like parents I've met who refuse to apologize to their children and seek their forgiveness for sinning against them.

Now it is normally the case that a couple struggling with these sins needs to seek outside counsel and help, normally from their pastor or a member of the session. However, they must work through the sin together to have true reconciliation for the glory of Christ, who has reconciled us to the Father through his active and passive obedience (Romans 5:11). It is because of Christ's work, we can and must do the hard work of waging war against sin, seeking forgiveness for those whom we sin against, and seeking to forgive those who sin against us. It is difficult, and often messy, and sometimes one or both parties isn't willing. However, as Christians we have no other option!

Thank you so much.
I really needed to hear that.
For a moment there my faith was almost stumbled.