In bringing up the Luther anecdote, which is often done, let's keep in mind that it is just an anecdote and not scripture and not something we would want to build a doctrine around. Luther's recording of what happened is pretty subjective.

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Bob Vigneault (Bawb Vēēn-yo)
I just know there's got to be a pony in here somewhere!

The Heartbeat of Heaven (blog) MySpace (Music), MySpace (Personal)
Member of Christ Presbyterian Church, Janesville, WI OPC www.christ-opc.org

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Bawb:

I only used Luther because you used him first. Believe me, I agree little with Luther on a lot of things.

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Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

The great comfort to me is greater is the on in us then the one out there

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Lukester
Seminary Student
Pilgrim OPC
Bangor, ME

Romans 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,for those who are called according to his purpose.

I too believe in Demons, Hitler is a good example, he WAS insane, but there was more than that, by his own hand he wrote of an experience in The Hapsburg Museum, he was obsessed with the Spear of Longinus (the spear that according to legend pierced the side of Christ) one day under the influence of mescaline he stared at the thing for hours. By his hand he wrote of a creature of shadow that emerged from the spear and asked Adolph to give over his will to a great power that would lift him to glory. It had only been a short while before he lived in flop-houses. After this experience things began to happen very fast, a man gave himself to a shadow whispering promises, soon after tis poor painter plunges earth into bloodshed and barbarism. Eichman once said "There was nothing special about Hitler." Indeed! There was not. Something moved him, and drove him, and destroyed him.

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~etexas~

Etexas: Give me some citations for this stuff. Sounds interesting. Note that the book on the spear of destiny I believe is fiction.

None that I know of uselly you will see charismatics claim there possesed or have some sort of "generational curse."

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Aaron
Independent Baptist
Holland MI
Blog: earthdwell22.blogspot.com

While living in Thailand, I asked a Thai Buddhist about the origin of the peculiar corners on the roofs, the familiar tail-like structures. She told me, "When the Lord Buddah was dying, he was visited by the divine serpent who had given him his religion. He expressed gratitude to the divine serpent for all the help he had given, for his great success. He asked the serpent what he could do to express his gratitude. The serpent responded with 'Put the image of my tail on every housetop,' which is what Buddah did."

I have personally seen multiple cases of demonization, some of these in the states. SOne doesn't need to be a charismatic to recognize this. With the ascendency of New Age phenomena it is becoming common in the mainstream of American society. It's only the evangelicals and Reformed who deny these things; secular American society is increasingly recognizing these phenomena. Certainly there are charismatic excesses but that doesn't negate the scriptural worldview which includes demons or the experience of those who deal with them in a rational manner. Clergy who relegate demonic phenomena to superstition cannot help their parishioners who struggle with the phenomena.

If anyone is interested in the subject, PM me. I'm willing to write more in that context than in open forum.

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Mary Vanderkooi
Kale Heywott Church (KHC)
Soddo, Ethiopia

I just realized that my post above is irrelevant. Buddah was a contemporary of the prophet Daniel.

For holyfool33, what level of evidence will you accept? For most people raised in western cultures, particularly pastor-sorts, the consequences of seeing and experiencing demonic phenomena first-hand are not pleasant. They are scary and one must change his/her worldview as a consequence. I've been through it, as has been my husband--we are both scientists, born and raised in the states. If you and others cannot define what evidence you will accept, then it is most likely that you will dismiss any accounts as "superstition". There is no point in dialog. For those in the pastorate who have parishioners struggling with unsolvable medical or emotional problems, then learning about demonic manifestations and learning how to deal with them, might enable you, in some cases, to be helpful. Let me assure you that once your attitude changes from, "It's all superstition." to "Tell me about it; let's consider if this might be demonic." both believers and unbelievers will come out of the woodwork, asking for counsel and seeking prayer.

The simplest question that I know to ask all here is:

Do you believe in the existence of the supernatural or not? And if there is a supernatural world of God, angels and demons, at what level do they interact with the world?


A follow-up question then would be: How much can be be aware of their involvement in the world? And then, what should we do about it?




My answers would be: The supernatural exists. is real, and active. But we can only know a bit of the total picture and so we operate according to our duties and engage in our warfare by prayer to God (never addressing demons who may or may not be bothering us at that particular instant) and not change the fulfillment of our duties.

I agree with your assessment completely. The only thing I would add is that we need to resist fear and superstition*. Fear and superstition is the demon's foothold. Meditating on God's sovereignty casts out fear and the Scriptures remove superstition.

(*When I refer to superstition, I am not saying that belief in demons is superstitious but that there is much superstition, from movies and books, that cloud our understanding of demonic activity.)

Gotta be careful of those Hitler stories floating around. On one level we're still fighting WW2 and there's a lot of propaganda out there.

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Tim Vaughan, 48 years old, member PCA church but currently attending EV Free church. San Luis Obispo County, California.

If you see people delivered from demons and coming to Christ, blessings on your approach. If not, you might consider using the approach that Paul used in the book of Acts. Maybe it'll work, maybe not. It's hard to believe that it would be sin to try. Neil Anderson's truth encounter approach is another possibility--not sinful to try and possibly helpful.

To clarify my own position: deliverance is not my major focus; it is not a major part of my ministry and I don't see a demon behind every bush. I've seen maybe 10 spectacular healings/deliverances at close range in 20 years, plus a bunch of minor annoying manifestations reversed. The major deliverances have, like in the gospels, been mostly neuro and psych problems. The effect with direct confrontation has been instantaneous. With the Neil Anderson/truth encounter approach, the effect has been slower--but that was only one case.

I'm well aware of probable-demonic manifestations in believers in the states who struggle with undiagnosable and/or untreatable medical or psychiatric illnesses. The unscriptural worldviews of their physicians and pastors precludes their getting effective help. On the other hand, there would be unpleasant consequences for these pastors and physicians were they to read and learn about demonic phenomena and attempt to deal with them. Examining the subject, unless one is forced into it, takes considerable courage. It's understandable to let situations remain.

I welcome PM on the subject, if anyone is inclined.

I wouldn't advocate very much of what Neil Anderson proposes. And as far as the Apostle Paul's methodology, it is sometimes hard to tell what is normative and what is merely descriptive of what Paul did as a BIG A Apostle.

You don't advocate Neil Anderson's approach, nor are you inclined to follow Paul's example. On what basis is this? It cannot be on the basis of scripture alone. To the best of my knowledge, the scriptures do not explicitly forbid either approach. Therefore, one's loyalty to the scriptures as the only rule of faith and practice should not preclude either approach. Also to the best of my knowledge the confessions, of lesser authority than the scriptures, are silent on the matter. Therefore loyalty to the confessions should not preclude either practice.

This leaves only cessationist presuppositions to preclude actively dealing with the netherworld supernatural--one's traditional Calvinistic culture, so to speak. Cessationism, like baptism and views of eschatology, is open to arguments either way between believers with absolute loyalty to the scripture. Since the entire scriptures, from Genesis to Revelation, reflect intermittent cessationism, the burden of proof is on those who insist on absolute cesstion in the current era. By intermittent cessationism, I mean that there were times and places when miracles were more common and times (like in Nazareth during Jesus' day) when they all but disappeared. Of the historical books (using that term broadly) I believe it is only Ruth and Esther that do not record miraculous events.

Am I missing something?