The PuritanBoard  

Go Back   The PuritanBoard > The Christian Walk > Spiritual Warfare

Spiritual Warfare Discussions related to the believer's struggles with the devil, the world and the flesh (1 John 2:15)
Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. (Eph. 6:11)

» Online Users: 89
21 members and 68 guests
calgal, calvinich, CatherineL, Jack K, K. R. Alyea, Kilted_Rob, MarieP, Nebrexan, Quickened, Raj, refbaptdude, satz, tabrooks, WAWICRUZ, Webservant, William Price
Most users ever online was 856, 07-06-2007 at 12:19 AM.
Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 04-01-2008, 04:27 PM
lukeh021471's Avatar
Puritanboard Freshman
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Bangor, ME
Posts: 29
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
demon possession

Are there any known legitimate cases of demon possession today?

__________________
Lukester
Seminary Student
Pilgrim OPC
Bangor, ME

Romans 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,for those who are called according to his purpose.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 04-01-2008, 04:36 PM
Stephen's Avatar
Puritanboard Senior
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 2,026
Thanks: 933
Thanked 272 Times in 180 Posts
There is no demon possession today. Jesus encountered this in his ministry and early in His ministry there was an increase in the activity as these demons opposed His kingdom. When you read the gospels the abilitiy to cast them out and the increase in the activity was a sign that the kingdom of God had come into the world. The ministry of the apostles was associated with laying the foundation of the church and imparting new revelation, which has ceased. Jesus came to overthrow the kingdom of satan and he has been defeated.

Is Russell Hamilton the teaching elder at your church in Bangor? If he is say hello to him and his wife for me. Him and I were in seminary together. We were both on the student council. He is a great man and has a wonderful accent (of course he is Scottish )
__________________
Stephen Welch
PCA Teaching Elder
Nova Scotia :cheers:
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 04-01-2008, 04:39 PM
Inactive User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Langhorne, PA
Posts: 246
Thanks: 8
Thanked 20 Times in 14 Posts
ummmm...Eph. 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
There is no demon possession today. Jesus encountered this in his ministry and early in His ministry there was an increase in the activity as these demons opposed His kingdom. When you read the gospels the abilitiy to cast them out and the increase in the activity was a sign that the kingdom of God had come into the world. The ministry of the apostles was associated with laying the foundation of the church and imparting new revelation, which has ceased. Jesus came to overthrow the kingdom of satan and he has been defeated.

Is Russell Hamilton the teaching elder at your church in Bangor? If he is say hello to him and his wife for me. Him and I were in seminary together. We were both on the student council. He is a great man and has a wonderful accent (of course he is Scottish
How then does one understand Ephesians 6.10-20?
__________________
John
Evangelical Free Church, no offices held
Langhorne, PA

[B]δός δοξαν τῳ θεῳ.[/B]
[B]ιδου ποιω τα εσχατα ως τα πρωτα.
הבל הבלים[/B]
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 04-01-2008, 04:42 PM
Inactive User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Posts: 4,956
Thanks: 906
Thanked 820 Times in 504 Posts
This has been discussed many times. You should look for old threads.
__________________
Davidius
Husband of Emily
Member of All Saints Anglican Church - Chapel Hill (AMiA / Anglican Church of North America)
Student: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, German and Classics
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 04-01-2008, 04:55 PM
Stephen's Avatar
Puritanboard Senior
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 2,026
Thanks: 933
Thanked 272 Times in 180 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sydnorphyn View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
There is no demon possession today. Jesus encountered this in his ministry and early in His ministry there was an increase in the activity as these demons opposed His kingdom. When you read the gospels the abilitiy to cast them out and the increase in the activity was a sign that the kingdom of God had come into the world. The ministry of the apostles was associated with laying the foundation of the church and imparting new revelation, which has ceased. Jesus came to overthrow the kingdom of satan and he has been defeated.

Is Russell Hamilton the teaching elder at your church in Bangor? If he is say hello to him and his wife for me. Him and I were in seminary together. We were both on the student council. He is a great man and has a wonderful accent (of course he is Scottish
How then does one understand Ephesians 6.10-20?
Ephesians 6 is written to the believer. Satan is not non-existent and can still fight the church. We are warned that we are to be aware of his tactics, but he has been bound. Peter says that he roams about seeking whom he may devour. He has limited power and can use many tricks to fight against the saints but he can no longer possess people as he did before his kingdom was overthrown. One of the things that Jesus did at the cross was to overthrow his kingdom. He is a defeated foe but is like a dog without teeth.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 04-01-2008, 10:18 PM
Pergamum's Avatar
The MacDaddy
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 10,394
Thanks: 2,680
Thanked 2,830 Times in 1,466 Posts
There's an awful lot of people over here that think they are possessed. Many even ask to be. I don't see any NT proof that this cannot be so...
__________________
Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 04-01-2008, 11:00 PM
hollandmin's Avatar
Puritanboard Freshman
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Warren, PA
Posts: 53
Thanks: 9
Thanked 11 Times in 5 Posts
I would have to disagree with you Stephen, demon possession still exsists. There is absolutely no NT scripture that in anyway could lead anyone to believe that it doesn't. In fact just he oppossite is true. Eph. 6 is quite clear in expressing that we must protect ourselves with the whole armor of God. You only have to watch the evening news to know that Satan and his demons are alive and well and wreaking havock around the world on a regular basis.

Blessings

Hollandmin
__________________
Rev. Toby Holland
Director of Evangelism
Wiltsie Community Church (CCCC)
LBC - 1689
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2008, 01:37 AM
Poimen's Avatar
Puritanboard Graduate
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Leduc, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 3,607
Thanks: 252
Thanked 952 Times in 496 Posts
I am beginning to be convinced that this is much like the issue of tongues. From a redemptive-historical perspective the vast majority of demon possession is referenced in the gospels as Jesus walked the earth. Except for a few references in Acts, there seems to be little or no mention of demon possession in the rest of the NT.

One NT commentator hints that demonic work and activity in the gospels is so prevalent because Satan was aware of Jesus coming and was doing everything possible to prevent or stall His victory. After the temptation in the wilderness, however, it is clear that there is only one possible victor and He has now begun and will complete the domination of all spiritual powers that are not subject to Him (Romans 16:20; Ephesians 1:21-23)

Luke 11:21-22 "When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are in peace. But when a stronger than he comes upon him and overcomes him, he takes from him all his armor in which he trusted, and divides his spoils"

This would seem to indicate, that, at the very least, we should expect that demon possession is now rare if not altogether impossible. And whatever we might make of Ephesians 6:10-20 no where does it indicate that demon possession is occurring but rather a battle with spiritual forces.

This is not to deny the influence and work of Satan in our age, nor even to absolutely deny that demon possession occurs. But it would seem that it is not the norm from the NT evidence.
__________________
Rev. Daniel Kok
Pastor of Grace Reformed Church (URCNA)
Leduc, Alberta CANADA

"What sort of pledge and how great is this of love towards us! Christ lives for us not for himself!"
John Calvin, Commentary on the Hebrews (7:25)
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Poimen For This Useful Post:
Stephen (04-02-2008)
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2008, 03:43 AM
Raj's Avatar
Raj Raj is offline now.
Puritanboard Sophomore
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: U.P., North India
Posts: 558
Blog Entries: 13
Thanks: 141
Thanked 93 Times in 39 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeh021471 View Post
Are there any known legitimate cases of demon possession today?


Yes, there are many cases.


My own mother got healed after only we offered a goat. When we were unbelievers.

aunt got healed after I went to ask her, what's in my hand, I carried a Bible with me.

A woman was possed as soon as started singing hymns in their homes got healed after about one month compeletly, the same woman got possesed on one Sunday and abused me in the public, which in normal, she would never do. Now whole family our member.
A boy got healed who was dumb for two days after my Pastor and me prayed in our village.

A woman danced in during the worship claimed to be Shiva, was healed now our member.

A woman I saw crawling on the ground like a serpent, almost attacked the senior Pastor, we were about 5, from our seminary, woman was healed after about one hour.
__________________
<Raj>
Church Planting/Community devolepment

"God doesn't give law to crush us. His intention for us is abundant life. A society is only forced to live under man's oppressive laws when it refuses to live under God's." V. Mangalwadi in India: the grand experiment ( Pippa Rann Books UK)

Blog: www.milapindia.blogspot.com

Last edited by Raj; 04-02-2008 at 08:25 AM.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2008, 08:11 AM
BobVigneault's Avatar
Semper ubi sub ubi
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Janesville, WI
Posts: 7,401
Thanks: 403
Thanked 2,943 Times in 1,076 Posts
There are two correlative mistakes that are made when the two sides discuss this issue. The 'demons are no longer active' side says that there is no demonic activity, only superstitions and group fears that get interpreted (mis-labeled) as demonic activity. This is why animistic cultures are more prone to stories of demons.

The other side, the 'demons are very present and very real' side says that demons are so powerful that some days God wins and some days Satan wins. Demons are not figments of the imagination but are very real and very powerful. If we don't pray then the angels can not be energized to hold back the demons. (Read Frank Perretti's books.)

Both sides are right and both sides commit important errors.

Demons are very real, BUT demons are not very powerful. The demons power is actually an illusion created by utilizing a person's or group's superstitions and fears.

A very real but weak demon can leverage a tremendous amount of fear by understanding a person's or group's expectations about demons. Anyone involved in the art of illusion understands this important principle. David Copperfield could go into a majority of world cultures and convince the folks that he is a god or controls the forces of nature. I've heard people in the states say 'he has a demon.' Mr. Copperfield is not demonic but he knows the power of a sleight, a feint, the expectations of the audience.

Quote:
An illusion is a distortion of the senses, revealing how the brain normally organizes and interprets sensory stimulation.
Is a demon smarter than Mr. Copperfield? Yes, very much more and they have lots and lots of experience in illusion, human expectation, leveraging fear, superstition and how a human brain is wired.

Can a demon possess a human today? Based on my experience I would have to say yes, however, the real power still depends on how much fear and superstition the 'host' is controlled by.

I may have used this example before:

First scenario - You are sitting in your well-lighted kitchen having a bowl of cereal. Water is dripping slowly into a pan in the sink, you aren't even aware of it. The weight of the water shifts in the pan and it falls over. You jump and look at the sink and realize immediately what happened. No problem.

Second scenario - Instead of sitting in your well-lit kitchen you moved to the dark den and you are watching a movie of a psycho-killer systematically going through a house killing people. It is an absolutely creepy movie. The pan in the sink is slowly filling with water. You are totally engrossed in the plot when you hear a crash in the kitchen. You are terrified, paralyzed with fear you are ripe for the picking at this point. You are convinced there is a killer or monster loose in the house. You can't breath, you move slowly in the direction of the kitchen or you just call the police.

What changed? A pan filled with water in the sink and fell. Perfectly harmless. What changed was the set up. Every magician knows that the success of a trick is not so much in the technique, but in the set up.

Demons are experts in the set up. In the end though, all they can really do is turn on a toy, or make a noise, even make a woman crawl like a serpent. There is really nothing to fear and in fact, fear is what they need to control you.

Obviously the non-believer in much more pliable and susceptible. A believer cannot be 'possessed', (and that word really should be defined when we use it. Possessed is too strong of a term.) The true danger from a demon is in our own fear and superstition. God's electing Love casts out all fear.

In short the demon is real but weak. The demon is an expert in illusion and understanding of human fear and will leverage it in the most dramatic ways.
__________________
Bob Vigneault C.O.L, L.E., G.E, Dr.O.P., O.U.T.
The Heartbeat of Heaven (blog)
Deacon/Christ Presbyterian Church, Janesville, WI OPC www.christ-opc.org

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to BobVigneault For This Useful Post:
KMK (04-03-2008), kvanlaan (06-13-2008), Raj (04-02-2008)
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2008, 08:30 AM
Raj's Avatar
Raj Raj is offline now.
Puritanboard Sophomore
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: U.P., North India
Posts: 558
Blog Entries: 13
Thanks: 141
Thanked 93 Times in 39 Posts
In short the demon is real but weak. You are right.

It would be wonderful, if any of you could visit us and see the whole culture here.
And I do know we serve a Living and Powerful God.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Raj For This Useful Post:
Anton Bruckner (04-02-2008), AVT (09-08-2008)
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2008, 08:44 AM
BobVigneault's Avatar
Semper ubi sub ubi
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Janesville, WI
Posts: 7,401
Thanks: 403
Thanked 2,943 Times in 1,076 Posts
And thank you Raj for sharing those experiences. I have a good friend who was a missionary for years in the Philippines. He wrote about the spirit world there.

We reformed shy away from experience that seems to differ from the words of Scripture. I am organizing a book that will record my own experiences and bring them to an explanation that remains consistent with Scripture and also give a view to Satan's schemes. I appreciate hearing of these experiences for that reason.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to BobVigneault For This Useful Post:
Stephen (04-02-2008)
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2008, 11:24 AM
Stephen's Avatar
Puritanboard Senior
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 2,026
Thanks: 933
Thanked 272 Times in 180 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by hollandmin View Post
I would have to disagree with you Stephen, demon possession still exsists. There is absolutely no NT scripture that in anyway could lead anyone to believe that it doesn't. In fact just he oppossite is true. Eph. 6 is quite clear in expressing that we must protect ourselves with the whole armor of God. You only have to watch the evening news to know that Satan and his demons are alive and well and wreaking havock around the world on a regular basis.

Blessings

Hollandmin
According to your argument Christians can be possessed, which is false. I never stated they did not exist or did not influenc people, but they do not have control, or else the cross work of Christ accomplished nothing. Thomas Brooks teaches in Precious Remedies Against Satan's Devices, that satan is a trickster and can certainly use schemes or tricks, but he has no power over us.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2008, 11:48 AM
BobVigneault's Avatar
Semper ubi sub ubi
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Janesville, WI
Posts: 7,401
Thanks: 403
Thanked 2,943 Times in 1,076 Posts
In all fairness Stephen, the original post, Pastor Holland's and yours never mentioned Christians being possessed; only whether or not possession still exists.

I think we all agree that possession is a loaded word. The movie industry really caused a great change in the way people think of demonic activity and possession. Satan was given way too much power by the movie industry in the 70's and it's very unfortunate. Our knowledge of the demonic should only come from scripture and experience must be made to agree with God's Word.

I prefer the word 'demonized' and by that I mean oppression, influence, nudging but not full control.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen View Post

According to your argument Christians can be possessed, which is false.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2008, 01:24 PM
Pergamum's Avatar
The MacDaddy
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 10,394
Thanks: 2,680
Thanked 2,830 Times in 1,466 Posts
Just how weak are demons and the supernatural?

A few anecdotal stories hear tell of local animistic leaders (witches if you will) cursing a few others, who then die. In one case, a swollen leg, in another case blurred vision, in in other case nausea and vomiting until death.


In another case a man wore his family's amulet that he said possessed a spirit inside. He reported that this spirit appeared more and more to him over time, at last urging him to kill himself. We prayed over him and took the amulet..at which point all such symptoms cease.

Did we implant a psychological suggestion only into his mind, or did something "spiritual" actually happen (i.e. did I perform my first "exorcism"?).


How much of this is psychosomatic and how much can the suernatural and spiritual powers work to eleicit spiritual responses?
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2008, 01:30 PM
Pergamum's Avatar
The MacDaddy
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 10,394
Thanks: 2,680
Thanked 2,830 Times in 1,466 Posts
Also, I find it interesting that 80% of Westerners I meet in Christian circles in the West poo-poo these issues, while 80% or maybe 90% in Asia do not poo-poo these ideas, but treat them as incontestable.

Either the East or the West is blinded...or both a little. We can look down our noses at the Superstitious Eastor we can do the oppisite and regard with pity our atheistic and skeptical West. But it is interesting how these beliefs differ globally.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2008, 01:34 PM
BobVigneault's Avatar
Semper ubi sub ubi
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Janesville, WI
Posts: 7,401
Thanks: 403
Thanked 2,943 Times in 1,076 Posts
The demons are very weak Perg, they have to borrow their 'power' from perception. Be careful of anything you receive through hear say, hear say travels with conclusions that were effected heavily by world view. You asked if the activity was demonic or psychosomatic? It is not an either or. The weak but clever demon needs to use every factor available. He will use mental defect, allergies, fatigue, ghost stories, superstitions, UFOs, chubacabra, Elvis, ANYHING to keep us in the game, to keep us superstitious and to keep us fearful. A fearful Christian is a Christian that nullifies the practical truth of God's absolute sovereignty and Christ's absolute authority over all things.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2008, 01:36 PM
BobVigneault's Avatar
Semper ubi sub ubi
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Janesville, WI
Posts: 7,401
Thanks: 403
Thanked 2,943 Times in 1,076 Posts
The difference between east and west again is our level of superstitions. An animistic culture allows the demon more exotic and overt tools to play with. In the west, we are much more sophisticated in our superstitions. We have spirit guides and ascended masters and aliens.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2008, 01:42 PM
ColdSilverMoon's Avatar
Puritanboard Senior
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 2,020
Thanks: 670
Thanked 837 Times in 393 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pergamum View Post

How much of this is psychosomatic and how much can the suernatural and spiritual powers work to eleicit spiritual responses?
Interestingly, the Bible seems to distinguish by "natural disease" and demons:

"And when He had called his twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease." Matthew 10:1
__________________
Mason
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian Church (PCA)
New York, NY

"Come now, and let us reason together," says the Lord, "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall be as wool." - Isaiah 1:18
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2008, 01:54 PM
Pergamum's Avatar
The MacDaddy
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 10,394
Thanks: 2,680
Thanked 2,830 Times in 1,466 Posts
The Bawb-erator:

I don't know if I buy that.

Of course, I need not fear. But what of those who are unsaved and are thus more subject to whatever demons can do? Your conclusions reinforce the atheists contentions that there is nothing that really happens supernatural today and all these items are only "in our heads". I.e. a delusion.

What of reports of demons speaking to the unsaved? Can we medicate them ALL for schizophrenia as a solution and why are some of these psychoses linked very closely with religion..because it is the "opium of the people."


It appears that the NT reported an active supernaturalism whereas enlightenment-influenced Christianity is heavily anti-supernatural and largely deistic. What active role DO God and the demons play today?
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #21 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2008, 02:06 PM
BobVigneault's Avatar
Semper ubi sub ubi
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Janesville, WI
Posts: 7,401
Thanks: 403
Thanked 2,943 Times in 1,076 Posts
The question must be asked this way Perg. Why does God allow demons to afflict humans, saved or unsaved? The reason is: to test and discipline.

For the unsaved, they are afflicted in order to bring them to a dependency on Christ and claim him as their Lord and Champion. Jesus said, "do not fear the one that can destroy the flesh but the one that can destroy the soul in Hell." Affliction by a demon is nothing compared to the torment of hell or to stand in God's presence without a mediator.

Job was afflicted with demonic oppression as Satan, an agent of God's wrath, tested and proved Jobs faith and also found the weakness in Job's self-righteousness. Satan was under God's authority the entire time.

A demon will try and keep the unbeliever in bondage to sin. God can also use a demon to challenge a besetting sin in the believer. Bottom line is, God is always sovereign and the demons are not, can not work outside his eternal plan.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to BobVigneault For This Useful Post:
AVT (09-08-2008), Pergamum (04-02-2008)
  #22 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2008, 07:59 AM
Kevin's Avatar
Puritanboard Postgraduate
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Moncton NB Canada
Posts: 4,564
Thanks: 1,572
Thanked 927 Times in 483 Posts
Thanks Bob (& everyone else). This has been very helpful.
__________________
Kevin Rogers
Sovereign Community Church, PCA
Moncton NB
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #23 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2008, 08:10 AM
A5pointer's Avatar
Puritanboard Sophomore
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Marmora NJ
Posts: 653
Thanks: 54
Thanked 85 Times in 61 Posts
how about a poll. Do they today or not?
__________________
Bruce
PCUSA
Ocean City NJ
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #24 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2008, 08:29 AM
Pergamum's Avatar
The MacDaddy
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 10,394
Thanks: 2,680
Thanked 2,830 Times in 1,466 Posts
After a certain fashion, doesn't the devil posess all those who do not believe?


I say yes, it still happens.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #25 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2008, 08:38 AM
BobVigneault's Avatar
Semper ubi sub ubi
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Janesville, WI
Posts: 7,401
Thanks: 403
Thanked 2,943 Times in 1,076 Posts
Again Perg, as Luther says, "Satan is God's ape."

Satan and sin have been ordained in a manner to bring the greatest display of God's glory in justice.

After all is said and done Satan possesses nothing. All he has is deception - that's it. Deception is his sole weapon and possession. All of the Lord's enemies have been put under His feet. The reprobate does not belong to Satan but Satan shares the fate of the reprobate.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
The Following User Says Thank You to BobVigneault For This Useful Post:
KMK (04-03-2008)
  #26 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2008, 12:15 PM
Pergamum's Avatar
The MacDaddy
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 10,394
Thanks: 2,680
Thanked 2,830 Times in 1,466 Posts
So Bawb, you are denying categorically that there is NO demon possession today?


You're preaching to the choir with the other stuff.

Of course, I know that God is sovereign.

Yet evil still occurs and death has not yet been subdued, so it is not implausible that demonic disturbances or possessions still occur.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #27 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2008, 12:22 PM
govols's Avatar
Puritanboard Junior
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,414
Thanks: 37
Thanked 50 Times in 36 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pergamum View Post
After a certain fashion, doesn't the devil posess all those who do not believe?


I say yes, it still happens.
No, he is not omnipresent.
__________________
For the sake of the Name,

John Hill
Faith Community - Woodstock, Ga
Adopted. Husband for 13 years. Father of 5 children.
http://faithcommunitychurch.org- My home church
Rocky Top, you'll always be, home sweet home to me.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to govols For This Useful Post:
Stephen (04-03-2008)
  #28 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2008, 12:31 PM
Pergamum's Avatar
The MacDaddy
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 10,394
Thanks: 2,680
Thanked 2,830 Times in 1,466 Posts
A General controls an army right?

In Matthew 25 it speaks of the devil and HIS angels doesn't it?

Of course he is no omnipresent, but he is the Dark Boss and so it can be said that if any of the devil's angels control a person they are posssesed by demons or a devil at least.

They are under the power of THE devil even though possessed by A devil, if you want stricter language.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #29 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2008, 12:57 PM
BobVigneault's Avatar
Semper ubi sub ubi
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Janesville, WI
Posts: 7,401
Thanks: 403
Thanked 2,943 Times in 1,076 Posts
Perg, define the word.

During one of a couple of 'deliverance' sessions at my house (I do not recommend deliverance ministries) I witnessed some pretty overt demonic activity. As things heated up it was obvious that a demon was jumping back and forth between my two teenaged daughters. When it would jump my daughter (I believe the demon) would turn and give me this very distinct leer, kind of a mocking grin, to let me know it had changed daughters. This happened several times.

At one point, the younger daughter cleaned out a bunch of spices in the kitchen, went to her bedroom where she placed them in a circle around her bed, she drew pentagrams on both of her hands and calmly explained she was trying to keep evil spirits away. This daughter had no knowledge of occultic practices and was very skeptical of such things. There was obviously a definite influence going on.

My daughter today has no memory at all of these things happening.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #30 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2008, 02:13 PM
Stephen's Avatar
Puritanboard Senior
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 2,026
Thanks: 933
Thanked 272 Times in 180 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobVigneault View Post
In all fairness Stephen, the original post, Pastor Holland's and yours never mentioned Christians being possessed; only whether or not possession still exists.

I think we all agree that possession is a loaded word. The movie industry really caused a great change in the way people think of demonic activity and possession. Satan was given way too much power by the movie industry in the 70's and it's very unfortunate. Our knowledge of the demonic should only come from scripture and experience must be made to agree with God's Word.

I prefer the word 'demonized' and by that I mean oppression, influence, nudging but not full control.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen View Post

According to your argument Christians can be possessed, which is false.

Yes, you are right the original question said nothing about Christian's being possessed. I was addressing this brother who said that no where in the Bible does it say that possession does not exist and then cites Ephesians 6. Ephesians 6 does not teach this, but it calls believers to put on the armour and stand against the evil one. I am basing my position on the Reformed understanding that the kingdom of satan was overthrown by the ministry of Christ. This is consistent with the teaching of many like Vos, Ridderbos, and others. I am not saying he has no power or infuence, because the Scriptures teach otherwise, but he has been limited and does not possess people as he did in the ministry of Christ.

Last edited by Stephen; 04-03-2008 at 02:45 PM.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #31 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2008, 02:42 PM
Blueridge Believer's Avatar
Puritanboard Professor
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: RADFORD VA.
Posts: 5,084
Thanks: 1,304
Thanked 1,583 Times in 688 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeh021471 View Post
Are there any known legitimate cases of demon possession today?



1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Demon possession today? Look no further than your TV set. Hagee, Hinn, Schuler, Oprah and a host of other demon possesed false teachers. Just because thier head is not spinning around and vomit is not spewing from thier mouth does not mean they are not indwelt of devils.
__________________
Psa 55:16 As for me, I will call upon God; and the LORD shall save me.
Psa 55:17 Evening, and morning, and at noon, will I pray, and cry aloud: and he shall hear my voice.
James Farley
Husband of Melissa and father of Ann.
Members of Redeemer Church ARP, Blacksburg Va.
http://www.redeemerblacksburg.org/
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #32 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2008, 02:53 PM
BobVigneault's Avatar
Semper ubi sub ubi
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Janesville, WI
Posts: 7,401
Thanks: 403
Thanked 2,943 Times in 1,076 Posts
Very good James, you've brought up again what has really confused this discussion and that is that the movies have changed the expectations and images associated with demons.

For most of history demons have been thought weak and under God's authority, defeated and in their death throes. Rosemary's Baby changed perceptions. Suddenly there was a demon who was more powerful than God and he could thwart God's plan. Then came The Exorcist and you had spinning heads, spinning beds and all matters of climatology in a bedroom. It was pretty dramatic and pretty frightening.

After that, interest in demons went nuts and they were portrayed more powerful and dangerous than ever.

When the Kingdom was established Satan and his minions brought an all out assault but he was defeated, he is bound. All he has now is deception and any foothold he can find due to fear and superstition.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
The Following User Says Thank You to BobVigneault For This Useful Post:
KMK (04-03-2008)
  #33 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2008, 09:18 PM
Pergamum's Avatar
The MacDaddy
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 10,394
Thanks: 2,680
Thanked 2,830 Times in 1,466 Posts
An alternate view is this:

For most of Christian history the church DID believe in the activity of demons.

Remember, Luther threw an inkwell at what he said was the devil. The Protestants killed their fair share of witches and those that appeared possessed.

Then the enlightenment happened and anti-supernaturalism grew and many became deists and the sciences begin to dominate. The Western church became a child of its time and began to deny demons, and then the virgin birth, etc.




However, even though they believed in demons they did speak of the decrease in activity wherever the Gospel went (I'll have to find that quote, I think, by Athanasius). And if this were true then we can expect more dramatic activity in places where the Gospel has not yet made inroads.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
The Following User Says Thank You to Pergamum For This Useful Post:
KMK (04-03-2008)
  #34 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2008, 11:25 AM
lukeh021471's Avatar
Puritanboard Freshman
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Bangor, ME
Posts: 29
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
thanks for all the responses
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #35 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2008, 12:33 PM
Pilgrim's Avatar
Puritanboard Doctor
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Mandeville, LA
Posts: 7,361
Thanks: 1,495
Thanked 932 Times in 643 Posts
I tend to agree with Pergy here, although it may be due to influences early on in my Christian life. I haven't studied this issue in several years.

Here's a post from DTK that presents an interesting view.
__________________
Christian
One Pilgrims Progress
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #36 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2008, 10:04 PM
Puritanboard Sophomore
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Ethiopia
Posts: 991
Thanks: 339
Thanked 221 Times in 140 Posts
The term "possession" is unfortunate, a creation of either Josephus or the KJV translators. In the NT Greek it's reportedly either being demonized or having a demon.

In missions contexts, demonization is a common phenomenon and the power of God over these critters is frequently a major factor in conversions. I have had multiple personal experiences with these things, if anyone is interested. You have it in the states also--it's the in thing for teens to dabble with trances, curses, and various supernatural experiences. Jesus' worldview included the middle storey--an active spirit-world between the human sphere and the divine sphere. It boggles my mind how believers can call Him "Lord" and yet insist that their worldview (excluding the middle storey) is right and, by implication, that His is or was wrong.
__________________
Mary Vanderkooi
Kale Heywott Church (KHC)
Soddo, Ethiopia
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #37 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2008, 10:40 PM
Zenas's Avatar
Snow Miser
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Memphis, TN
Posts: 3,313
Thanks: 313
Thanked 1,412 Times in 741 Posts
While demon possession is at issue in this thread, I would assert that demonic presence is not altogether extinguished, and I don't think anyone here would argue otherwise, but I didn't read the entire thread either.

I know someone who is acutely aware of spiritual presences and has been afflicted, though not possessed, by an otherworldly presence opposing God's saints. The stories I have heard described to me make me glad that I am either too dense to notice things like this or have a hedge of protection around me so that they cannot afflict me. Either way, I'm glad I don't know about that stuff.
__________________
Andrew DeShazo
Husband of Kathryn
Father of Phillip-Giles B. DeShazo
Deacon
Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church, Memphis, TN

"From out of the depth of unbroken Infinfity arose the Question, "Who am I?" And to that Question there is the answer, "I am God!" -Meher Baba, died 1969.

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Christ, died 33 AD, ressurected three days later.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #38 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2008, 11:25 PM
Pergamum's Avatar
The MacDaddy
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 10,394
Thanks: 2,680
Thanked 2,830 Times in 1,466 Posts
If we cannot sense demonic presence then Luther is off his rocker and wasted his inkwell.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #39 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2008, 11:59 PM
Grymir's Avatar
Puritanboard Graduate
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Davenport, IA
Posts: 3,223
Thanks: 683
Thanked 732 Times in 497 Posts
There's also the difference between supernatural and supra-normal. Only God can do supernatural things (ie, break the laws of physics, so to speak, since he created them), demons can only do supra-normal things.

In this sterilized world in America, we (not us at PB, but those in the world)think we have all the scientific answers. Science is a myth.
__________________
Timothy Johnson
First United Presbyterian of Moline
PCUSA (Yea, I know)
Theology/Philosophy Sunday School Teacher
Davenport, IA
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
  #40 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2008, 12:08 AM
Grymir's Avatar
Puritanboard Graduate
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Davenport, IA
Posts: 3,223
Thanks: 683
Thanked 732 Times in 497 Posts
To answer the OP, Lukeh021471, I have. I used to be in Wicca. 99% is fake, the other 1% is so real, a person should not want to mess with the stuff or even open the door. You'll never know what will walk through.

"Oh, my spirit guide helped me"
"My guardian angel protected me"
"God sent an angel to protect me" (by a non-believer)
"Jesus appeared unto me, as if he were standing infront of me"

The above are examples of possible encounters of the demonic kind.

There are certainly demonic ideas.

This topic brings up too many wrong feelings in me. Scary stuff folks.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.0

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:28 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.3.2 ©2009, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright © 2002-2008 PuritanBoard.com
Hosted by WebsiteMaven - helping ministries with web hosting advice, reviews, and design.
67 Westminster Abbey © Confessional Presbyterian Presses - used with permission.
Add Our Custom Button to your Google Toolbar

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69