Conspiracies and Resisting the Powers

Ivanhoe · #1 (**permalink**) 02-13-2009, 11:12 AM

This is from the John Birch thread.

we Enlightenment Americans have a tough time dealing with spiritual forces behind governments, though this was largely a given for most of human history.

Even Walter Wink, a liberal who really didn't have a place for demonic powers in his worldview, was forced to acknowledge the reality in his trilogy.

Or even conspiracies. Psalm 2 = global worldwide conspiracy against God.

but the real clincher is this: do you honestly believe what the news tells you at night to be the actual case? Really? or perhaps what the news doesn't tell you.

Ivanhoe · #2 (**permalink**) 02-13-2009, 01:22 PM

you're exactly right. American Enlightenment Christians (be they liberal/conservative or evangelical/Reformed) believe in the devil, to be sure, but really don't take seriously the "powers."

Paul's *Christus Victor* element of Christ's work only makes sense if we believe "the powers" are real. I mean, how can the be defeated (Colossians 2:15) if they aren't really real?

Anton Bruckner · #3 (**permalink**) 02-13-2009, 08:57 PM

a person has to be a fool to think that the world is trusting. Mankind by nature is conniving and cunning, and always bent on the accumulation of power for fulfillment of his ambition.

historyb · #4 (**permalink**) 02-13-2009, 09:10 PM

Quote:

do you honestly believe what the news tells you at night to be the actual case? Really? or perhaps what the news doesn't tell you.

what the news doesn't tell, tells more

Pergamum · #5 (**permalink**) 02-13-2009, 11:03 PM

I do believe that spiritual powers try to influence all levels of the world's affair.

But affirming that and then concluding that there is a real group called the Illuminati, founded by Adam Weishaupt is a stretch.

FNORD

reformed trucker · #6 (**permalink**) 02-13-2009, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pergamum

FNORD

I'm a "Blue Oval" guy myself, but there is no "N" in FORD.

Dan "a" man · #7 (**permalink**) 02-13-2009, 11:29 PM

What is Illuminati?

**py3ak** · #8 (**permalink**) 02-14-2009, 12:31 PM

The odd thing is that with regard to secret societies you always have to assume that people are competent: but the overwhelming evidence seems to indicate that people are largely incompetent: a few people may be good at several things, and a few more may be quite good at one specialized thing; but inefficiency is endemic to our irrational, bumbling lives: and when you think of evil, it's a mercy that it's so.

TimV · #9 (**permalink**) 02-14-2009, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Psa 2:1 Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain?
Psa 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD and against his Anointed, saying,
Psa 2:3 "Let us burst their bonds apart and cast away their cords from us."
Psa 2:4 He who sits in the heavens laughs; the Lord holds them in derision.

I think the teaching of Scripture is antithetical to the idea of a secret body with great power. I think we should accept as a given that worldly affairs are governed by God turning the heart of the king towards His secret will. We accept that States are generally in rebellion against God.

Quote:

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

That worldly rulers, as expressions of the people that they rule, are continually conspiring against God. That is not to say that they conspire together with other rulers, but rather in what they think is their own best interest, against God's revealed order.

Casey · #10 (**permalink**) 02-14-2009, 01:03 PM

Perhaps it is because Americans are allowed to vote, giving us the illusion that we control who governs, that makes us (American Christians) so susceptible to imaging that our civil leaders are better-intended than they really are. If we vote for human beings, how could demonic forces be behind the results? Not to mention, I think Christians in particular feel a whole lot of guilt for not "doing enough" when the bad guy gets in office, as though, in some sense, disservice has been done to God. This sort of thinking precludes the idea that spiritual forces are behind things. We can't blame spiritual forces if we have only ourselves to blame; we just didn't have enough campaign or lobbying funds.

historyb · #11 (**permalink**) 02-14-2009, 03:37 PM

Quote:

as though, in some sense, disservice has been done to God.

I think that's what I'm still going through thinking

***Semper Fidelis*** · #12 (**permalink**) 02-14-2009, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimV

Quote:

Psa 2:1 Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain?
Psa 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD and against his Anointed, saying,
Psa 2:3 "Let us burst their bonds apart and cast away their cords from us."
Psa 2:4 He who sits in the heavens laughs; the Lord holds them in derision.

I think the teaching of Scripture is antithetical to the idea of a secret body with great power. I think we should accept as a given that worldly affairs are governed by God turning the heart of the king towards His secret will. We accept that States are generally in rebellion against God.

Exegetically, there is no "secret" to the counsel of the kings of the earth in their rebellion against God. They are open about it.

I certainly believe in conspiracies and secrets but widespread conspiracies involving whole governments are nearly impossible to pull off. The more people you need for the conspiracy to succeed, the less likely it is that it's going to remain a secret.

Also, working in a federal agency and with other federal agencies, the competence of the federal government to pull off massive conspiracies is overestimated.

I think we err if we focus too much on state conspiracies with respect to spiritual forces that rage against the Kingdom of God. If we're focused exclusively on the government(s) then the real danger is that we're not taking notice of the subtle yet destructive spiritual forces that rage within a Church. Even with a "permissive" environment and freedom from government intrusion, there are always actors within the Church that are either knowingly or unknowingly attacking the Church of Christ.

Just the other day, for instance, I was asked to pray for a Church that is being destroyed from within by a leader from the Deacon board that doesn't like the Pastor's preaching and is gossiping to other members to get others on his side to remove him from the pulpit. Likewise, the Pastor in that Church is calling on others in the Church to remove the deacon from office. That's where our concern ought to be most fully directed.

In fact, the most regular and destructive form of spiritual warfare that occurs within the Church is the gossip that goes on about the Pastor and Elders - especially by those who are doing so with a "Godly concern." If people took more stock of the spirit they are about when they do so then there would be far less of this but this doesn't get the "headlines" that governmental corruption gets because the spiritual powers are always seen as affecting "other people" and not us.

kalawine · #13 (**permalink**) 02-14-2009, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reformed trucker

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pergamum

FNORD

I'm a "Blue Oval" guy myself, but there is no "N" in FORD.

-----Added 2/14/2009 at 04:16:46 EST-----

Quote:

Originally Posted by Semper Fidelis

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimV

Quote:

Psa 2:1 Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain?
Psa 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD and against his Anointed, saying,
Psa 2:3 "Let us burst their bonds apart and cast away their cords from us."
Psa 2:4 He who sits in the heavens laughs; the Lord holds them in derision.

I think the teaching of Scripture is antithetical to the idea of a secret body with great power. I think we should accept as a given that worldly affairs are governed by God turning the heart of the king towards His secret will. We accept that States are generally in rebellion against God.

Exegetically, there is no "secret" to the counsel of the kings of the earth in their rebellion against God. They are open about it.

I once ordered a DVD from Dr. Robert Morey called, "The Christian and Conspiracies." I loved the radio ad for the DVD. It went something like this:

"Did you know that the world is being run by a secret society that everybody knows about?"

I love it!

tangle Video - Video Details and Comments - tangle.com

kvanlaan · #14 (**permalink**) 02-14-2009, 05:20 PM

Even if the Iluminati is gone, there's always the Brandenburg Group...

Theognome · #15 (**permalink**) 02-15-2009, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by discipulo

Quote:

Originally Posted by py3ak

The odd thing is that with regard to secret societies you always have to assume that people are competent: but the overwhelming evidence seems to indicate that people are largely incompetent: a few people may be good at several things, and a few more may be quite good at one specialized thing; but inefficiency is endemic to our irrational, bumbling lives: and when you think of evil, it's a mercy that it's so.

But think of the concept Adam Smith applied to the economical market and companies. Smith had a theory that the economy was ruled by what he called the Invisible Hand.

People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but when the do invariably the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices.
Adam Smith the Wealth of the Nations

Now imagine that powerful people actually meet regularly and join forces to achieve certain goals, and because of the nature of that cooperation, to keep it discreet, because is not officially recognized, for their actions not to be tracked and stopped, etc, they make it secret, that is, in a smaller or larger scale, a Secret Society.

Adam Smith was a product of his time, when Deism was all the vogue among the European intellectuals. When I read his work, I see his application of 'invisible hand theory' as being his declaration of diety- of God actively working amongst the world. This concept was unpopular amongst the elite of the day; invoking God as being intimate within creation would have rendered his work inaccessible to his intended audience. Thus he used new terminology to state a simple biblical principle. I highly doubt that secret societies were the thrust of his invisible hand.

Theognome

Jan Ziska · #16 (**permalink**) 02-15-2009, 03:15 PM

The 'invisible hand' is a reference to the fact that when you have the right system, natural greed/self interest will lead to more wealth for almost everyone.

On topic, I think people give governments and the 'big' people on earth far too much credit. Seriously, if they could not hide Clinton's adultery, what makes you think they could hide x? (where x = 9/11 or whatever).

Could there be some secret society of world leaders working with the demons to influence world events. Sure. Are there exclusive clubs of powerful people? Sure.

Can they do anything against the will of God? Nope. Do I need to worry about it? Nope.

Fight the battles you can. By all means, contact your elected representatives, run for office, inform people about the evils of rejecting God's law. But losing sleep over a group of men who imagine they have power on earth? Leave it to God.

Pergamum · #17 (**permalink**) 02-16-2009, 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by py3ak

The odd thing is that with regard to secret societies you always have to assume that people are competent: but the overwhelming evidence seems to indicate that people are largely incompetent: a few people may be good at several things, and a few more may be quite good at one specialized thing; but inefficiency is endemic to our irrational, bumbling lives: and when you think of evil, it's a mercy that it's so.

Ha, that is so true.

Forget about secret societies; even the visible ones can't even run one gov't - a secret cabal running them all is clealry an impossibility.

***Semper Fidelis*** · #18 (**permalink**) 02-16-2009, 07:27 AM

This thread is not going to degenerate into wide-eyed conspiracy reporting. I'll keep it open for now but if the spigot of conspiracies re-opens then I'll shut down the thread.

Brad · #19 (**permalink**) 02-16-2009, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Semper Fidelis

This thread is not going to degenerate into wide-eyed conspiracy reporting. I'll keep it open for now but if the spigot of conspiracies re-opens then I'll shut down the thread.

Rich is our very own 'invisible hand'. Its all a grand PB conspiracy! But a benevolent one.

Quote:

2Co 10:3-6 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (4) (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; ) (5) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; (6) And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

Pergamum · #20 (**permalink**) 02-16-2009, 08:21 AM

Rich is in on the plot too! They always control the media!

discipulo · #21 (**permalink**) 02-16-2009, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pergamum

Rich is in on the plot too! They always control the media!

He probably is

But I think he is just making sure that we don’t forget the bigger picture, the only one that really matters after all, The Lord Jesus and His Church.

I really like to share about these things with friends, but I also don’t want to contribute to a debate that can be so messy and speculative and not edifying at all.

***Semper Fidelis*** · #22 (**permalink**) 02-16-2009, 08:42 AM

I really have a pet peeve about conspiracy mongors. It's always the same tune: "Well, if you just did research into these things..." or "...the real media reports this..."

The irony is how accessible these conspiracies are on the web - in other words, you guys that believe you're so well informed about the real "goings on" ever stop to think that if it's a good conspiracy then you really shouldn't have such wide access to tell the rest of us nincompoops that we have the wool pulled over our eyes.

I have to speak as a fool because some who report these conspiracies act as a form of gnostikoi and *really* know the machinations of world government from the pieces they put together in their living room. Never mind that I sit in classified briefings nearly daily and help defend the entire Marine Corps network against domestic and foreign intrusion. Never mind that I've listened to non-attributed lectures from some of the highest in government and DOD and know that men in power aren't "black hats" and "white hats" and are no more capable of orchestrating vast conspiracies than you are at discovering them.

Seriously, it simply insults my intelligence to have to read this stuff. It's a free country but not a free board. If you must discuss that kind of stuff because you're convinced I'm either a tyrant or "part of the machine itself" then that's fine but do it elsewhere because this board isn't going to abide it.

As I noted above, the real struggle is within our own hearts and also within the Church. Many posts confirm my frustration that people focus their energy on all the wrong things. In fact, the irony is that many of the type of conspiracy-minded folks do nothing to build up Churches but every thing to tear them down from within. They are a constant source of complaint and gossip because the Church isn't doing it's "real job" in standing up against all the vast conspiracies of the world that you can't get from the "normal media".

Rant off.

Anton Bruckner · #23 (**permalink**) 02-16-2009, 08:51 AM

Rich I think its unfair that you deleted my post which clearly shows the reasoning process of people that believe in conspiracies. I wouldn't have mind if you had edited it to conform to your principles but to outright delete it I think is wrong because it leaves a skewed impression of the discussion. And what I said was factual. Conspiracy theorists don't come up with their theories out of thin air, they usually base it on some fact. The question is whether their conjectures from the facts are warranted.

Heck I have a co worker that sees discrimination on the job. Me personally I have never experienced any, but he bases his conclusions on how many supervisors of a particular race there are. And you know what, there are very few supervisors of that particular race. This was the crux of my post.

***Semper Fidelis*** · #24 (**permalink**) 02-16-2009, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anton Bruckner

Rich I think its unfair that you deleted my post which clearly shows the reasoning process of people that believe in conspiracies. I wouldn't have mind if you had edited it to conform to your principles but to outright delete it I think is wrong because it leaves a skewed impression of the discussion. And what I said was factual. Conspiracy theorists don't come up with their theories out of thin air, they usually base it on some fact. The question is whether their conjectures from the facts are warranted.

Heck I have a co worker that sees discrimination on the job. Me personally I have never experienced any, but he bases his conclusions on how many supervisors of a particular race there are. And you know what, there are very few supervisors of that particular race. This was the crux of my post.

Anton,

As I noted above, there are plenty of boards around the internet where you can find a supportive environment to discuss what you believe are the facts. This forum is not a geo-political conspiracy discussion forum and I am moderating to keep the thread on track.

I'll tell you what, as long as we agree that I don't have any right to walk into your house and tell you what conversations are appropriate therein then we can agree that the same rule applies here.

ColdSilverMoon · #25 (**permalink**) 02-16-2009, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Semper Fidelis

In fact, the most regular and destructive form of spiritual warfare that occurs within the Church is the gossip that goes on about the Pastor and Elders - especially by those who are doing so with a "Godly concern." If people took more stock of the spirit they are about when they do so then there would be far less of this but this doesn't get the "headlines" that governmental corruption gets because the spiritual powers are always seen as affecting "other people" and not us.

I couldn't agree more with this, Rich. It's interesting to note that Paul puts gossip and slander right up there with murder and sexual deviancy in Romans 1. The church may not be overtly guilty of the last two on a wide scale, but we fail miserably when it comes to breaking the 9th commandment and often times don't even realize it. This divisiveness and maliciousness is more insidious yet much more damaging than any government conspiracy could even dream of being...

puritanpilgrim · #26 (**permalink**) 03-31-2009, 06:25 PM

Quote:

What is Illuminati?

Illuminati is very naughty.