Textual/mss Variants - Impact to Faith and Practice

panta dokimazete · #1 (**permalink**) 01-05-2008, 02:14 PM

OK - I have been loosely following this thread and will confess that I am not an scholar of the mss variants or textual criticism - can someone help me understand how/if adoption of certain text variations/mss would impact Christian faith and practice or is this mostly a scholarly exercise?

Not trying to devalue the scholarship, etc and no need for a dissertation, just want to understand the basis of the debate.

greenbaggins · #2 (**permalink**) 01-05-2008, 02:18 PM

While I hope I am not being unfair to the TR folk here, I would summarize it this way: eclectic text folk believe that the modern methods in no way hamper one's commitment to sola scriptura, nor do such methods endanger the purity of the text. Eclectic folk also do not reject the Byzantine manuscripts, but rather insist that all manuscripts be given their due. It is the opinion of Reformed eclectic folk that the differences between the ct and the tr are not that great. TR folk would disagree with just about everything stated above.

panta dokimazete · #3 (**permalink**) 01-05-2008, 03:03 PM

Thanks, Lane

- looking forward to an equally pithy response from a TR proponent!

Jerusalem Blade · #4 (**permalink**) 01-05-2008, 03:26 PM

It's a good question, JD. And it is good to have Lane speaking in behalf of the CT/ET, seeing as he remains gracious in the fray!

It comes to this, do we have a sure text of Scripture, or are many readings in dispute and uncertain?

Maurice Robinson, MT advocate (and no friend of the KJV/TR position!), says

Christians who use a translation based upon the Alexandrian (or even the Western) texttype are only somewhat disadvantaged from a Byzantine-priority perspective, specifically in the study of details. The best-selling NIV, the NASV, and most other modern translations are themselves based upon a generally-Alexandrian text, and Christians seem to suffer no devastating effects from their use (one must remember that, regardless of texttype, over 85% of the text found in all manuscripts is identical).

There are certain exegetical and theological problems found within the manuscripts of the Alexandrian and Western texttypes. Many readings are plainly erroneous or contradict other passages of Scripture. However, the primary doctrinal emphases of Scripture remain sufficient and clear throughout even the worst of these manuscripts. Their many textual errors are in no way endorsed by the present editors, however, even though some of these erroneous readings appear in various modern English translations and critical Greek editions.*

*Introduction to Robinson & Pierpont

That 15% difference is significant. In his book, Defending the King James Bible, D.A. Waite says that the Critical Text changes 9,970 words from the text of the TR. That includes omissions, additions, and changes. This is equal to changing every word in the entire book of Romans (9,447 words), or 1 Corinthians (9,489 words), or all the books, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, and 1 Thessalonians (9,096 words)! Seeing as we are commanded not to add to or subtract from the words of God, this amounts to a very serious matter.

Something's not right in such a great discrepancy; in the CT (and all the eclectic texts I am aware of, as they retain the majority and most significant changes of the CT) these above-mentioned changes are serious! The entire last 12 verses of Mark 16, the entire 12 verses of John 7:53-8:11, God missing in 1 Tim 3:16, etc etc etc. To my thinking the "eclectic" text is simply a variation of the standard CT with this difference: its proponents just pick and choose slightly differently from the CT. They're "kissing cousins."

At issue is, Do we have a sure text of Scripture? I think only the KJV/TR folks say Yes we do. They are under heavy fire for such a stand, called ignoramuses, rigid reactionaries, etc. But as you can see they are capable of mounting a reasonable, gracious defense. It is vital that they do, for the days are coming when there shall be a famine of hearing the word of God:

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it. (Amos 8:11, 12)

Although these words have come to pass many times over the ages, I believe this prophecy has relevance in our own day, and for sure in the days of our children and grandchildren, for the confidence in the reliability of the Bible will have diminished to such an extent, that it will be as a famine!

I have seen it happen, and it is a terrible thing.

I do not say that those who hold to the CT and its relatives are not good Christians. I know some of them to be better and smarter and closer to the Lord than I am. They are fine men and women. That is not the issue. The issue is, What is the word of God? There are basically two lines of transmission, the CT and the TR (and there is an equivalent to this in the OT also), although the CT is comprised of but a fraction of the mss compared to the TR. They cannot both be right.

There is a small contingent of men and women who hold to the old Reformation Bible, the TR. We are quite able to withstand all our opponents, be they doctors, Greek "experts", textual critics, etc. We do it for love of His word. (I do not say the CT folks do not love His word, for they do; the question is which version that is loved is the pure one?)

JD, it matters. There is a lot of dust in the air from the fray now, but in the generations to come, when it settles, the devastation will be seen. Nonetheless, we will hold up this standard as long as God gives us to do it. Myself, I do not write in this defense only for my peers, but for the generations to come, as have those others who are my colleagues in this matter.

The "old-fashioned language" objection is not the real issue (I often "modernize" my reading, especially for those folks who do not understand English very well); the issue is What is the text we are using?

Folks get by on the CT. But there is a growing diminishing of confidence, it eats like a cancer at the heart of faith. There is an ill fruit growing. Our progeny will see it (may they not taste of it!).

Sorry to go on so long, but this is on my heart and mind.

KMK · #5 (**permalink**) 01-05-2008, 03:44 PM

For starters the CT theology requires throwing out WSC Q #107 and WLC Q # 196.

This thread has a lot to say about the subject: AV Theology Compared to Modern Versions

greenbaggins · #6 (**permalink**) 01-11-2008, 03:20 PM

Not so fast on the Lord's Prayer. TR people seem to forget that each textual variant has to be decided on its own merits. The three-fold ending for the Lord's Prayer does have attestation outside the Byzantine tradition. The Caesarean text-type attests it (fam 13), Alexandrian text-type attests it (L), and, of course, the Byzantine text-type. Not all CT folk would give the minus an A rating, as Metzger's commentary does. I really wish that the TR people would be willing to acknowledge that arguments that work against Metzger might not work against someone committed to biblical inerrancy.

larryjf · #7 (**permalink**) 01-11-2008, 04:01 PM

Lane,

Wouldn't the problem with what you are saying be that you don't have such a text? I mean, unless you developed your own critical text you couldn't really have a text that picks and chooses as you are suggesting. Further, wouldn't that mean that everybody could create their particular text that they feel is made of the best manuscripts, though it doesn't agree with anyone else?

as to the op...

Quote:

can someone help me understand how/if adoption of certain text variations/mss would impact Christian faith and practice or is this mostly a scholarly exercise?

I would say that in the specifics it is mostly a scholarly issue (i wouldn't use the word exercise). However, in the broad sense it is very important to one's faith and practice...

If we can't be sure that the Bible (and the underlying texts) are closed, but always open for the pen of the textual critic, then we can stop looking at Scripture as it ought to be looked at....the inspired, infallible Word of God.

If we are willing to leave the biblical text open to new evidence, then there is no valid reason for not leaving it open to new evidence about which books are in or out of the biblical text.

KMK · #8 (**permalink**) 01-11-2008, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenbaggins

Not so fast on the Lord's Prayer. TR people seem to forget that each textual variant has to be decided on its own merits. The three-fold ending for the Lord's Prayer does have attestation outside the Byzantine tradition. The Caesarean text-type attests it (fam 13), Alexandrian text-type attests it (L), and, of course, the Byzantine text-type. Not all CT folk would give the minus an A rating, as Metzger's commentary does. I really wish that the TR people would be willing to acknowledge that arguments that work against Metzger might not work against someone committed to biblical inerrancy.

Rev Keister, if I may be so bold, given your statement here and in other places, maybe it is a misnomer to refer to yourself as 'CT folk'. I think you don't fit that mold.

greenbaggins · #9 (**permalink**) 01-11-2008, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larryjf

Lane,

Wouldn't the problem with what you are saying be that you don't have such a text? I mean, unless you developed your own critical text you couldn't really have a text that picks and chooses as you are suggesting. Further, wouldn't that mean that everybody could create their particular text that they feel is made of the best manuscripts, though it doesn't agree with anyone else?

as to the op...

Quote:

can someone help me understand how/if adoption of certain text variations/mss would impact Christian faith and practice or is this mostly a scholarly exercise?

I would say that in the specifics it is mostly a scholarly issue (i wouldn't use the word exercise). However, in the broad sense it is very important to one's faith and practice...

If we can't be sure that the Bible (and the underlying texts) are closed, but always open for the pen of the textual critic, then we can stop looking at Scripture as it ought to be looked at....the inspired, infallible Word of God.

If we are willing to leave the biblical text open to new evidence, then there is no valid reason for not leaving it open to new evidence about which books are in or out of the biblical text.

Well, Larry, is there any one manuscript existent today that corresponds 100% to the original that the particular NT author wrote? The TR does not do so. There is not one single Byzantine manuscript that corresponds 100% to the TR. To prove that is very simple. The Comma Johanneum is not found in most Byzantine manuscripts. Only a very, very few have it. And yet, it is in the TR. Secondly, Stephanus' edition of the Greek New Testament had an apparatus detailing all the differences found in the 14 manuscripts that were the basis of his text. In other words, the TR have precisely the same difficulty that the CT folk have. Which Byzantine manuscript is it? Once you admit that there needs to be more than one manuscript to support the TR, then you've given the ball game away. In reality, I have already answered this one: we have the Greek NT. Let me ask you this: why did God not preserve the original manuscript, and instead gave us 5000 manuscripts of the NT? What is your explanation? So that we can ignore much of the evidence?

greenbaggins · #10 (**permalink**) 01-11-2008, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KMK

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenbaggins

Not so fast on the Lord's Prayer. TR people seem to forget that each textual variant has to be decided on its own merits. The three-fold ending for the Lord's Prayer does have attestation outside the Byzantine tradition. The Caesarean text-type attests it (fam 13), Alexandrian text-type attests it (L), and, of course, the Byzantine text-type. Not all CT folk would give the minus an A rating, as Metzger's commentary does. I really wish that the TR people would be willing to acknowledge that arguments that work against Metzger might not work against someone committed to biblical inerrancy.

Rev Keister, if I may be so bold, given your statement here and in other places, maybe it is a misnomer to refer to yourself as 'CT folk'. I think you don't fit that mold.

Does this mean that I am allowed to believe in the inerrancy of Scripture, and that I believe we have the Greek NT?

larryjf · #11 (**permalink**) 01-11-2008, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenbaggins

Well, Larry, is there any one manuscript existent today that corresponds 100% to the original that the particular NT author wrote? The TR does not do so. There is not one single Byzantine manuscript that corresponds 100% to the TR. To prove that is very simple. The Comma Johanneum is not found in most Byzantine manuscripts. Only a very, very few have it. And yet, it is in the TR. Secondly, Stephanus' edition of the Greek New Testament had an apparatus detailing all the differences found in the 14 manuscripts that were the basis of his text. In other words, the TR have precisely the same difficulty that the CT folk have. Which Byzantine manuscript is it? Once you admit that there needs to be more than one manuscript to support the TR, then you've given the ball game away. In reality, I have already answered this one: we have the Greek NT. Let me ask you this: why did God not preserve the original manuscript, and instead gave us 5000 manuscripts of the NT? What is your explanation? So that we can ignore much of the evidence?

That's why i never said anything about being inerrant. You are correct in saying that we don't have 100% original documents in our Bible, and there never was a Bible with original autographs nor will there ever be one. The modern idea of searching for the original text is an unattainable quest.

Nobody will have a perfect text that matches the originals, so why change the text that the historical Church has held to? It's one thing to understand that we don't have a perfect text, it's another how we apply that understanding...

We can say that since we don't have a perfect text we must search for it...keep the Bible open to editing until it is found (which will be never)...

or we can say that we will receive the text of the Church as the Word of God and not leave it open for change....even with the imperfections.

As far as why God has given us 5,000+ manuscripts, i don't feel at liberty to say as God has not revealed His purpose in this. I certainly don't think that we can presume God allowed the originals be destroyed because He is a proponent of modern textual criticism.

greenbaggins · #12 (**permalink**) 01-11-2008, 06:30 PM

[quote=larryjf;343789]

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenbaggins

Well, Larry, is there any one manuscript existent today that corresponds 100% to the original that the particular NT author wrote? The TR does not do so. There is not one single Byzantine manuscript that corresponds 100% to the TR. To prove that is very simple. The Comma Johanneum is not found in most Byzantine manuscripts. Only a very, very few have it. And yet, it is in the TR. Secondly, Stephanus' edition of the Greek New Testament had an apparatus detailing all the differences found in the 14 manuscripts that were the basis of his text. In other words, the TR have precisely the same difficulty that the CT folk have. Which Byzantine manuscript is it? Once you admit that there needs to be more than one manuscript to support the TR, then you've given the ball game away. In reality, I have already answered this one: we have the Greek NT. Let me ask you this: why did God not preserve the original manuscript, and instead gave us 5000 manuscripts of the NT? What is your explanation? So that we can ignore much of the evidence?

Quote:

That's why i never said anything about being inerrant. You are correct in saying that we don't have 100% original documents in our Bible, and there never was a Bible with original autographs nor will there ever be one. The modern idea of searching for the original text is an unattainable quest.

This is ambiguous. What do you mean by the search? Do you mean a search to find the literal pieces of paper called the autographs? Or do you mean the search among the extant manuscripts? If the former, I agree, but no one is doing that. If the latter, most CT advocates think that our work is almost completely done already.

Quote:

Nobody will have a perfect text that matches the originals, so why change the text that the historical Church has held to? It's one thing to understand that we don't have a perfect text, it's another how we apply that understanding...

Again, what manuscripts did the Alexandrian church hold to? The Byzantine manuscript tradition was not universally held to during all ages of the church. As far as I know, there are no Byzantine text-form manuscripts that originated in Alexandria. So was that not a church, because they didn't have the Byzantine text-form? Were they corrupting the texts?

Quote:

We can say that since we don't have a perfect text we must search for it...keep the Bible open to editing until it is found (which will be never)...

or we can say that we will receive the text of the Church as the Word of God and not leave it open for change....even with the imperfections.

As I said, the CT position does not require the notion that we are still searching for it. If no new knowledge ever came up, we would still have the Word of God.

Quote:

As far as why God has given us 5,000+ manuscripts, i don't feel at liberty to say as God has not revealed His purpose in this. I certainly don't think that we can presume God allowed the originals be destroyed because He is a proponent of modern textual criticism.

This is a copout, and the latter sentence doesn't even begin to approximate what I argue. In fact, I know of no one who holds it. I believe that the autographs are not with us lest we worship a piece of paper (check, papyrus). But God's providence extends to all the manuscripts, not just some of them.

larryjf · #13 (**permalink**) 01-11-2008, 07:14 PM

Lane,

Quote:

This is ambiguous. What do you mean by the search? Do you mean a search to find the literal pieces of paper called the autographs? Or do you mean the search among the extant manuscripts? If the former, I agree, but no one is doing that. If the latter, most CT advocates think that our work is almost completely done already.

First, i disagree that most CT advocates think they will ever have a text that matches the originals. As a matter of fact, most have abandoned such an end to their efforts.

I mean a search for the original readings, not original documents. This can never be established as there are no originals to compare the results to.

Quote:

Again, what manuscripts did the Alexandrian church hold to? The Byzantine manuscript tradition was not universally held to during all ages of the church. As far as I know, there are no Byzantine text-form manuscripts that originated in Alexandria. So was that not a church, because they didn't have the Byzantine text-form? Were they corrupting the texts?

Are we to look to the Alexandrian church for our manuscripts or to the Byzantine church, which is the same region that the originals were actually sent.

And i don't think that a particular church is only valid if it has the infallible Word of God. There were true churches even before the NT canon was completed. However, in then Alexandrian area there were a great number of corrupt religious teachings.

As far as corrupting the texts...yes, i think we are all in agreement that the texts have been corrupted by those within the Church. Isn't that why some form of textual criticism is needed? But i also think that the Byzantine church would be "able" to correct the text more readily as they were the possessors of the originals.

Quote:

As I said, the CT position does not require the notion that we are still searching for it. If no new knowledge ever came up, we would still have the Word of God.

And yet they don't seem to stop putting out new versions of the critical text.

Quote:

This is a copout, and the latter sentence doesn't even begin to approximate what I argue. In fact, I know of no one who holds it. I believe that the autographs are not with us lest we worship a piece of paper (check, papyrus). But God's providence extends to all the manuscripts, not just some of them.

Please don't use the word "us" when you refer to folks worshiping the autographs as i don't consider myself part of that group. Why would i worship the original autographs? How can one worship something when that very same thing tells us not to worship it?

God's providence extends to more than just all manuscripts, it also extends to everything that ever happens. But that still doesn't mean that we are aware of His purposes in that providence.

So while we can say that God did providentially preserve all of the extant manuscripts, we can't say that He did so in order to embrace a minority of those preserved texts...not can we say that He did it so that we would embrace the majority...we simply can't know His purpose in it.

larryjf · #14 (**permalink**) 01-11-2008, 07:50 PM

Thinking of God's providence regarding the preservation of manuscripts...

God providentially preserved the Byzantine Greek text where their language was Greek. In the West they started using Latin instead of Greek so the Greek manuscripts were simply not copied or preserved in many of the ages because they were promoting the Latin text.

God providentially had Alexandria conquered by the Muslims, effectively shutting off the propagation of their manuscripts.

So why would God providentially have none but the Byzantine empire produce Greek texts for such a large part of Church history?

Thomas2007 · #15 (**permalink**) 01-11-2008, 10:56 PM

Quote:

But God's providence extends to all the manuscripts, not just some of them.

I believe this also, excepting, that I believe that the variants exist whereby the word of God in the plurality of New Testament manuscripts is preserved as a parable, which is the prophecy concerning it, expansively, and the example given within it. In other words, I consider them as the "stammering lips" of the word of God in another tongue.

For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. Isaiah 28:10

"Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given." Matthew 13:9-11

I believe the variants exist to confound the reprobate, just as Christ spoke face to face with the Apostle's in parables, allowing some to not truly understand like the non-elect Pharisee's, wherein He will say in the last day:

"When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out." Luke 13:25-28

and

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Matthew 7:21-23

These are terrifying thoughts, but I just pray that God grant me grace to understand and hold true to the faith once delivered to the saints and manifest the works of a saint whereby He is counting me as His child and the Protestant faith is true and Rome's is not.

Thomas2007 · #16 (**permalink**) 01-12-2008, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by panta dokimazete

OK - I have been loosely following this thread and will confess that I am not an scholar of the mss variants or textual criticism - can someone help me understand how/if adoption of certain text variations/mss would impact Christian faith and practice or is this mostly a scholarly exercise?

Not trying to devalue the scholarship, etc and no need for a dissertation, just want to understand the basis of the debate.

Hello JD,

A little understanding of the history of Protestant scholasticism is necessary to understand the implications to your question. It is not, however, merely a scholarly exercise as it affects the life of the Church and individuals, indeed all of society, as the textual debate and publishing of critical text Bibles is not merely academic but invades the life of every individual in the Church.

We are receiving an already developed and unified theology derived from a converging of identification of the authentic canonical texts, exegesis and development of both biblical and dogmatic theology including creedal defenses; in contrast, our Protestant forefathers were engaged in rejecting Roman theology, which was the development of generation upon generation of theologizing creating its unified theology through the same type of convergence.

The Protestants were distinguishing between Biblical theology and Roman dogmatics, the former describing the theology of the early Church which developed the earliest ecumenical creeds, and the latter which was the present Roman Church and its novelties.

The acceptance of the Received Text coincides with the return to ancient catholic creedal orthodoxy and cannot properly be understood in the absence of that knowledge. In other words, they just didn't presume the text of Scripture existed in a theological vacuum and look out upon the sea of manuscripts as modern criticism, develop a hypothesis of transmission, and start working backwards to restore inerrancy of the autographs and declare this or that a true reading...and then develop their theology from the text.

It was, rather, the presupposition of our Biblical theology exegetically derived from the Byzantine text that the Romanists had introduced novelities in its Dogmatic theology upon the purity of ancient catholic orthodoxy that were derived from their text of Scripture, exegesis thereof and developed dogmatism. In order to correct those novelties and return to ancient catholic orthodoxy, it was necessary to reject everything that departed from it: texts, exegesis, hermeneutics, doctrines &c.

Muller notes citing Leigh: "This is not dogmatics divorced from exegesis, but dogmatics framed by the exegetical debates of the day. Leigh comments at length on the "great diversity of editions of the Holy Scripture" and shows the need to distinguish between them."

"There is a question betwixt the Church of Rome and the reformed Churches about the authentic edition of Scripture; they say, that the edition of the Bible in Hebrew and Greek is not authentic, but rather the vulgar Latin. We hold that the vulgar Latin is very corrupt and false; that the Hebrew for the Old Testament and the Greek for the New is the sincere and authentic writing of God; therefore that all other things are to be determined by them; and that the other versions are so far to be approved of, as they agree with these fountains."

Muller, Post-Reformation Reformed Dogmatics, p 422, 1993

While our Protestant forebears could find the essentials of the Christian faith in the Latin Vulgate, they recognized many of its readings as being influenced by ancient heresies, such as Arianism, which over time had bloomed into the novelties they were now rejecting in their return to ancient catholic orthodoxy. The Latin Vulgate is translated from particular Greek texts. Nolan explains how