The late Dr. Ted Letis, a true text scholar with Ivy League credentials debunks the myth that the ESV is a faithful translation. I encourage you all to give this a listen.

__________________
Pastor Jerrold H. Lewis. (Dipl. IT; Assc. A; B.Th; M.Th Candidate, PRTS)
Lacombe Free Reformed Church
"A hot iron, though blunt, will pierce sooner than a cold one, though sharper."

JOHN FLAVEL

My Blog - Click HERE
Our Church site - Click HERE

I am eager to compare this with my own findings-

SermonAudio.com - Reformed Baptist Church

__________________
Bob, elder, RBC Louisville. 1689 LBCF

"... Of such also, or of those who make a credible profession of being such, all those particular churches consist, which constitute our Lord's visible kingdom. ... Consequently, all the subjects of His government must have spiritual dispositions, , and yield spiritual obedience- obedience proceeding from an enlightened understanding, an awakened conscience, and a renewed heart."- Abraham Booth 1788

Jerrold and/or Bob,

Do either one of you have a manuscript version? I have been having problems with my speakers on my computer.

__________________
John Lanier
Elder in Training
Reformed Baptist Church
Topeka, KS

John, if you could PM me I will see what I can do about getting you a print version.

It is interesting I was just talking to one a man who has been our pulpit supply for the last few weeks and he was saying some of the very same things...as I clutched my ESV Study Bible.

__________________
Willie Grills
Trinity Presbyterian Church
OPC
Huntington, WV

Can we get a synopsis/cliffs?

__________________
Brian E
Attending Falls OPC
Menomonee Falls, WI

O.K., I will listen: but before I do, this guy isn't a KJV pusher, is he? Because the ESV is so superior to the KJV, in regards to faithfulness to the Greek, that to even say otherwise is preposterous. And I am SO tired of listening to KJV only cultists, or, mildly less annoying, KJV preferred people, that prefer the KJV simply because it's Shakespearean, Elizabethan language, "sounds better" (though they would never admit to such).

So, is the guy endorsing a better version (HCSB, NET, etc)? Or is he pushing a KJV only/preferred adenda?

__________________
Damon Rambo
Southern Baptist Convention
Member of Brazosport Baptist Temple, South Texas
Youth Pastor/Evangelist

Straight Walk Ministries is my home.

Pastor Lewis,

I believe that if the Textus Receptus people would put out a faithful modern translation, we could solve this problem today. The thing is that TR people will say that ANY translation is unfaithful as long as it is not based on the TR. I am a TR guy that prefers the ESV to the NKJV for a number of reasons...

So where is this translation? The church needs it.

__________________
Pastor Nathan Eshelman, Los Angeles, CA
Reformed Presbyterian Church
PRESBYTERIAN THOUGHTS
Los Angeles Reformed Presbyterian Church
RPCLA Sermons Online
Puritan Reformed Seminary

For my part I am not a KJV only guy. I prefer the Byzantine text and therefore use the New King James. Greek text aside I like the New American Standard Bible too.

Not all KJV only people are "KJV Onlyists" in the line of Riplinger, Ruckmann, etc. Whether you think so or not, preposterous is not a term that can be applied to their arguments or assertions.

__________________
Josh Hicks, Chloë's Dad
Christ Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCGA
Facebook - The Calvinist Vent
Board Rules - Signature Rules - Suggestion Box

It is God that multiplies our sorrows.... God, as a righteous Judge, does it, which ought to silence us under all our sorrows; as many as they are, we have deserved them all, and more: nay, God, as a tender Father, does it for our necessary correction, that we may be humbled for sin, and weaned from the world by all our sorrows; and the good we get by them, with the comfort we have under them, will abundantly balance our sorrows, how greatly soever they are multiplied. - Matthew Henry

Ya, that's not laced with bias at all. Give it a listen, then we can talk. Letis was a Ph.D from the University of Edinburgh with top notch credentials. Disagree or agree, he has very intelligent things to say. You must be a very good Greek scholar to insist that the ESV is SO superior to the KJV. We neophytes who only have 4 semesters of Greek could learn much from you I think.

He seems to be saying two things:

1. The only manuscripts that are legitimate are the ones that went into the Latin Vulgate and its Eastern equivalent, which he dubs the "definitive canonical" versions of the Word; and

2. The RSV, and by extension the ESV, are particularly dubious, because they are based on early manuscripts that do not fit the qualification above.

__________________
Louis DiBiase
Louisville, KY

Following that argument to its conclusion, our AV is in error because it does not contain the Apocrypha.

__________________
James N. Walling
Center Grove Presbyterian Church (PCA)
IL

κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς

View some of my photography at http://www.puritanboard.com/members/...s-my-life.html

Doesn't follow.

__________________
Conscience may lash us, but it cannot replenish a languishing life. Conscience may be God's word and minister to you, telling you of your faults and your follies and your destitution. It may point out, but it will never supply you. Christ must give you new life. Hart has well expressed it: "He to the feeble and the faint, His mighty aid makes known; and when their languid life is spent, supplies it with His own." - J. K. Popham

Can you explain how it does not follow? It seems to be the logical end of the argument.

__________________
Kathleen M
nondenominational
Montana

It was never part of canon.

I am extremely confused by what you are asking here. Are you asking me to explain your argument? That will be difficult, since I apparently don't understand it.

If one argues that the Vulgate is legitimate then it would seem to follow that the Apocrypha should be in modern translations. This is problematic to me.

Edit: We seem to have cross posted, and I still don't understand your point. But no worries, I'm content to leave it be. I'm fairly certain of my view and there are other people with whom I can discuss this.

I could, but I would have to listen to him again. Is that what you are asking me to do?

__________________
Robert K. "Kelly" Brumbelow
In Inquirer's class at Grace Presbyterian (PCA) Cedartown, GA
Cedartown, Georgia

Dear Lord and Father of mankind, Forgive our foolish ways;
Reclothe us in our rightful mind, In purer lives Thy service find,
In deeper reverence, praise. - John Greenleaf Whittier 1807-1892

It appears the argument for the KJV is because the Greek texts used to translate Latin Vulgate should be the only Greek texts used for any translation. Thus according to the ESV is wrong because it does exclusively used the Greek texts that the Latin Vulgate used. The Latin Vulgate also contains the Apophrica, and since its translation contained the correct Greek texts, we must be wrong not when we do not include in our translations the apophrica since the apophrica was from the same correct texts.

Just not understanding the logic in his argument. x texts were used in y translation then those texts are the correct texts for z translation. X texts also contained q books, since x texts are the correct texts because that is what the Fathers used, and since x texts also contained q books, then q books must also be correct.
We in the reformed community have rejected q books, even though they were used by some church fathers, thus why does one portion of x texts become superior while some of the same x texts but q books have been rejected.

Finally, I thought one of the main arguments against the CT over the MT was because the CT aligned more closely to the Latin Vulgate.

I think Dr. Letis' point was that the manuscripts that went into the Vulgate are the correct manuscripts to base our translations on. It doesn't necessarily follow that all of the books included in the Vulgate are the correct books.

Listening now....hmmmm....

__________________
~Gloria G.~
Bride of Warren G.
Member of Trinity Presbyterian Church, PCA, Southeast Georgia

"Turn my eyes from looking at worthless things; and give me life in your ways." Psalm 119:37

Ah, I see. Thank you for the clarification!

I have only taken 2 years of Greek (apparently, the same as yourself). However, it does not take a rocket scientist to see an unrecognized perfect tense verb, or a passive verb translated as an active.

The fact is, that the ESV relies heavily on texts which are neglected by other versions, KJV included. The Septuagint, for instance, which was quoted by Jesus and the disciples, but was ignored by some translators. Apparently, they know more than Christ.

MODERATOR'S HAT ON:

Can we possibly have one thread on textual/translation issues that does not quickly descend into schoolyard name-calling?

Jerrold - you could be a bit more circumspect in the OP, and avoid shock bomb throwing.

Damon - you can avoid acting as if you have definitively answered translation issues. As a pastor who uses the ESV, and has 20+ years of Greek experience (including an MA in Classical Greek from a top 5 university), I can say that your blanket statement is not true.

Keep it civil, or this thread dies a quick death.

__________________
Fred Greco
Senior Pastor, Christ Church PCA (Katy, TX)
Christ Church Blog

"The heart is the main thing in true religion...It is the hinge and turning-point in the condition of man's soul. If the heart is alive to God and quickened by the Spirit, the man is a living Christian. If the heart is dead and has not the Spirit, the man is dead before God." (J.C. Ryle)

No, what we are asking is that you substantiate your large claims. Is that an absurd request?

CT

__________________
Hermonta Godwin
Christ The King PCA
Raleigh, NC

Ummm...so it's just the typical TR vs. CT debate? If so,there doesn't seem to be anything new.

__________________
Bill Brown
Elder
Reformed Baptist
Maryland

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?
Visit my BLOG Theology for the Rest of Us

Yep that was my first thought also.

A Quote to Remember Concerning Charity in Discussion

Robert, the point that many are making is this:

Unsubstantiated assertions from either side provide no light but plenty of heat. Heat causes otherwise fruitful discussions to degenerate into "Are so, Are not" volleys that have no value, and are, quite frankly, an embarrassment to the PB. Please refrain from making assertions without providing some kind of substantiation. There is no need for a detailed list, but how about some examples from off the top of your head?

__________________


http://www.villagecommunitychurch.org/


"Preparing a sermon is like cooking a meal. You need pots and pans and utensils, but you don't bring them out to the table where people are eating." Derek Thomas


Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Actually in this particular case it was flamethrowing name calling from the CT side that helped this particular conversation devolve (I have seen both sides start the fights on PB).

Your analysis bears closer scrutiny, however, on substantial grounds. It is not simply a bipolar argument. In my time on PB, I have not seen many true "KJV only" folks in the cultic sense. Those who prefer the KJV seem to do so in part, as you suggest, for reasons of how they see God choosing to preserve his Word. But, they also do so because they seem to think that the Byzantine tradition is a more reliable one on scholarly grounds. Those who adopt the CT also do so for reasons of scholarly conviction AND because that is how they see God choosing to preserve his Word. A growing number of folks reject both the TR with its half dozen Erasmian mss AND the NA/UBS textual tradition with its putative text that actually never existed in written form at any time in the past. They favor the Byzantine tradition of 95% of the mss extant which is neither TR nor CT.

I will grant you that we seem to get almost as exercised over this one as Baptism and theonomy. However, it need not be so. Let's extend one another a bit of charity and admit that one's motives may be sound even if one's argument is ultimately proven to be erroneous.

In my experience it is VERY difficult to throw off the traces of the vast numbers of textual critics of left (Ehrman) and right (Wallace) who agree with the NA/UBS text. However, some of the arguments put forth on the PB have convinced me to look at the other side with a great deal more sympathy.

__________________
Dennis E. McFadden, Ex Mainline Baptist (in Remission)
Atherton Baptist Homes, CEO
First Baptist Church of Alhambra, Member, Transformation Ministries (CA)

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

I was reading this thread and the only thing I could think of is... either way the argument goes... for me, ignorance is bliss (as I hug the ESV study Bible my husband bought me as my christmas present)....
ok this commercial break is over, carry on.

__________________
Jessica Auner
Wife, Mother,
Garden City, Ga
Ephesus Church
(a Reformed Baptist church)

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

ENOUGH!

I am deleting any and all posts that even sniff like an attitude. Drop the bickering back and forth. Deal with the issue in a charitable way or leave the discussion. If you can't do that then you will be prohibited from participating in this thread.

There is a great deal of wisdom in this post even though it is 'off topic'. Neither side should imply that every Christian must become their own authority in this matter. That is too great a burden. There is nothing wrong with relying on the opinions of your God-given watchmen. I think every thread in the T&M Forum should have this as a disclaimer. (Now this commercial break is over as well.)

Actually the CT (Westcott and Hort) folks started the first attack:

"I had no idea till the last few weeks of the importance of texts, having read so little Greek Testament, and dragged on with the villainous Textus Receptus.. Think of that vile Textus Receptus leaning entirely on late MSS.; it is a blessing there are such early ones" (Hort, Arthur Fenton, Life and letters of Fenton John Anthony Hort, Vol. I, p.211).

Also notice how little these "scholars" read Greek.

__________________
Gil Garcia
Rehoboth Reformed Church (RCUS)
La Habra, CA

"Ignorance of this distinction between Law and Gospel is one of the principal sources of the abuses which corrupted and still corrupt Christianity." - Calvin's successor


"By the words of the law man is admonished and taught, not what he can do, but what he ought to do. How is it that you theologians are twice as stupid as schoolboys, in that as soon as you get hold of a single imperative verb you infer an indicative meaning...?"
-Martin Luther, The Bondage of the Will

THREAD CLOSED.


If you want to listen to the link, please do. But this thread is done. It's really sad that even after warnings, people can't play nice.