I've been reading the "Question for the confessional KJVer" thread and I have a question. There seems to be a wide spread opinion that because the English language appears to be "deteriorating" that we as Christians should cling to the majestic language of the KJV. So to my question: Would you tell a modern day Greek person that because his language has obviously deteriorated from the original Greek of the NT that he should read the original Greek NT instead of an updated Greek version?

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Mark Maney
Kwanglim Korean Methodist Church - 1689'er Baptist Pastor (read profile for more info)
Master of Theological Studies emphasis Biblical Studies
Trinity Western University, ACTS Seminaries
Surrey, BC. (Vancouver), Canada

Hello Mark,

The Biblical Greek is so ancient a tongue that very few Greek-speakers can understand it, whether in writing or spoken. Greek evangelicals, who treasure their Scriptures, usually read one of the Bambas (pronounced Vamvas) versions, one older, somewhat equivalent to the KJV language, and one newer, equivalent to the NKJV. Both are very popular here in Cyprus. My wife reads the newer version when she reads to her grandmother (and used to for her mom, but doesn't now, as her mom's Alzheimer's has progressed too far).

As I have said, I would welcome an updated AV, if it was done faithfully, and still captured the majesty of the language.

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Steve Rafalsky
Elder, International Evangelical Church (Reformed)
Limassol, Cyprus

"I am set for the defense of the gospel" (Philippians 1:17)

"Strengthened with all might, according to His glorious
power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness..." (Colossians 1:11)

So would you say that if KJV english came to be too hard for English speakers that you would recommend a newer translation?

I am asking this because my youth have a hard enough time understanding the NIV. They either have to read the NLT or Message to even get anything out of there Bibles besides confusion when on their own. The KJV might as well be written in Russian. The parents aren't much help because they do not know English very well and the kids don't know Korean very well, or if they do they don't know Korean theological/Biblical language thus it is up to me the pastor to guide them in their readings, but I can't be there every time one of my kids wants to read the Bible.

Maybe most of the people don't see it on this board because they have always grown up around the KJV or are older than 30 years old but I'm telling you, this upcoming generation (and this just isn't my Korean youth, it was in the Chinese church I was in before and it is in the Western churches as well) CAN NOT understand the KJV. Unless you are brought up on it, the KJV will be entirely unaccessible due to its archaic language.

And yes, I am sure there are 1 or 2 exceptions (maybe more) on this board where someone never touched a KJV in their life but started reading it last year and are only 20 and can understand it perfectly because they are geniuses but I assure you, you are not the norm!

Anyway, that is just my little rant. I'm probably a little more touchy on this subject because if I were to follow the logic of many on this board no one in my congregation would be able to read the Bible.

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Mark Maney
Kwanglim Korean Methodist Church - 1689'er Baptist Pastor (read profile for more info)
Master of Theological Studies emphasis Biblical Studies
Trinity Western University, ACTS Seminaries
Surrey, BC. (Vancouver), Canada

Mark,

If your congregation is Korean, do you have a version in that language they can also use, to help with the English, at least for those who have some proficiency in Korean?

There are two issues: first, if you give them the NIV or TEV or either the old or new Living Translation, they will come across the margin notes indicating the "oldest and most reliable" manuscripts don't have this or that, right away introducing them to the confusion extant in modern versions and criticism. I suppose there is no avoiding it — even in Africa, in a remote area — I had students coming to me asking me about the margin notes and/or absence of certain verses in their versions (the class had been issued ESVs before I arrived). It is a Pandora's Box that has been opened, and must be dealt with. I was forced (by these circumstances) to teach a class on the field of textual criticism today, and concerning reliable Bibles.

I use the KJV because there is no other version near as accurate; Jay Green's Modern King James Version I am not absolutely sure about. I am using it more now to examine it. The NKJV is far and away better than the modern versions, but it has its faults. So there is no sure replacement at this point.

I relate to you having folks whose first language is not English. You have three choices, it seems to me: either go with a modern version and suffer the doubt you will introduce into their minds by giving them Bibles with omissions and destructive notes; or use the NKJV or MKJV (there are editions of the former without the textual notes -- which notes I happen to like, but not all do), although the language of either is a bit more complex than the older KJV; or 3), use the KJV and educate them to the language of the church. If you taught Shakespeare you would teach them an older English as well as the newer. It is really not so tough.

I teach my folks (African, Hungarian, Romanian, Filipino, Greek — the Arabic congregation is a different ball-game) English (along with Bible) from the NKJV and the AV.

I try to make it vitally interesting to them: through the words/promises of God's Book, we actually draw near to Him who is the Lord of Glory, and we receive the gift of His amazing wisdom and insight, and abide in His love.

Hope this helps.

-----

Nigel,

I would be interested in taking a look at what you have done with John's Gospel. And I would give you comments on that.

Steve

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Steve Rafalsky
Elder, International Evangelical Church (Reformed)
Limassol, Cyprus

"I am set for the defense of the gospel" (Philippians 1:17)

"Strengthened with all might, according to His glorious
power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness..." (Colossians 1:11)

Mark,

As I'm sure you are aware, there are two issues involved in this, and it is often hard to distinguish the emphasis of arguments because everything is intertwined together.

When the Southern Convocation approved the translation update for the Authorized Version back in the late 19th century, they set down certain rules. Wescott and Hort brought forward that work but upon an entirely different Greek text in contradiction to the rules - so this is passed off as an update to the translation, when it is really the introduction of an entirely different text and hypothesis. In turn, various textual hypothesis and critical opinions have erupted into a debate in the public life of the Church.

Unfortunately, this is just the way we have to deal with this today. Translation after Translation has concealed within its pages an evolving and hypothetical textual standard, and as Elder Rafalsky noted, they introduce issues to the weak that can be very damaging. There is a certain lack of pastoral concern and shepherding in the introduction of this debate into the public life of the Church that I find quite disturbing. With the tender minds under your care, I do think you need to be sensitive to these issues within finding a solution to deal with the very real problems you are facing.

There is, however, inherit within this Protestant Bible both a theological and sociological issue as a unitary foundation for both theology and society as it affects those in English common law countries that I place considerable weight upon as it doesn't exist in an isolated ecclesiastical context.

I am not so dogmatic that I do not recognize the educational problems of our modern youth and the disabilities they are suffering, though, and willingly concede leeway in teaching and private studies upon other versions; in contrast I'm very dogmatic on the public use of the Authorized Version. And I'm very concerned about the Apostolic witness of the Church and it's public confession of faith both confessionally and legally. But that is not say that liberty of conscience no longer exists where effective tools can not be used to build up the Kingdom of God.

I say this just to address some of your comments, because if you are reading me, it is important to distinguish my emphasis on the peace, purity and good order of Christ's Church in an expansive sense that I argue within a defense of the Authorized Version as the established Bible; hence, that should not be interpreted to mean that I am not sensitive to the real issues that you are bringing up.

Cordially In Christ,

Thomas

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Thomas Weddle
Member, Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church
Evansville, Indiana

Hey Steve, Nigel, and Thomas

Steve first:

There is a Korean translation, and most of them do have parallel Bibles, but would not the Korean suffer the same criticisms you give to the modern texts? All major foreign translations that I am familiar with use today's critical text, not the texts underlying the KJV.

But even if this were not the case, the problem is that the theological/biblical language, names, places, etc. are different than in the English. These terms don't translate the same from the Greek and Hebrew into Korean as they do into English and thus make the Korean translations useless to them due to the fact that my preaching and the Sunday school teaching is all done using English terms. I guess they could do the grunt work and just read both passages all the time but Youth don't usually like doing that much work. It makes reading the Bible more like homework from Korean school then an edifying experience of reading the Bible. Also, for many of them, their reading of Korean is not very good. I even have better reading skills then some of them (and I am improving everyday)!

I really don't think the textual data at the bottom of the page really affects them (if they even read it). When I was a youth and knew nothing about textual debates the data that there were older manuscripts, etc. didn't affect me. I would think "ok, that makes sense". Because none of these kids have grown up on the KJV they don't really know that English Bibles read a bit differently in the past anyway! In the 7 years I have been teaching youth I have never been questioned on the footnotes on the bottom. I have taught about textual criticism and stuff, but this only reinforced their faith in the text.

Also, given that I am not convinced that the KJV texts are better I do not view the footnotes as a bad thing.

Most of my kids are basically fluent in English, that's why they come to English service instead of the Korean service, they just have a really hard time reading the Bible in the more formal and older translations. I don't blame them!

----
Nigel

While I think your project is a worthwhile one, especially for those who follow your textual views, I doubt it would ever catch on. Even if a whole group of scholars did a whole new translation using the KJV textual data, I am sure almost everyone on this board and elsewhere would pan it as being inferior to the KJV. That's just the mindset.

I do know Greek and Hebrew to a good enough degree so as to translate the Biblical text as a whole, but given the above reason, and the fact that I am still not convinced of KJV underlying text superiority, I find it hard to desire to be a part of such a project!

But I will say this: I am always in awe of those who take the time to actually translate the whole of Scripture into another language. I applaud you and Larry.

----

Thomas

I appreciated your post. I don't have much to say beyond what I said to Steve.

I want my kids to read the Bible. If I were to insist on using the KJV all Bible reading would disappear. That's just the reality of it. Like Steve said, modern Greek is so much removed from NT Greek that an update is needed, well I offer to you this: The English in the KJV has finally reached the point where it is nonsensical to those under the age of 20 who have not been brought up in it or have not had extensive training in the English of the time. That's just the reality.

If the underlying text of the KJV is really that important then I think it is about time all the churches who think this pony up the cash and get a bunch of scholars together and do a whole new translation. But alas, like I said before, I highly doubt that it would ever be accepted. I think there are other issues at play on this issue beyond textual data.

Again, I apologize for the rant. It just pains me as a pastor to hear kids say that their Bible is just too complicated and the English to confusing to understand. As someone coming from the Protestant tradition, hearing that the Bible is too hard to understand and comprehend breaks my heart, especially when that need not be the case.

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Mark Maney
Kwanglim Korean Methodist Church - 1689'er Baptist Pastor (read profile for more info)
Master of Theological Studies emphasis Biblical Studies
Trinity Western University, ACTS Seminaries
Surrey, BC. (Vancouver), Canada

Which KJV translation is based on the TR? The Reformers and the Puritans had the Geneva Bible. Was the Geneva Bible based on the TR?

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Stephen Welch
PCA Teaching Elder
Nova Scotia :cheers:

The majority of churches, whether we're talking Reformed or more broadly evangelical, favor the Critical Text, and not the TR or Majority/Byzantine text. (That's not to say they're necessarily right.) Those who do favor the TR or Byzantine text use either the KJV or NKJV.

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Chris Poe
Mandeville, LA

"There are the foolish fanatics always to be found in such a movement and always discrediting it--the lunatic fringe in all reform movements." Theodore Roosevelt

Are these recent immigrants, or people for whom English is a second language and who struggle to read the newspaper or other similar writings?

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Chris Poe
Mandeville, LA

"There are the foolish fanatics always to be found in such a movement and always discrediting it--the lunatic fringe in all reform movements." Theodore Roosevelt

Hello Mark,

Thank you for the response, a few concepts and points for your consideration. These may, on the surface, not seem to be critical points to you from the frame of reference and real problems you are explaining and facing. I do, though, think they are significant and need to at least be given some consideration.

The problem you are identifying is not merely a "natural" condition, it is a created condition, it is the results of our society as a whole revolting against the Reformation and the expansive meaning of it, especially the Authority of Scripture. It is no longer received in the fully orbed Reformational sense and in many ways we are squelching the Holy Spirit and this affects its perspicuity.

Because the problem, I believe is in fact, a spiritual problem existing as both psychological and sociological in this context, it doesn't disappear, nor is it cured, with the introduction of new translation alone - upon proper textual grounds or not. In many ways the Church has become what I might define as "mystical" in its conception of translation, as if it comes to us independent of a cultural context. That all we have to do is introduce Holy Scripture in language that people can "understand" and miraculously each person is going to be put, ipso facto, on the high ground of spiritual growth.

Now, please understand, that is not to be interpreted as diminishing the work of your ministry, it is to point out that a lot of continuity and profound theological and sociological links to Confessional Reformed theology comes "prepackaged", that the Holy Spirit has born consistent witness to in history, with the Authorized Version. Battles against spiritual wickedness were fought, ground was won, that we don't have to refight - we can receive the blessings of that, or we can reject it. There are issues here that are much deeper than I think you presently comprehend, and it really doesn't matter what one's opinions are about the text, Providence has born witness to the work of the Holy Spirit in history and "by their fruits ye shall know them."

Text critical proponents seem to believe that if they can restore what they believe to be the inerrancy of Scripture that we are going to experience an evangelistic explosion since we will then finally have it in its pristine perfection, as if the Holy Spirit must utilize Scripture is some non-material "spiritualized" way that the perceived lack of perfection is what is squelching His work in history. In contrast, I believe the Kingdom of God is not in word, but in power, (1 Cor 4:20) and Providence through the work of the Holy Spirit bears witness of the Truth and Substance of His Word by both advancing the Faith, on one hand, and binding spiritual wickedness on the other.

In my view the modern Church has this inversed and believes the Kingdom is in word, not in power, or if in power in some non-material "spiritualized" definition and in turn it has abandoned all of the work of Providence in Reformational history and while it speaks of the truth of Scripture, it is no longer willing to receive the expansive substance of it, in reality. This is important, because this textual and translation issue has in fact, I believe, exercised the keys to the Kingdom, unbinding what four centuries of Christians worked to bind, and have swung the gates of hell wide open.

The problem that you are laying out is not merely a language problem, it is also a dialetical problem that imputes a truncated spiritual condition upon modern people whereby they are unable to connect to Scripture as Authority because of the spiritual and cultural context in which they live. Linguistical solutions are just a bandaid upon a much deeper infection and not as broad and absolute as you are portraying their potentiality. We have a hundred years now of easier to read translations that simply don't have the fruit.

The Church is not innocent in this because it has withdrawn its recognition of Scripture in its establishment which included the Protestant doctrine of Scripture whereby the Scripture served as a prolegomenon to theology and society at large. There is an imputed spiritual deficiency, not merely a linguistic deficiency, embodied in this whole issue as well whereby the external testimony of Scripture and the internal witness of the Holy Spirit are spiritually skewed and never fully connecting.

Of course, this is much bigger issue and much more complicated issue that I have time to even get into here, at depth, but the concept that: "The English in the KJV has finally reached the point where it is nonsensical to those under the age of 20 who have not been brought up in it or have not had extensive training in the English of the time. That's just the reality," is not the end of the story, it's just not that simple. It's more analogous to a spiritualized Babel, where the people themselves have finally reached a point of squelching the Holy Spirit that he is giving us up to our sins, and the sins of the fathers are being imputed unto the children.

Consider, for a moment, that every new translation that comes out is still, after a century, trying to supplant the Authorized Version - and that is how they are advertised. Finally, this greatness has been reproduced in language you can now understand, but that superiority is never supplanted, because the next one tries again. And when you look at the evolution of the critical texts, they keep adding back in received readings that they knew were defections in the prior version.

There is a spiritual battle going on here that is affecting your children, it is not merely linguistics, while certainly there is some validity to your points, they are just not absolute as you portrayed them, nor is the solution a new translation of the right texts.

In Christ's Bonds,

Thomas

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Thomas Weddle
Member, Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church
Evansville, Indiana

A response to those who advocate ‘modern’ English versions on the grounds that English speaking youth have been poorly educated.

This is not a response to those who advocate ‘modern’ English versions on the grounds that the Elizabethan English of the KJV is indeed a ‘foreign’ language. (I don’t believe it is, but that is a different debate.)

There was a time when the literacy rate of the US was much higher than it is today.

Gatto goes on to say that during WWII 18 million American men were given “low-level” academic tests before induction into military service. It was found that among those 18 million, 96 % of them “were judged to have the minimum competence in reading required to be a soldier.” Six years later, during the Korean War, that literacy rate had dropped to 81%, “Even though all that was needed to classify a soldier as literate was fourth-grade reading proficiency.” By the end of the Vietnam War, in 1973, the literacy rate had dropped to 73%.

Plummeting literacy rates in the US coincide with the rise of compulsory state education in the 20th century. In the previous century, children were by and large homeschooled by parents whose goal was to teach their children to read the KJV. Just look at the popularity of the “Blue Back Speller” and the “New England Primer”, the latter of which remained in print even into the 20th century. Both of these textbooks taught the English of the KJV.

Ever since the American people have abdicated the education of their youth to the pagan state literacy rates have fallen to the point that a real crisis has developed.

In 2004, a joint task force of professors from both the University of California and the California State University systems issued a report. It was titled “Academic Literacy: A Statement of Competencies Expected of Students Entering California’s Public Colleges and Universities.”
The report reflected CA university professors answers to three main questions:

Here is a brief list of recommendations contained in the report:

This is in spite of the fact that in 1996 the California Education Round Table issued a set of standards that required these expectations for incoming university students.

In other words, the standards placed on public schools were not working. The report says that only “33% of the students are prepared to analyze information or arguments based on their reading.” (pg. 17) “83% of the surveyed faculty say that the lack of analytical reading skills contributes to students’ lack of success in a course.” (pg. 18)

The report points to three things that contribute to this underpreparation:

What we see in American history, I believe, is a pattern. As we lower expectations for literacy, we lower the literacy rate itself. There is an axiom among teachers that lower standards means lower achievement. (Just look at the CA High School Exit Exam) There was a time in our country when the expectation was that a young person would/should/needed to read the KJV. That was a time when the literacy rate was the highest. As we have more and more removed the KJV as the ‘standard’ for literacy, our literacy rate has continued to fall.
So before we go altruistically advocating ‘modern’ English versions of the Bible because American youth can’t read ‘good’, let us stop and think about what would benefit them more? A continued lowering of expectations, or a new commitment to the KJV?

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What makes KJV English so "good"? Because it's old? Because it was written at a key formative time in the history of the English language? Because it has been used for 400 years? Because it is in a Bible that has been used for 400 years? Because the confession uses it? Because it "sounds" Biblical? Because it doesn't have the perceived pitfalls of today's English?

None of these are good reasons to keep KJV English when it no longer can be understood by the everyday person.

My kids aren't stupid, and they don't suffer because of a poor education system. I pastor in a more affluent church and many of these kids go to private schools. And unlike the States, Canadian public schools are actually quite good. The problem is not their English skills (though, there are also many kids whose first language is not English). The problem is that they have been trained and speak in an English of a different time and and place.

I can read Hebrew, Greek, French, and Korean, I have an undergraduate degree in the Arts (Religion and Theology, minor in History) and I am in a Thesis based Master's degree. I have quite a firm and learned background in languages and English. But even after all this I still have difficulty reading the KJV! So how much more will those who are younger than me (24) and don't have any real training in languages or theological/biblical studies have difficulty with the English of the KJV?

You can rant and rave all you want about how depraved society is and how pathetic the English language has become, but that doesn't change the fact that society is depraved and the English language has changed. There is no going back.

Should Spanish people read translations done in the 17th century? Chinese people? Russians? How utterly meaningless does a translation have to be before it is acknowledged that it needs to be updated?

* Ken, I would argue that the English of the KJV is not any better than the English of today, just different. Thus, literacy will not be improved by reading a Bible that uses different English than the English used today. Rather, literacy will be improved by reading a Bible that uses the best form of contemporary English.

If the NT had been written in Classical Greek instead of Koine Greek, it would have made very little sense, or at least it would have been made more difficult to a majority of people. And yet, all the same arguments that are being used to support KJV English could have been used back in NT times to support a Classical Greek NT. Rather, the NT writers saw the necessity of writing the most important of documents in the common everyday language of the people, not the language of the Golden Age of Greece.

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Mark Maney
Kwanglim Korean Methodist Church - 1689'er Baptist Pastor (read profile for more info)
Master of Theological Studies emphasis Biblical Studies
Trinity Western University, ACTS Seminaries
Surrey, BC. (Vancouver), Canada

This is where it appears to me you are creating a false scenario. There is no "deterioration" or "difference" in English today. As one who knows various languages you should understand that the meanings of words are bound by specific contexts. As a Bible reader you should recognise the fact that the ideas presented in the Bible are not the types of ideas which are readily discussed in everyday conversation. The Scriptures present numerous contexts which are vague and unfamiliar to the ordinary man of the 21st century. It is no wonder, then, if the Scriptures employ numerous expressions which are somewhat alien to the modern reader. The answer is not to be found in altering the message of Scripture to suit the mind of modern man, but in the modern man studying the Scripture to come to a better knowledge of what it is God has so graciously condescended to reveal in His Word.

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Yours sincerely,


"Illum oportet crescere me autem minui."

Point taken and I agree.

I agree with what you say here as well. The Scriptures do employ many concepts that are indeed foreign to the 21st century mind. But why should I convey and translate these 2000 year and older concepts into 17th century English instead of 21st century English? Especially when my kids do not understand 17th century English but understand 21st century English?

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Mark Maney
Kwanglim Korean Methodist Church - 1689'er Baptist Pastor (read profile for more info)
Master of Theological Studies emphasis Biblical Studies
Trinity Western University, ACTS Seminaries
Surrey, BC. (Vancouver), Canada

The point which seems to be assumed is that the AV is written in 17th century English. The language of the AV was not the English of the 17th or any century. The language of any "version" of the Bible which seeks to be even remotely accurate will be foreign to the 21st century English reader.

Why use the AV? For the same reason that different communal groups of the 1st century used the "strange" Greek version of the Old Testament. It was universally received and read. This meant that people of various contexts could share in a single language which they all held in common, notwithstanding the fact that the language itself was a little strange to all cultures.

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Yours sincerely,


"Illum oportet crescere me autem minui."

The English of the KJV was such that anyone who was literate in the 17th century would be able to understand and comprehend what it was saying. Maybe the concepts and such would be foreign, but the text would be understandable. The text of the KJV is no longer understandable or comprehendable to today's younger generation. So not only are the concepts foreign, the language in which they are being conveyed is foreign.

And eventually, when the LXX became incomprehensible to people it was either updated or translated into another language.

There seems to be an assumption on your part that the KJV is the universally received and read Bible in the English world. Maybe this was the case when you were younger and for your generation but that is definitely not the case now. The translation that would meet that requirement today would be the NIV---->TNIV. Furthermore, the English in the KJV unites no one in today's generation of English speakers. It may unite the older generations, and it may unite certain wings of the Reformed community and KJV Onlyists, but that's about it.

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Mark Maney
Kwanglim Korean Methodist Church - 1689'er Baptist Pastor (read profile for more info)
Master of Theological Studies emphasis Biblical Studies
Trinity Western University, ACTS Seminaries
Surrey, BC. (Vancouver), Canada