The Biblia Hebraica Quinta is due to be completed in 2015.

I haven't heard anything about production of NA-28, but i know Wieland Willker has made suggestions for both textual and apparatus changes to that edition.

I wonder if ESV and NASB will hold off on any updated versions until these come out.

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Probably.

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I suppose it doesn't matter, if you're a KJV only type. ;-)

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The ESV revision is due early next year, I believe.

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If anyone has any links regarding the ESV revision please post them. I am quite anxious to see what kind of changes they made.

I am hoping that the 1 Sam 13:1 passage will be revised, it makes for a strange public reading...

Saul was...years old when he began to reign, and he reigned... and two years over Israel.

If that's true, no reason to buy one now.

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One Pilgrims Progress

That is the oddest thing I think I've ever seen in a translation of any kind, that wasn't some fragmentary Sumerian inscription or Qumran flake, or the like. What is that doing in an otherwise reliable translation of the Scriptures? That is the best they could do to make that place readable?

I am looking at the electronic version, after all. What do the print versions say? Same garble?

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Yes, the print versions have the same "..." reading.
It's really bad if it catches you by suprise while reading aloud.

The Notes:

NASB:
Saul was forty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned thirty-two years over Israel. (italics in original)

NIV:
Saul was thirty {1 A few late manuscripts of the Septuagint; Hebrew does not have thirty.} years old when he became king, and he reigned over Israel forty-{1 See the round number in Acts 13:21; Hebrew does not have forty-.}two years.

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Evidently the Hebrew is difficult here and scholars aren't too sure what to make of it. According to the NIV text note, a few late copies of the Septuagint say Saul was 30 years old.

I suppose most of you don't have a copy of the RSV, but I still have my New Oxford Annotated Bible I acquired years ago from taking a NT class at a liberal college. Remember that the ESV is basically a light revision of the RSV with the theological problems and liberal bias fixed. Quite often, whenever I find an idiosyncratic rendering in the ESV (meaning one a bit different from other versions) I find that it is a rendering carried forward from the RSV, and that is the case here at 1 Sam 13:1. Not knowing the original languages, I don't know whether it is more accurate than other versions or not in these places, which is one reason why I've never switched to the ESV.

NASB 95 has: "Saul was thirty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned forty two years over Israel." (italics in original).

KJV/NKJV: Saul reigned one year; and when he had reigned two years over Israel,

NKJV footnote: "The Hebrew is difficult (compare 2 Samuel 5:4; 2 Kings 14:2; see also 2 Samuel 2:10; Acts 13:21)."

The NASB 95 is based on NA-26.

Which means it's already a generation behind the ESV which uses NA-27 and UBS-4.

The ESV also uses a different Hebrew text - Hebraica Stuttgartensia.

There are far fewer variants between Hebrew mss than Greek. The Masoretes, et al, were much more careful with copying than the many who copied the Greek mss.

That's why the Hebrew texts are generally Diplomatic Editions as opposed to Eclectic Editions as we find in the NT texts.

And it doesn't really speak to the fact that the NASB and ESV do use different underlying texts for both the OT and NT.

If the NASB doesn't plan to have a revision after the next generation of texts it may go by the way-side.

[Edited on 6-16-2006 by larryjf]

Actually, I think it does speak to the issue. Fewer variants in Hebrew mean fewer variants in English. Be that as it may, NASB is absolutely of no value whatsoever from the pulpit IMO. It has its uses in translation for study, but its overly wooden style doomed it as a popular English version.

Does that mean that you think there are few variants in the ESV OT and the NASB OT?

That really has more to do than with just the Hebrew text as the translators are different as well. For instance many times the NASB translates the Hebrew "ach" as "countryman" whereas the ESV translates it as "brother" (Lev 19:17, 25:25; Deut 1:16, 17:15, etc.)

I find it hard to believe that if the NASB gets to be a couple of generations behind in thier underlying texts that they will stay a viable translation at all.

It's not a viable translation anyhow, so I guess the question is moot.

agreed

NASB

Given the translational variants, even without studying the Hebrew, I could pretty well piece together why the ESV was rendered as it was. (But thank you Fred for posting the material.) Still, putting "..." into a translation seems like the strangest way to present the material. It is completely unreadable. How would you read that section in the public reading of Scripture?

{opinion on} I kind of lean toward the idea that is bit irresponsible of them. Even if the KJV/NKJV are in error, they are readable, even if difficult. Sorry, elipses indicate "something is missing here," not "we're unsure of the text here." That is irresponsible. I even prefer a NIV LXX (late) insertion over elipses. Those elipses represent to me a philosophy (or a theology) of transmission I cannot accept. {opinion off}

I have seen several preachers, including my current pastor, preach quite effectively using the NASB. It is certainly better than the dumbed down NIV where the pastor has to, almost on a weekly basis, point out poor renderings.

[Edited on 6-16-2006 by Pilgrim]

Is that true? I thought all modern translations, including NASB, NIV, RSV/ESV and NKJV basically used the same Hebrew text.

[Edited on 6-16-2006 by Pilgrim]

I seriously doubt we'll see the NASB challenge the KJV's numbers again, but I think the recent release of the very popular MacArthur Study Bible in the NASB will give it a boost.

The ESV's popularity up until now overwhelmingly seems to be in Reformed or at least Reformed-leaning circles, with most evangelicals appearing to opt for the NKJV or NIV.

[Edited on 6-16-2006 by Pilgrim]

Especially when the ESV is supposed to be equally useful for public reading as for private study.

Besides, no translation conforms exactly with the choices found in NA-26, NA-27, or whatever. The committee of whatever translation makes their own choices, which sometimes diverges from NA/UBS.

Define the terms "dumb down" and "poor renderings" and then I will disagree with you.

Let me ask you this, let's suppose the Bible were originally written in Spanish and the following proverb were in it:

Barco va, barco viene.

How should it be translated? The NASB would read, "The ship comes, the ship goes." It would be a correct rendering in that it literally translated the words. But what does it mean?

The NIV might read, "Easy come, easy go." This also is a correct rendering in that it gets at the heart of the what the proverb means.

In the former case, the preacher would have to explain what the wooden translation meant in English. In the latter, the preacher might have to explain what lay under the more dynamic translation.

ALL TRANSLATION INVOLVES INTERPRETATION. There is no such thing as a translation that is free from it. Paul used the LXX and called it Scripture even though it is often wildly paraphrastic in places. Did he spend time pointing out "poor renderings?" No, he called it the Word of God and preached it. I think we could probably learn something from his example. Far too many preachers use the pulpit to showcase their educations and at the same time subtly undermine people's confidence in their English Bibles.

Finally, I would say that the average pastor is probably not qualfied to make such pronoucements as a general rule. Most pastors have had a few semesters of Greek and Hebrew and never touch it again after seminary (though there are exceptions!) The men doing these translations have devoted their lives to the study of Greek and Hebrew. Admittedly, they can be beholden to certain ideologies, etc. but for the most part they do good work.

Of course all translation involves interpretation. My point was about the NASB and it being "absolutely of no value" in the pulpit. Many have agreed that the NASB is not suited to public reading, but many others have used it quite effectively from the pulpit for years, (although I would imagine most would agree it's better in the study than for public reading) and since we're talking about opinions I'd much rather have a minister preach from the NASB than NIV.

The NKJV reads more smoothly than the NASB and is probably a better all purpose translation. It is also a bit better suited to private study than is the ESV, (although the ESV cross references are better and are arguably better than the NASB's).

Those who cannot recommend the NKJV to someone as their primary Bible due to the textual issue IMO are no better than TR/KJV Only people. To defend the CT on the basis that no doctrines are changed, etc. and then to turn right around and say the NKJV is unsuitable because of the textual issue is nonsense, IMO.

As an avid CT proponent, I have to tell you I would never argue based on the fact that no doctrines are changed. I would argue that the text is superior and why. In the end, no doctrines are affected, so if you choose to use the NKJV, you'll probably make it to heaven. Probably.

:bigsmile:

The NASB 77 used NA-23. We shouldn't expect a revision every time a new edition of the Greek and or Hebrew critical text is issued, and there is no translation I know of that follows the CT to a "t" anyway, and you'll find that they deviate from it in a number of places, for a number of reasons. This ESV revision (if the reports are true) coming out next year has nothing to do with updates to the text but I think is largely due to various recommendations for changes, etc.

The MacArthur Study Bible on 1 Sam 13:1:

NIV Spirit of the Reformation Study Bible:
[Edited on 6-17-2006 by Pilgrim]

That, and bad timing. The NASB (entire Bible) was published in 1973, I believe. Just 5 years later (1978), the NIV juggernaut began (it became the first English translation to outsell the KJV). Five years is not a long time for a Bible translation to build market share, so the NASB never had a chance. Plus, as you say, it's ridiculously wooden style.

Ironically, the NASB received a second life - people used it as a "check" on the NIV.

Then, the NASB came out with its updated edition; doomed again - the ESV appeared. The NASB just can't catch a break...

By the way, about a year ago, I bought, in a used book store, a copy of the ASV of 1901 - published by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society! Go figure! (It's not a study Bible - just the text). Paid only about $2 for it. I wanted one just because the ASV is so hard to find anymore, and it was an admired translation in its day, I believe.

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I hope you folks will let a King James Version lover put his two cents in here. I want to draw attention to the ESV’s rendering of Matthew 1:7, 10, putting Asaph in place of Asa and Amos instead of Amon in these verses. While almost all the modern versions have marginal notes saying “the Greek reads Asaph….and Amon” only the ESV, its older sister the NRSV, and the Catholic NAB had the nerve to render it so in the translation. What’s up with this? Below I excerpt a passage I posted in another thread going into some detail in the matter. The implications of this reading are serious. Sorry that it’s a little long….maybe I should have said my 15¢!

-------------------------

In the book Dr. Theodore Letis edited (and contributed to), The Majority Text: Essays and Reviews in the Continuing Debate, James A. Borland has an essay, “Re-Examining New Testament Textual-Critical Principles and Practices Used to Negate Inerrancy” [reprinted from the Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society; Vol. 25, No. 4 (December 1982), by permission]. In this essay Borland shows how that one thrust of TC practice is indeed used to negate the inerrancy of the apostles’ original writings; in other words, the apostles were in error in the things they wrote. I quote the opening paragraph of the essay:

<blockquote>Perhaps it is not shocking to assert that Satan uses every means at his disposal to attack the credibility, reliability and authority of God’s Word. He began the assault in the garden with Eve and has not stopped yet. But often his ways are more subtle than the blatant lie succumbed to by Eve. We live in a modern era of sophistication. Even in Biblical and textual studies we hear more and more about the use of computers and other highly technical tools. And Satan is more than willing to accommodate our sophistication in the area of textual criticism. Especially is this so when it occasionally allows men to assert fallibility in the New Testament autographs based on widely accepted principles and practice of textual criticism.</blockquote>

He briefly surveys the established tenets of NT text critical theory, and then in particular Dr. Hort’s, which postulates the “primacy of the two earliest uncial MSS, Aleph (Sinaiticus) and B (Vaticanus), which date from the middle of the fourth century A.D. These two MSS were given the question-begging designation of being the ‘neutral text.’” He continues,

<blockquote>In short, the resultant practice of these new sophisticated principles was to overturn completely the textual critical practices of the past. Since the majority Byzantine text was judged to be a later text, the supposedly more ancient, more pure “neutral text” was substituted at the junctures of innumerable variants…

In referring to the Westcott and Hort theory, George Ladd approvingly writes, “The basic solution to the textual problem has been almost universally accepted.” He goes on to assert that “it is a seldom disputed fact that critical science has to all intents and purposes recovered the original text of the New Testament.” Ladd believes that “in the search for a good text, piety and devotion can never take the place of knowledge and scholarly judgment.” [the quotes are from Ladd’s book, The New Testament and Criticism (Eerdmans 1967) In a footnote Borland quotes Gordon Fee in the same vein saying, “Fee is equally bold in asserting that ‘the task of NT textual criticism is virtually completed’” (in “Modern Textual Criticism and the revival of the Textus Receptus,” JETS 21, 1978, 19-33).] Yet it is precisely this “almost universally accepted” “knowledge and scholarly judgment” that if followed too often leads to the conclusion that the very autographs of Scripture recorded errors and blunders.</blockquote>

He then considers more deeply Westcott and Hort’s rules of external evidence regarding the manuscripts (by which they were able to dispose of the testimony of the majority of manuscripts), and then their rules of internal evidence, which came to the forefront after their external rules had gotten rid of the MT. Borland goes on,

<blockquote>Naturally each of these canons [of internal evidence] to a large degree must be subjectively applied. When a decision is difficult in the area of the internal evidence of readings, scholars often resort to the old circular reasoning that “certain MSS tend to support the ‘original’ text more than others and that those MSS are the early Alexandrian. Therefore, when internal evidence cannot decide,” Gordon Fee advises, “the safest guide is to go with the ‘best’ MSS.” [Fee, “Textual Criticism of the New Testament,” Expositor’s Bible Commentary, p. 431] Thus all too often external evidence is the last resort, and when it is appealed to, the results have already been determined by a preconception of which MSS are the “best.”….[L]et us examine several examples of this prevalent textual-critical method—which ultimately asserts that the autographs did indeed contain incontrovertible mistakes.

In other words, the prevalent textual methodology can be and is being used to deny the inerrancy of the original autographs.

Nearly a century ago George Salmon astutely observed that Westcott and Hort had attributed to the gospel writers “erroneous statements which their predecessors had regarded as copyists’ blunders.” Salmon noted that “there was indeed but little rhetorical exaggeration in the statement that the canon of these editors was that Codex B was infallible and that the Evangelists were not. Nay, it seemed as if Hort regarded it as a note of genuineness if a reading implies error on the part of the sacred writer.” [G. Salmon, Some Thoughts on the Textual Criticism of the New Testament (London: John Murray, 1897)]

I. The Case of Asa and Amon

One example of current import is found in the readings of Matthew 1:7, 10. These texts contain part of the kingly genealogy of Christ. Many conservative commentators seem almost oblivious to the problem [and in a footnote he lists a number]. But scholars who do not adhere to the doctrine of inerrancy do not pass up a chance to point out what they consider to be a fallacy in Matthew’s autograph. The majority of all MSS read Asa (Asa; v. 7) and Amon (Amon; v. 10), easily recognized as two kings of Judah who were ancestors of Christ. Matthew’s point is to demonstrate our Lord’s royal lineage. But the United Bible Societies’ text instead chooses alternate readings based on the “better” manuscripts as well as some very subjective internal considerations. They substitute for the kings Asa and Amon the names “Asaph” and “Amos,” a psalmist and prophet respectively. They reason that “the evangelist may have derived material for the genealogy, not from the Old Testament directly, but from subsequent genealogical lists, in which the erroneous spelling occurred.” [B.M. Metzger, et al., A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament (NY: United Bible Societies, 1971), p.1] Prior to that confident assertion, Bruce Metzger and others, claimed that “most scholars are impressed by the overwhelming weight of textual evidence supporting Asaph.” [Ibid.]

What is the composition of this “overwhelming weight of textual evidence” in favor of the Asaph blunder? Heading the list are the fourth and fifth century codices, Aleph B and C. Next come the minuscules of families 1 and 13 and two eleventh- and twelfth-century cursives, 700 and 1071, followed by fourteenth-century manuscript 209. Among the versions are several Old Latin MSS (notably k, Bobiensis, a fourth or fifth century production), along with others of the seventh century and beyond. The Coptic, following the basic Egyptian text of Aleph and B, agrees; and the Armenian, Ethiopic and Georgian translations, each perhaps related to Caesarean origins (of f1 and f13), indicate Asaph also. In the Harclean Syriac it merits only a listing in the margin. In summary, barely more than a dozen Greek MSS carry the Asaph reading, followed by a few Old Latin MSS, the Coptic and several minor versions.

On the other hand, the expected reading of Asa is found in literally hundreds of Greek witnesses beginning with uncials E K L M U V W G D and P. These MSS date from the fifth through the tenth centuries and no doubt represent a wide geographic distribution, including Washingtoniensis (the Freer Gospels of the fifth century) and Regius (L), which in Metzger’s opinion has a good type of text, “agreeing very frequently with codex Vaticanus.” [Metzger, The Text of the New Testament: Its Transmission, Corruption, and Restoration, 2nd ed. (NY: Oxford Univ. Press, 1968), p. 54] In addition, hundreds of cursives lend their support including numbers of those known “to exhibit a significant degree of independence from the so-called Byzantine manuscript tradition.” [Metzger, Textual Commentary, p. xvii] These would include 33 (the queen of the cursives and constant ally of Aleph and B) and other minuscules beginning with the ninth century. To this may be added the entire bulk of cursive manuscripts that must represent nearly every geographical point where Greek was studied and copied throughout the middle ages and demonstrates an unbroken continuity of evidence sorely lacking in the paucity of material supporting the Asaph reading.

The lectionaries too stand solidly behind Asa, as do a number of Old Latin MSS including the notable fourth-century Vercellensis. the entire Vulgate is another early and uniform witness to Asa—as are the Curetonian, Sinaitic, Peshitta, Harclean and Palestinian versions of the Syriac. To these may be added both Ephiphanius and Augustine of the first quarter of the fifth century. Only a preconceived notion as to which witnesses are best would cause anyone to deny that the truly “overwhelming weight of textual evidence” favors the traditional reading of Asa.

If such is the case, then Asaph should be viewed as an early scribal blunder injudiciously copied into (fortunately) only a handful of Greek MSS. The evidence for Amon versus Amos in Matthew 1:10 is somewhat similar. It is difficult to believe that Matthew, no doubt an educated literary Jewish writer, was incapable of distinguishing between the Hebrew 'ãsã' and 'ãsãp' or between the even more distinguishable ‘ãmôn and ‘ãmôs. Not only would he have known the names of Israel’s kings by memory, but he probably would have used the genealogy of 1 Chronicles 3:10-14 in securing the names he used.

Lest one thinks this all amounts to academic irrelevance, we should be aware that the Revised Standard Version places the prophet’s name Amos in the text of Matthew 1:10 with the note “other authorities read Amon.” The Catholic New American Bible (1970) reads Amos without explanation. The American Standard Version, the RSV and the New American Standard Bible each read Asa for Matthew 1:7 but append a note indicating that the Greek reads Asaph. But where does the reading for Asa come if not from the Greek? The ASV and NASB do the same for Amos in Matthew 1:10, and the Jerusalem Bible is similar. At the least, this nomenclature is certainly inconsistent with the usual way of introducing a textual variant. We might well believe that Matthew got his kings, prophets and psalmists a bit confused! (excerpted from pp. 46-52)</blockquote>

Thank you for bearing with this longish but significant portion of essay. He goes on with another example, but so as not to stretch my availing myself of the “fair use” policy of copyrighted material I will refrain.

If you will look at the lately much vaunted ESV, you will see that in Matthew 1 it reads both Asaph and Amos instead of the kings! It was in Letis’ audio sermon on the ESV that I learned it had been adapted from the old RSV; on the acknowledgment page it reads,

<blockquote>The Holy Bible, English Standard Version (ESV) is adapted from the Revised Standard Version of the Bible, copyright division of Christian Education of the National Council of the Churches of Christ in the U.S.A. All rights reserved.</blockquote>

I would certainly hate to have to explain my way out of these false readings in the ESV to a class of bright teenagers!

Letis was of the mind that the royalties from our purchases of ESVs go the National Council of Churches, to further its agendas. Are we in accord with its agendas?

-----------------

Steve

[Edited on 10-14-2006 by Jerusalem Blade]

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Methinks we are straining out gnats here (Matt 23.24, but not the KJV ;-)), but I confess to be a poor layman who uses the ESV as his primary translation. The notes for the verses in question follow:

So the ESV uses an alternate spelling.

I prefer to think of the NRSV as the ESV's 'crazy cousin' ;-). The RSV was a decent translation which had the misfortune of (again) much ado about nothing re: Is 7.14. and of being the first new translation/revision in the modern era. On the other hand, that controversy eventually led to a proliferation of newer translations, including the NIV - not saying that said proliferation is better necessarily.

No, I don't agree with Letis' view re: the NCC. Copyright laws mean that the ESV and RSV are two different works. I doubt that Crossway are donating to the NCC.

BJ,

I think you're partly right. As noted below, it appears that Good News Publishers/Crossway does not pay royalties to the NCC; though that would be because it has purchased the rights to use the RSV text.

Regarding the discrepancies being due to "probable" alternate spellings, that is like some future scholars saying "stone" might be an alternate spelling for "storm," and "down" for "drown". It doesn't wash. The differences are due to different words.

I found what is below in comments after Letis' lecture (in MP3) on the ESV, Letis himself making one of them.

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninf...ID=41504103537

John Hooper from South Carolina (6/23/2004)

“Interesting”
I found this lecture quite interesting. Letis was misinformed though when he stated that proceeds from the ESV go to the National Council of Churches. Crossway states on its faq page (http://www.gnpcb.org/page/esv.faq) that it does NOT pay any royalties to anyone for the ESV text. They own all the rights to the text. For more information on textual base and translation style see: http://www.gnpcb.org/page/esv.philosophy


Theodore P. Letis (8/4/2004)

“Correction”
Mr. Hooper from South Carolina is unfortunately, misinformed. He derives his information from the official website of the ESV publishers, Crossway. I, on the other hand, derive my information directly from the National Council of Churches, who do, indeed, own the copyright to the old RSV--the basis of the ESV--as can be clearly seen from the copyright page of the ESV itself where this is made perfectly clear. That a licensing fee must be paid for the use of copyright material is standard procedure in the publishing world. That Crossway has such a contract with the National Council of Churches has also been confirmed to me, as I have said, directly by the NCC themselves. Hence, Crossway does financially benefit the NCC.


Gene from U.S.A. (7/29/2005)

“Very True! --And A Clarification”
I contacted the Crossway ESV site by email. The responding associate editor stated that there are NO ongoing royalty payments involved. However, he did admit that Crossway "purchased from the NCC full rights to use the RSV in developing the ESV..." He did not state the amount of funds involved obviously, but considering the market size of this kind of project, it is probably safe to assume a tidy sum. Why would a supposedly conservative translation group seek a translation source from the most rank liberal organization in the country? Dr. Letis makes the point that secular corporate ownership of the Bible translation business is a factor. It's hard to disagree….

-----------

I apologise, BJ, for remarking negatively about your primary translation. It's just that these textual issues are so important to some of us.

Steve

Amen! I'd be embarrassed to preach from anything other than the NASB and constantly have to point out poor renderings. By the time you straighten up all the other versions, you have the NASB.

My pastor has preached all his life from the NASB. I have taught all my life from the NASB. MacArthur favors the NASB.

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Steve, I don't accept your apology, not because I'm hard-headed, but because it's not necessary <smile>. I'll grant your point to the spellings, simply because I'm no expert on textual criticism, but you can rest assured that at least this poor layman's confidence in Jesus' genealogy is not shaken by either spelling <grin>.

David, is Sproul preaching from the NASB? I could have sworn he preaches from the ESV. Not that that matters in the long run - my pastor preached from the NASB and that's fine. I find it less graceful than the NKJV which I was "raised" on (all ten years ago now).

This is in jest (sort of)...for those who advocate the CT....isn't it great that you all have to look forward to finding "more" of God's Word so you all can look for the revised versions of your "new fangled" translations? ...just thought I would stir the pot and then go back to my usual lurking.

Score a cheap one for the TR guys.

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ah ha Nick!

Though....

I am a TR guy; I just don't do much debate about it here...Steve (a.k.a. Jerusalem Blade) does a splendid job.

Ok, back to lurking.