This from KJVO Pastor

caddy · #1 (**permalink**) 03-22-2007, 09:54 AM

Ok guys, need a little assistance. My bother is thinking of attending a local church in his area. I am very excited about this because he has NOT been a member of a local body since we were young boys.

Here is a link to the Church:

WWW.UNDERSTANDINGYOURBIBLE.COM

I emailed the pastor to discuss some of his views, particularly on KJVO.

Here is his 2nd reply to me. For any of you guys that are more familiar with Greek and the subutleties of the different texts, I would appreciate your input here. I would also covet your opinion on the Church Link above if you would like to do so.

From the Pastor:
Steve - The verses from the ESV are a perfect example of how the translations pervert the Word of God.
"and by which you are being saved" is wrong wrong wrong.

KJV - 1 Cor 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

We are not being saved, we either are or we are not. According to Eph 1:13 when we trust in Christ we are sealed (saved).
" In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"

Ehp 2:8 By Grace ye are saved.... not being saved - are saved.

Those that teach we can lose our salvation love the rendering of the ESV because it states we can lose our salvation. If the ESB preverts the truth about the most basic truth of Salvation, which it does, it is in no way excellent. How can you defend such perversion.

mangum · #2 (**permalink**) 03-22-2007, 10:02 AM

See this post from this morning.

North Jersey Baptist · #3 (**permalink**) 03-22-2007, 10:04 AM

Steve - you're wasting your time with this guy. Your brothers decision notwithdstanding, this pastor is not going to be reasoned with. If your brother would be open to your counsel, I would suggest another church.

mangum · #4 (**permalink**) 03-22-2007, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaptistInCrisis

Steve - you're wasting your time with this guy. Your brothers decision notwithdstanding, this pastor is not going to be reasoned with. If your brother would be open to your counsel, I would suggest another church.

Do you know the pastor or are you concluding this because he thinks the ESV is a poor translation?

But, you may be right either way. Look at some of the "What we believe" page:

CHURCH MEMBERSHIP: Since all saved individuals are members of the body of Christ regardless of church affiliation, they are welcome (as is everyone) at Grace Bible Church which does not maintain church membership roles. We do not believe that any church should require more for church membership than God requires for salvation. The Lord knoweth them that are his. II Tim 2:19

I wonder if he would let anyone on this board join the church? How does one join his church anyway - there are no membership roles.

DENOMINATIONS: We believe that to divide the church which is Christ’s body into denominations is unscriptural. Since all saved individuals are members of the body of Christ there is no need to be divided into groups that were founded by men. We have no ties to any denominations, associations or ecumenical groups. We do associate with, and support those of like doctrine across the nation.

"No need to divide..."? Let him read the WCF on Baptism and see what he thinks then! Or, for that matter, any other part of the confession.

This man may not have the capacity to be reasoned with after all.

Blueridge Baptist · #5 (**permalink**) 03-22-2007, 10:15 AM

I can relate how you would rejoice in your brother attending church again. I visted the web site for this group. The very first statement of thier statement of faith troubles me. They believe in salvation without repentance if I understand them correctly.
While I do not agree with thier KJV statement, they go a little far for me with it, it for the most part is not one of thier worse doctrines.

Chris · #6 (**permalink**) 03-22-2007, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caddy

Ok guys, need a little assistance. My bother is thinking of attending a local church in his area. I am very excited about this because he has NOT been a member of a local body since we were young boys.

Here is a link to the Church:

WWW.UNDERSTANDINGYOURBIBLE.COM

I emailed the pastor to discuss some of his views, particularly on KJVO.

Here is his 2nd reply to me. For any of you guys that are more familiar with Greek and the subutleties of the different texts, I would appreciate your input here. I would also covet your opinion on the Church Link above if you would like to do so.

From the Pastor:
Steve - The verses from the ESV are a perfect example of how the translations pervert the Word of God.
"and by which you are being saved" is wrong wrong wrong.

KJV - 1 Cor 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

We are not being saved, we either are or we are not. According to Eph 1:13 when we trust in Christ we are sealed (saved).
" In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"

Ehp 2:8 By Grace ye are saved.... not being saved - are saved.

Those that teach we can lose our salvation love the rendering of the ESV because it states we can lose our salvation. If the ESB preverts the truth about the most basic truth of Salvation, which it does, it is in no way excellent. How can you defend such perversion.

So...he thinks you're going to take one snippet from one verse and create a proof-text argument for a doctrine that goes against virtually everything you beleive?

That sounds normal for an IFB guy.

I agree with BaptistinCrisis - don't waste your time. Explain to your brother that the guy has good intentions and means well but is wrong. Leave the rest up to your brother and God.

BobVigneault · #7 (**permalink**) 03-22-2007, 10:28 AM

Translating the word so that the verb reads as present continuous action doesn't mean that we must understand salvation as something that can slip away. It means that God is very active in maintaining and preserving our salvation. He is active in the process of salvation in that he has ordained and is carrying out our sanctification (a result of salvation). Now if the passage read 'we are being justified', then we ought to have a problem. Salvation is a compound of several elements: election, regeneration, repentance, justification, sanctification, glorification. We have been saved, are being saved, will be saved. These things are all true. Election, regeneration, justification are done, sanctification is ongoing, glorification is to come.

This pastor is playing with words, hearing what he wants to hear and feeding his bias for KJV.

caddy · #8 (**permalink**) 03-22-2007, 10:39 AM

This was my first thought as well Bob.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobVigneault

Translating the word so that the verb reads as present continuous action doesn't mean that we must understand salvation as something that can slip away. It means that God is very active in maintaining and preserving our salvation. He is active in the process of salvation in that he has ordained and is carrying out our sanctification (a result of salvation). Now if the passage read 'we are being justified', then we ought to have a problem. Salvation is a compound of several elements: election, regeneration, repentance, justification, sanctification, glorification. We have been saved, are being saved, will be saved. These things are all true. Election, regeneration, justification are done, sanctification is ongoing, glorification is to come.

This pastor is playing with words, hearing what he wants to hear and feeding his bias for KJV.

Chris · #9 (**permalink**) 03-22-2007, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobVigneault

Translating the word so that the verb reads as present continuous action doesn't mean that we must understand salvation as something that can slip away. It means that God is very active in maintaining and preserving our salvation. He is active in the process of salvation in that he has ordained and is carrying out our sanctification (a result of salvation). Now if the passage read 'we are being justified', then we ought to have a problem. Salvation is a compound of several elements: election, regeneration, repentance, justification, sanctification, glorification. We have been saved, are being saved, will be saved. These things are all true. Election, regeneration, justification are done, sanctification is ongoing, glorification is to come.

This pastor is playing with words, hearing what he wants to hear and feeding his bias for KJV.

That expresses my thoughts, but in a manner I'm incapable of before lunchtime.

caddy · #10 (**permalink**) 03-22-2007, 10:42 AM

Excellent point here Mangum. Thank you!

Quote:

Originally Posted by mangum

See this post from this morning.

caddy · #11 (**permalink**) 03-22-2007, 10:58 AM

Bill

I agree. Knowing that my brother may attend anyway, I tried my best to extend myself to this man in humility. I tried to be as gracious as possible. I told him that I was NOT looking to debate him, but that I only was concerned for my brother. I stated that as a believer we are to be as Bereans ( seeing he had a link that mentioned Berea ( MP3), I thought I would run with that ), searching the scriptures daily to see if these things are so. I mentioned our inability to come on our own because I noted in his 1st reply to me that he had been to a SBC church and an "upwards" baskeball awards ceremony where someone had gave the standard 3 Step forumla on how to be "saved." I agreed that I had a problem with that, mentioned the doctrines of Grace, thinking that would spark a discussion, or provide us with some sign that we might have a "point of contact" and mutual agreement on a subject. All he could come back with was more on KJV. I saw very little evidence of graciousness on his part.

Oh, he's open to my counsel, and I'll certainly give it to him!

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaptistInCrisis

Steve - you're wasting your time with this guy. Your brothers decision notwithdstanding, this pastor is not going to be reasoned with. If your brother would be open to your counsel, I would suggest another church.

JDWiseman · #12 (**permalink**) 03-22-2007, 11:01 AM

Quote:

DENOMINATIONS: We believe that to divide the church which is Christ’s body into denominations is unscriptural. Since all saved individuals are members of the body of Christ there is no need to be divided into groups that were founded by men. We have no ties to any denominations, associations or ecumenical groups. We do associate with, and support those of like doctrine across the nation.

Anyone else see the irony in this?

North Jersey Baptist · #13 (**permalink**) 03-22-2007, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mangum

Do you know the pastor or are you concluding this because he thinks the ESV is a poor translation?

But, you may be right either way. Look at some of the "What we believe" page:

CHURCH MEMBERSHIP: Since all saved individuals are members of the body of Christ regardless of church affiliation, they are welcome (as is everyone) at Grace Bible Church which does not maintain church membership roles. We do not believe that any church should require more for church membership than God requires for salvation. The Lord knoweth them that are his. II Tim 2:19

I wonder if he would let anyone on this board join the church? How does one join his church anyway - there are no membership roles.

DENOMINATIONS: We believe that to divide the church which is Christ’s body into denominations is unscriptural. Since all saved individuals are members of the body of Christ there is no need to be divided into groups that were founded by men. We have no ties to any denominations, associations or ecumenical groups. We do associate with, and support those of like doctrine across the nation.

"No need to divide..."? Let him read the WCF on Baptism and see what he thinks then! Or, for that matter, any other part of the confession.

This man may not have the capacity to be reasoned with after all.

Chris, I can handle disagreements on translation. Point in fact is Rev. Matthew Winzer. He makes a very solid argument for the A.V. I disagree with him, but I do so in love and brotherly unity. The church in question reminds me of the typical baptistic type KJV only church. Their issue is not just the KJV. The rest of the "quackery" goes along with it. You already pointed some out some of it.

North Jersey Baptist · #14 (**permalink**) 03-22-2007, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris

That expresses my thoughts, but in a manner I'm incapable of before lunchtime.

JDWiseman · #15 (**permalink**) 03-22-2007, 11:28 AM

I shouldn't post so quickly after waking up, that's for sure.

I thought it said "we do not associate with..."

I guess implicitly the irony is still there, but not explicitly enough to be worth pointing out. Remind me to have more coffee before surfing the PB next time.

caddy · #16 (**permalink**) 03-22-2007, 02:51 PM

I just received this from the Pastor concerning questions I asked. I think I will be suggesting my Brother find another Church.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

How does one join your church if there are no membership roles? - By being saved
Do you believe in salvation without repentance? No
Do I understand your statement of faith in your churches description correctly? No
Do you know Greek and Hebrew and do you think that an important thing for the pastor to know, or at least have a fair grasp of? NO - I have an English Bible - no need for the Greek

IN HIS GRACE

Steve Atwood
Pastor, Grace Bible Church

Blueridge Baptist · #17 (**permalink**) 03-22-2007, 03:26 PM

Good idea dear brother.

VirginiaHuguenot · #18 (**permalink**) 03-22-2007, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caddy

I just received this from the Pastor concerning questions I asked. I think I will be suggesting my Brother find another Church.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

How does one join your church if there are no membership roles? - By being saved
Do you believe in salvation without repentance? No
Do I understand your statement of faith in your churches description correctly? No
Do you know Greek and Hebrew and do you think that an important thing for the pastor to know, or at least have a fair grasp of? NO - I have an English Bible - no need for the Greek

IN HIS GRACE

Steve Atwood
Pastor, Grace Bible Church

Ouch!

Poimen · #19 (**permalink**) 03-22-2007, 03:34 PM

Quote:

From the Pastor:
Steve - The verses from the ESV are a perfect example of how the translations pervert the Word of God.
"and by which you are being saved" is wrong wrong wrong.

KJV - 1 Cor 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

We are not being saved, we either are or we are not. According to Eph 1:13 when we trust in Christ we are sealed (saved).

I am glad that this pastor teaches that a believer in Christ cannot lose his/her salvation but the Greek verb 'to save' in 1 Corinthians 15:2 is in the passive voice so the ESV is well within the boundaries of right translation when it renders it as 'being saved.'

However, as Bob V. pointed out, this does not deny the 'perseverance of the saints.' In fact one could argue that since salvation is an on-going process we cannot fall away since we are confident with Paul "that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ." (Philippians 1:6)

Canons of Dordrecht, 5.14

Quote:

And as it has pleased God, by the preaching of the gospel, to begin this work of grace in us, so He preserves, continues, and perfects it by the hearing and reading of His Word, by meditation thereon, and by the exhortations, threatenings, and promises thereof, and by the use of the sacraments.

blhowes · #20 (**permalink**) 03-22-2007, 03:42 PM

Caddy,
That's encouraging that your brother is considering becoming a member of a church after so long. Hopefully he'll be open to your thoughts about that church. Do you know of any other churches in his area that he might consider instead?

Quote:

Originally Posted by caddy

From the Pastor:
Steve - The verses from the ESV are a perfect example of how the translations pervert the Word of God.
"and by which you are being saved" is wrong wrong wrong.

KJV - 1 Cor 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

We are not being saved, we either are or we are not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by caddy

Do you know Greek and Hebrew and do you think that an important thing for the pastor to know, or at least have a fair grasp of? NO - I have an English Bible - no need for the Greek

Calling a Bible translation perverted, without knowing how to translate from the Greek, and not having any desire to know how to translate...wow!

North Jersey Baptist · #21 (**permalink**) 03-22-2007, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caddy

I just received this from the Pastor concerning questions I asked. I think I will be suggesting my Brother find another Church.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

How does one join your church if there are no membership roles? - By being saved
Do you believe in salvation without repentance? No
Do I understand your statement of faith in your churches description correctly? No
Do you know Greek and Hebrew and do you think that an important thing for the pastor to know, or at least have a fair grasp of? NO - I have an English Bible - no need for the Greek

IN HIS GRACE

Steve Atwood
Pastor, Grace Bible Church

I'm sure this pastor is wholly convinced in what he believes. He is steeped in his perspective and is not going to change at this point. Your counsel that your brother find another church is spot on.