Hey:

Is the Bible inspired in its Teachings/Meaning only? Or, are they the very Words of the living God?

If the Greek and Hebrew texts are the very Words of the Living God, then how do you get around the fact that there are errors in them?

If the Bible is inspired in its Teachings/Meanings only, then how do you get around the fact that there are many different understandings of major texts in the Bible?

JerusalemBlade is not allowed to answer until after 10 posts!

Blessings,

-CH

__________________
In Essentials Unity, in non-Essentials Liberty, in all things Charity.

Robert Paul Wieland
Springs Reformed Presbyterian Church
Colorado Springs, CO RPCNA
Student at Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary, Pittsburgh PA
B.B. Warfield's definition of Theological Students: "Angels preparing to sound the Trumpets."

Wait till you take Doctrine of Revelation with Dr. Gamble at RPTS. You'll be blown away by the way he destroys this fallacy.

__________________
Benjamin P. Glaser
Pittsburgh, PA
Fairmount ARP Church, Sewickley, PA
Student of Theology Pittsburgh Theological Seminary & Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary

“If the Church could be aroused to a deeper sense of the glory that awaits her, she would enter with a warmer spirit into the struggles that are before her.”-- J.H. Thornwell

Not fair!

Now you have me salivating, and I will have to bother Dr. Gamble about this!

To those who hold to the Textus Receptus (including me):

If inspiration goes to the very words of the Hebrew and Greek, then how do you explain the many differences/errors found in the TR?

To those who hold to the Critical Text:

If inspiration only penetrates to the meaning of the text, and the words themselves are not important, then how do you explain the many different "meanings" found in the many different texts in your heritage? NIV, TNIV, Good News, RSV, NRSV, ESV, CEV, NASB, etc...

G&P

-CH

__________________
In Essentials Unity, in non-Essentials Liberty, in all things Charity.

Robert Paul Wieland
Springs Reformed Presbyterian Church
Colorado Springs, CO RPCNA
Student at Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary, Pittsburgh PA
B.B. Warfield's definition of Theological Students: "Angels preparing to sound the Trumpets."

What are some of these differences/errors you are referring to?

__________________
Mark Li
International University Church
New South Wales, Australia

Do tell.

__________________
Daniel Franzen
Church Creek Presbyterian (PCA)
Charleston, SC

The doctrines of plenary inspiration and inerrancy hold that the human authors of Scripture were so moved by the Holy Spirit that, while yet reflecting their own experiences and personalites, they penned the exact words that God intended.

This view is foundational and true for both TR and Critical text guys.

I'm not sure what you are driving at in the OP. Are you baiting? Or, are you wanting to discuss Textual Criticism?

__________________
Jim
1689 LBCF
Independent Bible Church
North Texas, USA

Yes, I'm confused also. Please come right out and ask directly what you're trying to get at. Inspiration of the original manuscripts is plenary - every word is God's Word. This is the confessional position.

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Todd K. Pedlar
member, First Congregational Church, (CCCC) Cresco, IA
http://semperubi.rtrc.net

"Many men, after a long conversion, see more of the workings of sin in their hearts than ever they did before or at their first conversion. Now, such men have not an increase of sin, but an increase of illumination and light" (Christopher Love)


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K. Joel Gilliard
Theologically Correct dot Com
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The Upcoming CD: The Definition

Hi:

Sorry for the confusion. I hold to the TR and know what I beleive. I am looking for what others would say on the subject in order to improve my own knowledge - iron sharpening iron - so to speak.

Gomarus:

Those who hold to the Critical Text do not understand inspiration the same way as the Orthodox. In acknowledging that there are errors/mistakes in the copies of the originals they argue that inspiration is not in the very words of the text, but in the meaning behind the words. It is this theory that has given rise to all the different versions of the Bible that are now on the market. Consequently, the Orthodox doctrine of inspiration, which you have so eloquently explained, is undermined.

Errors in the TR:

One of the big ones can be found in the last verses of Revelation. Originally, Erasmus had to translate these passages out of the Latin because none of the Greek Texts he had contained it. In doing so he created a word that is nowhere found in any Greek Text (Byzantine or Alexandrian):

Summarturoumai.gar at Rv 22:18.

Another "error" that is claimed is found in 1 John 5:7-8. Compare the King James (TR):

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

With the ESV (CT):

For there are three that testify, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and these three agree.

Grace,

-CH

__________________
In Essentials Unity, in non-Essentials Liberty, in all things Charity.

Robert Paul Wieland
Springs Reformed Presbyterian Church
Colorado Springs, CO RPCNA
Student at Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary, Pittsburgh PA
B.B. Warfield's definition of Theological Students: "Angels preparing to sound the Trumpets."

Thanks C&H, for clarification. But it is my experience that Critical Text guys do not "argue that inspiration is not in the very words of the text, but in the meaning behind the words."

The Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy was signed by 100 conservative evangelical theologians, the great majority of which were Critical Text guys. This Statement concurs with my earlier post summary with which you agree -- verbal, plenary, and inerrant (in the original autographs).

If the thrust of your concern is difference between original autographs, extant manuscripts, and english texts, the answer is providence. I don't see a huge difference unless one wishes to say that providence provided for the very words of the english KJV and stopped there.

__________________
Jim
1689 LBCF
Independent Bible Church
North Texas, USA

Good point.

But when we talk about the copies of the originals I believe that the CT position opens itself up to "meaning" rather than words.

Historically, prior to the mid to late 1800's the phrase "in the original autographs" cannot be found in any of the Orthodox statements concerning the inspiration of the Scriptures. This compromise with the doctrine of inspiration was devised in response to Lower Critics like Wellhausen and Tischendorf who started pointing out "errors" in the Received Text.

Up until this time the Greek and Hebrew Texts were thought to be true apographia of the autographs - thus, inspired in their words and not meanings only. As you have pointed out they are "Providentially Preserved," but are they preserved in meanings only or in the very words themselves?

If they are preserved in meaning only (the CT position) then why so many different translations?

If they are preserved in the very words, (the TR position) then how can there be "errors" in the text?

Blessings,

-CH

__________________
In Essentials Unity, in non-Essentials Liberty, in all things Charity.

Robert Paul Wieland
Springs Reformed Presbyterian Church
Colorado Springs, CO RPCNA
Student at Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary, Pittsburgh PA
B.B. Warfield's definition of Theological Students: "Angels preparing to sound the Trumpets."

Can Mr. Rafalsky respond now?

__________________


http://www.villagecommunitychurch.org/

Yes, he can if he so likes.

__________________
In Essentials Unity, in non-Essentials Liberty, in all things Charity.

Robert Paul Wieland
Springs Reformed Presbyterian Church
Colorado Springs, CO RPCNA
Student at Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary, Pittsburgh PA
B.B. Warfield's definition of Theological Students: "Angels preparing to sound the Trumpets."

IMO that passage is different in the CT because the Arians took it out of the so-called "oldest and best" manuscripts. So the "error" is not in the TR text, but the CT reflects early Arian error.

__________________
Sterling Harmon
Coventry, CT
PCA
Deacon
________________

"Whatever is laudable in our works proceeds from the grace of God."
-- John Calvin, Institutes III:xv.3.

"Our Lord God must be a good man, to be fond of worthless fellows. I cannot like them, and yet I, myself, am one."
-- Martin Luther, Table Talk

I would have thought that inspiration must extend both to words as well as to teachings.

In passages like Mark 12, when arguing with the pharisees, Jesus references not just teaching, but the form of words in the OT. So he uses the phase 'I am' (v26) to prove the resurrection, and the particular word 'Lord' (v37) to prove that the Christ is not merely a physical descendant of David.

__________________
Mark Li
International University Church
New South Wales, Australia

The short answer is: both text and meaning are inspired.

The problem is not that the very words were not inspired. They were.
The problem is not that the very words have ALL been preserved. They have.

The problem IS, where (which mss tradition? one? another? all taken together?) and on what basis (majority of mss? oldest? clearest reading? most grammatical? light from ancient translations? etc.) are we to determine how to get as close as we can to those very words. The problem is in people and the various mistakes they made here and there as copyists, and in our fallible attempts, through a wide collation and careful 'listening", to remove what static we can from our system. The basic trouble is internal to us, not external.

The truth is that there is, despite all the heavy breathing, an extraordinarily reliable text of this ancient book, no matter how many introductions of "errata" one can cobble. Nothing, absolutely nothing else in the world is comparable. So where we as humans end up disagreeing about whether the word has a missing letter, objectively we typically have little trouble agreeing on the inspired meaning of that sentence.

There is more disagreement between an Arminian and a Calvinist--who may both agree perfectly on inspiration--over the theological import of a sentence, than scholars arguing over the placement of certain letters.


In my humble opinion, for whatever weight an unbeliever or an apostate gives to "mss differences" for turning his heart away from trust in the God of inspiration, his problem is not ultimately intellectual, but a one of "hearing." The failure is in his "equipment," in his "receiver."

In the end, this duty we have as Christians to "hear" the Shepherd's Voice (Jn 10:27) is very much akin to the early church's need to settle the canon. Where is God doing his talking? If you don't like the NIV, and prefer the KJV, I hope it is because the former is in your estimation a "crummy receiver," too filled with "static" that it hardly gives you what clarity of reception you want, and NOT because you cannot tell that it is GOD talking to you in those pages!

For if that is your problem, then what will you do if you lose your KJV, and cannot find another? Unlikely, perhaps, but the thought experiment is still valid. If you can't tell God's is the Voice behind the NIV, then you obviously can't tell the difference between the NIV and the NWT (the jw deliberate work of distortion) or the Book of Mormon. In your determination not to be led astray, you will just sit at home, preferring no Bible, and your rusty memory to feed yourself. What a pity!

So, make your choice. Say something like this: "This is the Best Bible I can find; I hear Christ in it most clearly and wonderfully. I don't think I'll ever give up this vacuum tube technology, or my earbuds, or these old speakers, or that brand ruins the tone, or I don't think the reception is quite as good in that one, or this one uses the word 'Jehovah', or...."

I hope you get the picture. Listen to the advice of someone you trust to give you a good "brand" recommendation. And then don't worry about it.

__________________
Rev. Bruce G. Buchanan
ChainOLakes Presbyterian Church, CentralLake, MI


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If the moral is good for the reader then it applies with equal force to the publisher. Pity the publisher who chose to disseminate a sub-standard version in place of a faithful translation and thereby left one of Christ's sheep devoid of the unfaltering voice of the Good Shepherd.

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Yours sincerely,


"Illum oportet crescere me autem minui."

Hey:

There is a bit of a paradox here. If you believe that the words are inspired, then you would naturally have to hold that the meanings of those words are inspired as well - otherwise - the words would not make much sense. However, if you believe the meanings are inspired, then you do not necessarily have to hold on to the words. This is evident in practice: We see the NIV, ESV, NASB, the Good News, etc. all of which claim to teach the meaning of Scripture, but using different words.

G&P,

-CH

__________________
In Essentials Unity, in non-Essentials Liberty, in all things Charity.

Robert Paul Wieland
Springs Reformed Presbyterian Church
Colorado Springs, CO RPCNA
Student at Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary, Pittsburgh PA
B.B. Warfield's definition of Theological Students: "Angels preparing to sound the Trumpets."

Using different words from what? The KJV?

The words of the original manuscripts were inspired. The manuscripts we have are "inspired" words in so much as they are accurately copied from the original manuscripts. Regardless of differences, I think it is evident that we can clearly see the word of God preserved in the mss we have today.

Different people translate from the Hebrew and Greek using different synonyms, syntax, etc. But each of the Bibles above (well, I don't know the Good News Bible) are accurate to the manuscripts, which means they teach the meanings of Scripture and are the very words of Scripture.

This is most evident if you speak a language other than English. I visited a KJV-only church last week, and since I couldn't find my KJV, I brought my French Bible. When I read along in that language, it definitely had different words than what the preacher was saying. Yet I believed what I was reading to be the very words of God preserved. In my head, I could translate the French word "ombre" in Ecclesiastes 1 as "shade" or "shadow" or "obscurity", and I would say any of these would be the preserved word of God. I would be foolish to pick, say, "shade", and declare any translator who used "shadow" to be translating meaning and not words.

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Kim G
Non-denom church (holds to the WCF)
Zion Community Church, Greenville, SC

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