Do you NASB, NIV or ESV teachers include WSC Q #107 in your teaching?

If so, why and how since neither Matt 6 nor Luke 11 conclude the Lord's Prayer with these words? I understand that you could teach that His is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever, but how do you teach that it is the conclusion to the Lord's Prayer? Where do you go to teach that when we pray we should ascribe to Him kingdom, power and glory?

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http://www.villagecommunitychurch.org/

Hi:

Good point!

-CH

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In Essentials Unity, in non-Essentials Liberty, in all things Charity.

Robert Paul Wieland
Springs Reformed Presbyterian Church
Colorado Springs, CO RPCNA
Student at Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary, Pittsburgh PA
B.B. Warfield's definition of Theological Students: "Angels preparing to sound the Trumpets."

Pssst!.....stick with the good King Jimmy!

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~etexas~

I received a PM from which I gleaned that I have been misunderstood. I was not trying to make a point. I was just wanting to know how CT teachers handle this catechism question in light of the fact that they do not believe that the words "For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory for ever. Amen" are part of the Word of God. Do CT teachers and pastors skip that Question? Do they explain that the Divines were just doing the best they could with the Word that the HS had given them at that time but now we know that these words were never a part of the Lord's Prayer? Do you go ahead and teach it anyway because these words are so cemented in our minds?

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http://www.villagecommunitychurch.org/

I have no idea and have never seen it come up. I note that the OPC's version of proofs for the WLC 196, add to note "a" containing the Matt. 6:13 reference, [found in some, but not all, Greek manuscripts]. The WSC note has no references in the OPC version as they adopted the proofs of the PCUSA from 1896 (*their second set; the PCUSA SC did not have proofs before then under the first set of proofs from 1797,* for the WCF and WLC). I have not compared to see if the OPC has made any changes, but in either event, they retain the lack of proof texts for the words of the Lord's Prayer in the SC.

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Chris Coldwell, Lakewood Presbyterian Church (PCA), Member
• Naphtali Press: Presbyterian & Reformed Books
• The Confessional Presbyterian Journal
• The Blue Banner Archive

The Regulative Principle: Samuel Miller gives a succinct statement of this principle when he writes that since the Scriptures are the “only infallible rule of faith and practice, no rite or ceremony ought to have a place in the public worship of God, which is not warranted in Scripture, either by direct precept or example, or by good and sufficient inference.”

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions? Joining PB's Politics & Government Forum

And the OPC has done this because they 'officially' adopted the ESV? Is it likely that the OPC will eventually change the wording of the catechisms to fit their view of Scritpure?

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http://www.villagecommunitychurch.org/

I don't think so; some OPC'r may know the answer; I am not sure that the OPC has adopted any particular version?

__________________
Chris Coldwell, Lakewood Presbyterian Church (PCA), Member
• Naphtali Press: Presbyterian & Reformed Books
• The Confessional Presbyterian Journal
• The Blue Banner Archive

The Regulative Principle: Samuel Miller gives a succinct statement of this principle when he writes that since the Scriptures are the “only infallible rule of faith and practice, no rite or ceremony ought to have a place in the public worship of God, which is not warranted in Scripture, either by direct precept or example, or by good and sufficient inference.”

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions? Joining PB's Politics & Government Forum

I will say, the OPC, which has its own scripture proofs set, or at least a modified proof set, for the WLC, is the only one with this note far as I know.

__________________
Chris Coldwell, Lakewood Presbyterian Church (PCA), Member
• Naphtali Press: Presbyterian & Reformed Books
• The Confessional Presbyterian Journal
• The Blue Banner Archive

The Regulative Principle: Samuel Miller gives a succinct statement of this principle when he writes that since the Scriptures are the “only infallible rule of faith and practice, no rite or ceremony ought to have a place in the public worship of God, which is not warranted in Scripture, either by direct precept or example, or by good and sufficient inference.”

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions? Joining PB's Politics & Government Forum

Would this note be reflected in the catechism as published by GCP? And if so, is it a recent development?

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http://www.villagecommunitychurch.org/

I don't know unless it has been updated. I'm using The Confession of Faith and Catechisms of The Orthodox Presbyterian Church with Proof Texts (Willow Grove, Pa: The Committee on Christian Education of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, (c) 2005) page 352.

__________________
Chris Coldwell, Lakewood Presbyterian Church (PCA), Member
• Naphtali Press: Presbyterian & Reformed Books
• The Confessional Presbyterian Journal
• The Blue Banner Archive

The Regulative Principle: Samuel Miller gives a succinct statement of this principle when he writes that since the Scriptures are the “only infallible rule of faith and practice, no rite or ceremony ought to have a place in the public worship of God, which is not warranted in Scripture, either by direct precept or example, or by good and sufficient inference.”

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions? Joining PB's Politics & Government Forum

As for the Kingdom, Power and Glory and Glory being "old" we have Chrysotom's sermons Kingdom, Power, and Glory, there is other good Patristic evidence as well.

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~etexas~

My copy of the SC by GCP 1995 does not reference Matt 6. Neither does my copy by Banner of Truth 2004.

I still would be interested in how CT teachers teach this question.

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http://www.villagecommunitychurch.org/

They would say that the theology is right, even if the textual variant is not original. Isn't it similar to a statement in Chronicles anyway? I can't remember exactly where it is.

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Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)

Sorry, I found it in 1 Chron. 29:11; here is the NIV rendering:

The ESV is virtually identical.

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Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)

I understand that the omission of the phrase "For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and glory forever. Amen" in Matt 6 does not do away with the theology that it teaches with the exception that, according to the Divines, Jesus teaches us that the conclusion to the Lord's Prayer actually teaches us something. However, CT users believe there is no conclusion to the Lord's Prayer, including the word "Amen".

I would assume that CT users, such as the OPC, would skip this question altogether because they believe the question itself is flawed. I am interested because I am currently preaching through the WSC on the Lord's Prayer.

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http://www.villagecommunitychurch.org/

As I said in my first note, it is not in the WSC in the OPC standards either because of the adoption of the PCUSA set of scripture proofs. The comment is at WLC 196 with the adoption of the new (2001) OPC scripture proofs for their version of the LC.

__________________
Chris Coldwell, Lakewood Presbyterian Church (PCA), Member
• Naphtali Press: Presbyterian & Reformed Books
• The Confessional Presbyterian Journal
• The Blue Banner Archive

The Regulative Principle: Samuel Miller gives a succinct statement of this principle when he writes that since the Scriptures are the “only infallible rule of faith and practice, no rite or ceremony ought to have a place in the public worship of God, which is not warranted in Scripture, either by direct precept or example, or by good and sufficient inference.”

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions? Joining PB's Politics & Government Forum

They may argue that since it is a fitting conclusion (which is Biblical in its content), then it is legitimate to use it in the WSC/WLC, even though the conclusion is not in the original text.

__________________
Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)

I understand that the omission of the phrase "For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and glory forever. Amen" in Matt 6 does not do away with the theology that it teaches with the exception that, according to the Divines, Jesus teaches us that the conclusion to the Lord's Prayer actually teaches us something. However, CT users believe there is no conclusion to the Lord's Prayer, including the word "Amen".

I would assume that CT users, such as the OPC, would skip this question altogether because they believe the question itself is flawed. I am interested because I am currently preaching through the WSC on the Lord's Prayer.

__________________


http://www.villagecommunitychurch.org/

How would they know that it is not in the original text and that it is the CT which is corrupt.

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~etexas~