For years my family and I (parents, sister and her family) went to an Independent Charismatic Church. Today, after several years of study which led me to become Reformed and Presbyterian, my boys and I are the only ones in the family who still go to Church at all. Although my family got sick of the many failed prophecies and "healings" and the practical "popish" authority of the pastor, they still cling (to a degree) to the teachings that I left behind.

Can anyone here suggest a good book on the cessation of the Spiritual gifts that might be convincing to my family?

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Kevin - PCA - Mississippi

"What, for some, is sin, others do to the glory of God. And the good Dr. Pentecost's remarks notwithstanding, I intend to go home tonight and smoke a cigar to the glory of God. It is a kind of incense drifting to Heaven." - Charles Spurgeon

"Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift!" - 2 Corinthians 9:15

I don't like your options; I wouldn't say I am a capital-C Cessationist (although I'm sure I talk like one around my pentecostal friends ) but definitely not a continuationist.

Here are some articles I found by surfing the boards here: The Charisimatic Movement Index

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Steven Nemes
Phoenix, AZ

Good philosophy must exist, if for no other reason, because bad philosophy must be answered - C.S. Lewis

Thanks for the url. BTW What options would you suggest?

Well it seems to me that there are different sorts of cessationists out there; some might deny tongues, while others deny tongues and prophecy and miracles, and others deny even more than that. Really, my complaint against your options was not intended as a criticism or anything of the sort

No problem, as far as the 'thanks' regarding the URL is concerned! I still have a lot of reading to do on the subject (I kinda wish there was some book out there written on it, rather than isolated articles)...

In my experience, most Pentecostal men and women have never been presented with a cessationist view of the charismatic gifts. The Pentecostal/charismatic view is simply assumed or presupposed whenever Scripture is read. No person is supposed to question the alleged prophecies, tongues, and miraculous healings lest he question the working of God the Holy Spirit Himself.

I highly recommend Walter Chantry's

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Albert, The Republic of the Philippines
Pasig United Covenant Reformed Church (a Reformed church plant)
United Covenant Reformed Churches in the Philippines (UCRCP)
Three Forms of Unity and Westminster Confession of Faith

Psalm 27:1a (AV) The LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear?
“Perseverance is the badge of true saints. The Christian life is not a beginning only in the ways of God, but also a continuance in the same as long as life lasts.” -

Charismatic Chaos by John MacArthur.

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Flavio
Particular Baptist, 1644er
Visiting churches
Bond servant of my Lord Jesus
Husband to Hanna, father to Nathan, Chloe, Caleb, & Lily

I`m not sure I fit necessarily in the catergories listed but fall more closely to definitely a cessationist but not dogmatically. Is this even possible, I`m not sure but I am working it out.

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Michael P Doyle
Waukesha WI
Member of http://www.cornerstone-pca.com/
Attending http://www.lampseminary.org/

Havn't studied it enough, but leaning srongly to cessationism

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~ Charles Stephen Barribeau ~
Christ Presbyterian Church , OPC (They sing alot of Psalms!)
Original Westminster Standards (I need to study more...)
The Puritans were best! Also... I NEED TO READ MORE!!!
Philipians1:29(KJV) For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Janesville, Wisconsin (In the fellowship of Bob Vigneault and Matt+Megan Meisberger)

A cessationist here. The Bible..

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sarah
WI
OPC
My Pastor's Sermons: Mark Jenkins...he's awesome!!!

I didn't take your complaint as an insult. I honestly wanted to know what other options there were.

Are Miraculous Gifts For Today? Four Views

Cessationist View by Gaffin
Open But Cautious View by Saucy
Third Wave View by Storms
Pentecostal View by Oss

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http://www.villagecommunitychurch.org/


"Preparing a sermon is like cooking a meal. You need pots and pans and utensils, but you don't bring them out to the table where people are eating." Derek Thomas


Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

I was going to recommend this book as well! It was incredibly helpful to me in dealing with several of my charismatic friends!

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Yvonne
Reformed Presbyterian
Currently seeking a Church

"A man's most glorious actions will at last be found to be but glorious sins, if he hath made himself, and not the glory of God, the end of those actions." -T. Brooks

When I was a Roman Catholic I strongly believed that some men had special gifts to heal the sick, receive revelations from God, fill believers with the Holy Spirit, etc. I even attended a mass where the priest "hit" the faithful in the forehead with the Spirit and they would fall on their back, exactly as some charismatic leaders do today.

As a reformed Christian, now I am fully cessationist. The interaction with Pentecostal brothers forced me to study the matter to be able to present the biblical doctrine of the spiritual gifts and answer their objections.

I am convinced that to introduce a charismatic brother to cessationism, the very first thing to do, before reading books, before even exegeting the biblical passages on the gifts, is to study the biblical doctrine of Sola Scriptura. Any careful exegesis will not be effective as long as our charismatic brother holds to two distinct authorities, the Bible AND his experience. Often, personal experience becomes the interpretative filter of the Word of God, just like it did for our first parents in Genesis 3. The Word of God was: "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Gen. 2.17). When the serpent suggested his totally contrasting interpretation, the woman appealed to her experience to judge between God's words and the serpent's: "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof" (Gen. 3.6). She saw that it was good for food, pleasant to the eyes and desirable. Her experience became the final authority to interpret the Word of God.

That is why I think that the necessary premise of cessationism is trusting the Scripture as the sole infallible authority, against which we have to test our experience and not vice-versa. I am not of course suggesting that all continuationists trust in their experience, as in that camp there are serious men such as Storms or Piper, but that is what seems to happen in most charismatics.

Then, of course, good books with a careful exegesis are important. I can recommend at least two essays available on the web:

Rev. Schwertley's "The Charismatic Movement: A Biblical Critique"

Rev. Ron Hanko, "Signs of the Apostles: The Temporary Gifts of the Holy Spirit", Part I and Part II.

My .

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Andrea
Presbyterian, attending Baptist church
Perugia, Italy
Owner: federiformata.it

"Quos et vocavit nos non solum ex Iudæis sed etiam ex gentibus" (Rom. 9.24)

I can now assert that I'm a Cessationist with a Capital "C". Always was but took some time not just recently but over the past several years to consider the claims of my Continuationist Reformed brethren as I truly respect them and their ministires however I believe the Bible is ALL the inspired Revelation that my family and I need at the present time.

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Wayne Whitmer
Member, Rio Rancho OPC
Albuquerque, NM

No.


Great Book.

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"A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent." John Calvin

John from Scotland
Denomination: Attending Baptist church
Confessional Subscription:London Baptist Confession
Blog: [url]www.three-streams.co.uk[/url]

If you understand the term "cessationism" to mean new revelation equal or above that of Scripture I don't think you could embrace reformed theology (once you comprehensively understand it).

It seems charismatic/pentecostal churches do mean that, at least assume it in practice. Many in those communions may not fully understand that is what they are doing, or the alternative theology of all of Scripture, but that is what their practice implies, at least.

The way that term is commonly understood and applied, I don't think the focus is really on whether "God can still do miracles" or "God still gives miraculous gifts." He does. It is about the nature of supernatural revelation as guide for Christian faith and practice.

Do we "follow" Mr. Wilkerson's alternately vague and specific "vision" or "prompting of the Holy Spirit," whatever he refers to it as, as a rule for life? Then, if "something bad," at least arguably happens sometime later, do we validate what he said? If so, on what basis?

My understanding is if the basis is the Old Testament function of a prophet prophesying is applied, it would be in an entirely different context (Word of God not completed) and for a different purpose (Holy spirit not operating as explicitly in the Old Testament), and have a very different accountability structure (look what happens when one was wrong)!. What we have now is presumptive acceptance and if part arguably comes true, validation. There is no biblical self-examination for honoring in belief the parts that did not come to pass in charismatic/pentecostal communions. No repentance. No accountability for the one whose "prophesy" did not completely come true. This is not even the Old Testament pattern for the gift, let alone pattern to validate it.

Do we accept it as having any value for our lives as Christians at all? Is this the way God intends us to live in light of a completed cannon of Scripture and the faith once and for all delivered unto the saints, built upon the foundation of the prophets and apostles.

As Steven pointed out, the terms don't really get at the issues because people are understanding the terms or their implications differently.

The PCA has a pastoral letter on spiritual gifts. It is essentially "cessationist" but I have heard it called "soft cessationist." It may be helpful as a concise way of understanding the issues involved:http://www.pcahistory.org/documents/pastoralletter.html

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Scott
PCA
North Carolina


"Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)"
Hebrews 10:23

"The Charsmatic gift of Prophecy, a reformed response to Wayne Grudem" by Kenneth L Gentry

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Richard W. Roldan "Ricky"
Member and Teacher of Iglesia Presbiteriana Reformada Berea (PCA)
Winter Haven, FL./ Under Care of the Southwest Presb.(PCA)

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations,...” Jesus

" I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel," Paul

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Bryan Peters
Providence Reformed Church (URCNA)
Des Moines, Iowa

Doctrinal truth should be preached always, openly, without compromise, and never dissembled or concealed. There is no offence in it; it is the staff of uprightness.
~Martin Luther~

If they are not reformed then their belief in the continuation of certain spiritual gifts is the least of their troubles. Coming from a Pentecostal background, I would not assault their continuationist beliefs head on. Especially with books like Charismatic Chaos, which will only add to their confusion and distrust of anyone who is not charismatic.

You should probably try to convince them of the Doctrines of grace first. These doctrines are much easier to support with Scripture. Once they become Calvinists began to introduce them to more reformed theology. When they are thoroughly convinced of the truth, and see how much they have been in error, then they should be more inclined to abandon charasmaticism.

After I discovered reformed theology I simply looked at the heretical beliefs of the people who started the movement on Azusa Street. God would never confirm their flawed doctrine with a sign or wonder. If anything spiritual happened it was Satan promoting his own gospel.

The Charismatic/Pentecostal movement deceives unregenerates into thinking they have salvation, and prevents believers from maturing in Christ. It is a dead tradition, a web if deceit. I would definitely address the Doctrines of Grace first. You may even want to give them RC Sproul’s book, “Knowing Scripture”. Ensuring that they know how to interpret Scripture will make your job much easier.

Even if they never change their views on the continuation of certain gifts, reformed continuationists are imuch better off than their Arminian counter parts, just look at Piper. Gifts are only a small part of a much larger tradition.

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Jonathan
College Student
Grace Family Fellowship {SBC}
Kentucky

... yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

1 Corinthians 8:6

I suppose I never want to say that the Holy Spirit would not and could not do something.
What happens in the privacy of a prayer closet is not my area to police.
I believe that miracles still happen whenever God wills.
I don't think they can be called up or summoned like a parlor trick.

I have seen so much abuse of "words of knowledge" and "God told me this" that I would always demand Biblical confirmation so that being the case I just go to scripture from the start.
So I don't know if you would call me cessationist, soft cessationist, waffler or what?

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Richard H. King
Providence PCA
Lubbock, Texas
You know what my main problem is? I start things but rarely finish anyth...

Amen Jonathan. You are a wise and bright young man.

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Benjamin P. Glaser, M. Div, Licentiate, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church
Member Fairmount ARP Church
Pittsburgh, PA

Deo Vindice

definite cessasionist

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Martin - Reformed
Husband to the most godly, honorable and loyal wife Line
Searching for a Church
Webpage www.5solas.dk
Free Online Reformed Seminary - http://www.tnars.net
Soli Deo Gloria

I am a Cessationist. I don't believe in continuing revelation, I believe tongues have ceased, I don't believe that people have gifts of healing, or that they can perform miracles as the apostles did. However, I do believe that God can and still does heal and perform miracles. It's just that He doesn't gift people to do these works. He does them in response to prayer, and God gets all the glory.

I got this story from a missionary who was present when this happened. A man who could only speak and understand his native tongue sat through a service which was preached entirely in a different language (not a different dialect) from his own. The man swears he heard the entire sermon in his own language, AND he came to the Lord while sitting under the preaching. It was the first time he had heard the Gospel. The pastor preaching was totally unaware of what was going on, and the man who was converted never experienced a repeat incident. Can God do this? Of course He can. Does that mean tongues still exist? No. I personally believe that God performed this miracle for the sake of that man who needed to hear that sermon.

__________________
J Baldwin
Keowee Presbyterian Church, PCA
Pickens, SC
“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” Luke 10:27

Check Out My Blog: http://reflectjoy.blogspot.com/

Given this book out to quite a few of my colleagues, etc.

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For the sake of the Name,

John Hill
Faith Community - Woodstock, Ga
Adopted. Husband for 13 years. Father of 5 children.
http://faithcommunitychurch.org- My home church
Rocky Top, you'll always be, home sweet home to me.

Yes, I have found this to be true.

Most people in charismatic/pentecostal communions have had no systematic exposure to the whole of Scripture. In those communions, I now realize 95% of teaching comes from 5% of God's Word and even that 5% is not really put in the context of the whole of Scripture. It is not the body of Scripture interpreting individual passages for unified, coherent meaning but rather the opinion interpretation of the individual charismatic/pentecostal leader. Those leaders views grow, shrink or change- and so does the theology imparted to the congregation along with it.

Reformed theology presents a stable platform based on the perspicuity of all of Scripture. The Scriptures will interpret themselves and remain internally consistent. Creeds like the Westminster Confession do that very well, and provide a basis for unity and accountability.

Reformed theology also provides us with a coherent view of the workings of grace (the "five points" )all necessarily and logically related to and dependent on one another.

I have found it more profitable, in beginning with people who have been led in charismatic/pentecostal circles to patiently work on the doctrines of grace first, then look at a covenantal view of Scripture, then look at other doctrines of a Confession, before going to a "cessationism" discussion- particularly since often the term is not being understood the same way.

Many times in these cases, we are dealing with fellow believers, but whether believer or nonbeliever, we can expect that taking time to show them and discussing with them God's Word will bear fruit.

I'll be honest that Continuationism is what turned me off to Mark Driscoll. I have all of his books and am on my 3rd one now but I'm not a fan of his "word of knowledge" experiences. If I want a "word of knowledge" I'll read my Bible or watch "The 700 Club."

(NOTE: Not trying to hijack the thread to discuss Mark Driscoll again, just shedding light)

This seems significant to me. The modern tongues movement was born out of "heretical beliefs." I agree with Jonathan. How could the tongues of this movement be of God?? And if not of God in the second wave, why would it be of God in the Third Wave?

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Jim
1689 LBCF
Independent Bible Church
North Texas, USA

If one must address this issue with charismatics, it is helpful to show them the Biblical definition of a prophet (Deut. 22:18-22) and how tongues were used in Acts 2 (earthly foreign languages). Then can be shown that their "gifts" are not the same as the biblical gifts, but are something different altogether.

But Jonathan is right. When discussing gifts with a Pentecostal, one is not just dealing with abstract theology (whatever that may be). One is calling into question the personal "experiences" of the Pentecostal believer, and that can get very personal.

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Scott Kessler
Covenant Community OPC
Staunton, VA
Covenant Theology
Christian Skepticism
Christianity In History

I=xxxxxxx

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Mary Vanderkooi
Kale Heywott Church (KHC)
Soddo, Ethiopia

I understand you mean by "cessationist" those who do not believe the I Cor 12 gifts continue after the canon of Scripture was completed, or who do not believe in a revelatory nature of these gifts in light of the completed canon. You are saying you have seen some who have had experiences out in destitute areas, and through them come to change their beliefs. The changed beliefs cause toleration, even promotion of extra-biblical authoritative revelation. This is based on the fact they saw or experienced something they believe to be "real."

Understand the difficulties here. First, is our doctrine grounded on the authority of Scripture or on experience, or both? If both, which has greater authority? How do we then evaluate a contradictory experience?

This underscores one of the key tenants of reformed theology-
the unity of the church must be grounded in doctrinal agreement. That's why confessional standards (such as the 3 forms of unity or the Westminster Standards) are so useful- they bind the particular church together for accountability and provide a basis for unity. Doctrine does not ebb and flow based on the personality, teaching or (destitute region) "experiences" of one leader.

It's problematic, as you mention Reformed theology also sees officers (e.g. Ministers, Elders and Deacons) as appointed by God and bound to sincerely believe the doctrinal summaries (or be very carefully granted minimalist "exception"). Often, officers are bound by oath to come forward and inform if their views substantially change, to make that known. These are sealed by vow, before God with witnesses. Changing back-and-forth on doctrine like this is not acceptable. It violates the Ninth Commandment, the nature of vows, etc.

I have no doubt this is why many outside of reformed theology have no desire to be bound by the Scriptural qualifications for office (exemplary life, doctrinal belief, and giftings) in the first place. Far less do they wish to be held accountable for their beliefs or behavior by confessional standards, or vow.

Men may not take their promises (vows) seriously but we have every reason to believe, from Scripture, God takes them very seriously, especially for those who would presume to lead God's people.

Open but cautious here.

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Donald Jacobs
Roanoke VA.
Covenant Reformed Episcopal Church.

Cum vero infirmor tunc potens sum.

I am not permitted to respond to Scott's post per Board rules. There are charistmatic-reformed sites on the internet where the points raised are taken up in a rational, Biblical manner by those more qualified than I.

I voted "undecided." I'm definitely leaning toward a cessationist perspective, but I haven't studied the issue sufficiently to label myself.

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SW
Church of the Highlands, San Francisco, CA

I have heard things like Mary is probably talking about from reformed missionaries, so I hate to put God in a box. I think the charismatic church in our part of the world is a mess and do not believe in that at all. I read the book Charismatic Chaos long ago. But I am open to the possibility that God may use signs or miracles in unreached parts of the world. I guess I'd have to label myself as a cautious cessationist who believes God still does miracles as He desires.

And I totally agree with those who said you don't go to charismatics with the issue of cessationism!!! It is far more important that they come to an understanding of the doctrines of grace first. And of course, there are reformed denominations such as the one C. J. Mahaney is associated with that are not cessationist but still reformed (correction: Calvinist might be more accurate than reformed).

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Janis
Christ Church ARP, NC
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved." Eph. 1:3-6 ESV

I have thought the same thing. Reformed theology is, at a minimum

There's a whole lot of biblical ground to cover before one even gets to "cessationism" and exactly what we mean by that.

As for the individual you mention, we might want to say the individual you mention is "Calvinist" and appears now, after many years of trending toward that, that he is now solid in that. But he is not clearly covenantal, and not bound or accountable by a confession in his denomination so neither he or his denomination is reformed... at least not yet.

There's a lot of definition quagmire surrounding the word cessationist. In the drift of "has any gift ceased?" I would say yes. There are no more Apostles who had authority to write scripture as a first hand witness. The learned men that accompanied them and wrote for them some would use to argue with me, but you catch my drift.... the first generation witnesses are gone period. That would put me in the cessationist camp. People who go around claiming to be prophets with a "thus saith the LORD" authority tacked on their claims turn out bogus on one point when you test them, that makes them false prophets. Does God still miraculously heal? Yes, but not because I prayed over the blue hankey and put it under your pillow. There's a lot of garbage floating around trying to discredit our Lord and get people to worship a self proclaimed "anointed leader", but HE will do as HE sovereignly wants to show HIS glory. I hope the next thing I see is the return of Jesus to set everything straight....including me.

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Rich Koster
1689'er
Browns Mills NJ USA
Often Goofy Reformed Eccentric
Romans 7:14-25

I appreciate what you're saying but I've been trying to get them to see the Doctrines of Grace for years.

Thanks brother!