Thread: Why was Lucifer created?

If God created all things with a purpose, what was the purpose of Creating Lucifcer?

Was he created with a free-will? Or was He created specifically to rebel against God?

I realise we can only speculate as Scripture is not clear, but has anyone (other than me) ever wondered this?

I realize about the only scripture we have to go on are the statements "I WILL" but is it possible He created for that purpose?

Lucifer was created, as all things were created, to demonstrate God's glory. Make a list of the attributes of God, communicable and incommunicable, and then check off the attributes that we would know little or nothing about had God not ordained that sin enter his creation.

We would not know his mercy, his wrath, his justice, his love, his supremacy, etc. Our picture of God would be missing the 'weightiness' that we find in the story of redemption. We would not know God at all. What is the chief end of man? To glorify God and enjoy him forever.

Romans 18:16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.
Future Glory

18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

Originally Posted by BobVigneault

Lucifer was created, as all things were created, to demonstrate God's glory. Make a list of the attributes of God, communicable and incommunicable, and then check off the attributes that we would know little or nothing about had God not ordained that sin enter his creation.

We would not know his mercy, his wrath, his justice, his love, his supremacy, etc. Our picture of God would be missing the 'weightiness' that we find in the story or redemption. We would not know God at all. What is the chief end of man? To glorify God and enjoy him forever.

Originally Posted by BJClark

If God created all things with a purpose, what was the purpose of Creating Lucifcer?

Was he created with a free-will? Or was He created specifically to rebel against God?

I realise we can only speculate as Scripture is not clear, but has anyone (other than me) ever wondered this?

I realize about the only scripture we have to go on are the statements "I WILL" but is it possible He created for that purpose?

Been hanging with Rick Warren too much? LOL

Originally Posted by BobVigneault

Lucifer was created, as all things were created, to demonstrate God's glory. Make a list of the attributes of God, communicable and incommunicable, and then check off the attributes that we would know little or nothing about had God not ordained that sin enter his creation.

We would not know his mercy, his wrath, his justice, his love, his supremacy, etc. Our picture of God would be missing the 'weightiness' that we find in the story or redemption. We would not know God at all. What is the chief end of man? To glorify God and enjoy him forever.

Originally Posted by BJClark

If God created all things with a purpose, what was the purpose of Creating Lucifcer?

To glorify God and enjoy him forever.

Was he created with a free-will? Or was He created specifically to rebel against God?

Created with free will just like man was.

I realise we can only speculate as Scripture is not clear, but has anyone (other than me) ever wondered this?

I realize about the only scripture we have to go on are the statements "I WILL" but is it possible He created for that purpose?

Read through James chapter 1. There is no possibility of God sinning or being the author of sin. Satan was created good just as all God's creatures were. But he was created mutable like us. And he made the same sinful choice we did. But we are shone mercy. Give thank to the Lord for he is good, his love endures forever!

Originally Posted by BobVigneault

Lucifer was created, as all things were created, to demonstrate God's glory. Make a list of the attributes of God, communicable and incommunicable, and then check off the attributes that we would know little or nothing about had God not ordained that sin enter his creation.

We would not know his mercy, his wrath, his justice, his love, his supremacy, etc. Our picture of God would be missing the 'weightiness' that we find in the story of redemption. We would not know God at all. What is the chief end of man? To glorify God and enjoy him forever.

Romans 18:16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.
Future Glory

18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

I believe God created Lucifer to make him the author of sin, and thus would use him as a fallen angel to accomplish His plan. Note that the supralapsarian scheme is true for angelic election, there is not disagreement among Reformed theologians about that.

Originally Posted by BJClark

If God created all things with a purpose, what was the purpose of Creating Lucifcer?

Was he created with a free-will? Or was He created specifically to rebel against God?

I realise we can only speculate as Scripture is not clear, but has anyone (other than me) ever wondered this?

I realize about the only scripture we have to go on are the statements "I WILL" but is it possible He created for that purpose?

Lucifer is actually a transliteration from the Latin Vulgate borrowed by the translators/editors of the 1611 KJV - there really is no individual with that name in the biblical account - The Satan is NEVER referred to by this title. Milton also popularizes it in Paradise Lost, books 3-4 - Christian's have, unfortunately, bought into the "myth". You might read Calvin on this issue - Isaiah 14.

Respectfully,
John

Originally Posted by Sydnorphyn

Originally Posted by BJClark

If God created all things with a purpose, what was the purpose of Creating Lucifcer?

Was he created with a free-will? Or was He created specifically to rebel against God?

I realise we can only speculate as Scripture is not clear, but has anyone (other than me) ever wondered this?

I realize about the only scripture we have to go on are the statements "I WILL" but is it possible He created for that purpose?

Lucifer is actually a transliteration from the Latin Vulgate borrowed by the translators/editors of the 1611 KJV - there really is no individual with that name in the biblical account - The Satan is NEVER referred to by this title. Milton also popularizes it in Paradise Lost, books 3-4 - Christian's have, unfortunately, bought into the "myth". You might read Calvin on this issue - Isaiah 14.

Respectfully,
John

Indeed, Isaiah 14 is about the pride of Nebuchadnezzar. Thanks for the helpful clarification.

Yep,

Lucifer = lux (light) + ferre (to bring/bear/carry)

John Brown of Haddington, Brown's Dictionary of Bible Characters:

[re ANGELS]These apostate spirits appear to have one chief, with whom, perhaps, their apostasy began, who was probably once an archangel in his happy estate. The rest are presented as his servants. He is also called the Devil, Satan, Beelzebub, prince of the power of the air, prince and god of this world. It was probably he who, in the form of a serpent, seduced our first parents, and received an additional curse on that account, to be effected chiefly through our redemption by Christ. It was probably he who attacked our Saviour in the desert elsewhere, and tempted him to the vilest sins. (Gen. 3; Matt. 4, 25:41; Luke 4; John 14:30)(p. 120)

DEVIL. See Satan

A fallen angel, especially the so-called chief of them, who is a malicious accuser of God and his people. (Rev. 12:9, 12) Devils were (and are) worshipped in the idols of the heathen and false religions. (Lev. 17:7; Deut. 32:17; Ps. 106:37; Rev. 9:20, 18:2). Devils themselves tremble at their view of the true God. (James 2:19) Wicked men are called devils; they resemble these evil spirits in malice and enmity against God and his people, and in reproach and slander of them, and are agents of Satan on earth. (John 6:70; 1 Tim. 3:11; Rev. 2:10)

Jesus was tempted over a period of 40 days and 40 nights by the devil. (Matt. 4:1-11, with parallels in other Gospels) He cast out devils. (Matt. 9:32-33, 12:22, 15:22, 17:18) He was accused of being possessed by the devil. (Matt. 9:32, 34; John 8:48) The Apostle Paul gives many warnings against the devil. (Eph. 4:27, 6:11; 1 Tim. 3:6-7; 2 Tim. 2:26) Exhortations about the devil are found in James 4:7 and 1 Pet. 5:8. Further facts about the devil are found in the book of Revelation: 12:9 (his fall from heaven), 12:12, 20:20 (his short time on earth), 20:10 (his final and eternal end). (p. 230)

LUCIFER

A brilliant star whose name was used for the King of Babylon, and referred to his glory. The passage is often used to describe the fall of Satan from heaven. Found only in Isaiah 14:12. (p. 419)

SATAN. See Angel, Devil

A name for the devil, revealing him as an inplacable enemy to the honour of God and the true interest of men. He tempted our first parents in Paradise, bereaved Job of his substance and health, causing his friends to reproach him, tempted David to seduce Bathsheba, and to number the Hebrews, and caused Ahab's prophets to induce him to go to war against Ramothgilead. (Gen. 3:1-5; Job 1:2, etc; 2 Sam. 12; 1 Kings 22; 1 Chron. 21) He tempted our Saviour to distrust, to suicide, and to devil-worship, tempted Judas to betray him, Peter to deny him, and tempted Ananias and his wife to tell lies to the Apostles concerning the price of their field. (Matt. 4:1-11, 16:23; John 13:27; Luke 22:3, 31; Acts 5:3)

Long has his power been established in the world, and, by the erection of the Assyrian, Persian, Greek, and especially, the Roman Empire, he attempted to strengthen his power against all attacks of the expected Messiah. However, God made them all contribute to the furtherance and spread of the gospel; and, by the preaching of the gospel, the working of miracles by Christ and His Apostles, and by the overturn of heathenism, his kingdom was overthrown. (Matt. 12:26; Luke 10:17-18; John 12:31, 16:11; Rev. 2:9)

Peter is called Satan because, in reproving Christ's intention to suffer, he did Satan's work, and under his direction. (Matt. 16:23) (p. 538)

NEOGILLIST:

So, God created Satan as a fall guy so that Satan would do what God was restrained from doing?

I assertively disagree with your wording and would point you to Patricks fine explanation to counter your explanation.

Originally Posted by Pergamum

NEOGILLIST:

So, God created Satan as a fall guy so that Satan would do what God was restrained from doing?

I assertively disagree with your wording and would point you to Patricks fine explanation to counter your explanation.

Yea, sort of. I heard this position first from a Reformed Baptist pastor. It makes total sense to me. From my understanding of God's sovereignty, the devil is like God's bulldog that He unleashes especially against wicked people, but not invariably (as was the case for Job). Take for instance
Timothy 2:26. I've heard many pastors and even theologians wrongly interpret this verse by thinking that 'his' refers to the devil's will. If you look up the Greek NT, Vines concordance or the Amplified version, it makes it clear that 'his' refers to God's will, which is consistent with our reformed understanding of God's sovereignty. (I don't know, there could be textual variants, of course). The devil is there to do God's sovereign will.

"24(A)The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, (B)able to teach, patient when wronged,

25(C)with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, (D)if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to (E)the knowledge of the truth,

26and they may come to their senses and escape from (F)the snare of the devil, having been (G)held captive by him to do his will. "

But it sounds like you say that God created him to do the evil that He cannot do...

It sounds like God could not do evil but wanted to, so He created middlemen who could manage this for him.


Satan was pure and holy but fell through his free will and now is God's enemy and tries to thward His plans. And He does oppose the plans of the saints, though this is only by God's allowance.

I prefer to speak of God's allowance of Satan's and Adam's sins.


There are dangers in the Supralapersian scheme, but perhaps this is for another thread...

Either way, we naturally tend to link the word "evil" with someone other than God directly, for it seems difficult to do otherwise. But, scripture speaks plainly of God doing evil. See Judges 9:23; I Sam. 16:14-16; 18:10; 19:9; II Sam. 12:11; I Kings: 21:21,29; II Kings 22:16; II Chron. 34:24,28; Jer. 11:17; and Prov. 16:4. But, in our limited minds, we find it hard to fathom how to reconcile God doing evil with his being good. We get confused in the definitions. We have to realize that we cannot define good by our perception of what good is or is not, because our "perceiver" (for lack of a better word) is too small for the task, and it is still corrupted. It is unable to comprehend how God can do both and yet be good, because it is incapable of doing so. Good is defined as an action performed by a good being. Therefore, we must conclude that, when God does something that we refer to as "evil", he is doing good because his being is good. He is, by definition, good. He is the definition of good. He defines good, not Webster's Dictionary; so, since his nature is good, the actions brought forth from his nature are good, whether words such as "good" or "evil" describe such actions. We who have been born again, however, have two natures, one evil and one good, and therefore cannot perform some actions and call them good entirely, yet we also cannot call them evil entirely, for our actions are always the fruit of both principles. Those not born again can only do evil, for they have only one principle within them, that being the principle of evil. Satan was a created being, just like Adam was, and therefore did not possess the heavenly, eternal nature of God inherent within him. The absence of the Spirit of God is evil, and so the explanation for Satan being evil and of Adam becoming evil when God withdrew his Spirit from him.

This is how I piece it together for now, with my still depraved mind.

Blessings!

God never does any sort of moral evil. Moral evil is a sin and God is all holy. TO say otherwise is very erronous.

God can decree a natural evil, such as an earthquake or tsunami, but there is a difference between a moral and a natural evil.

You wrote "The absence of the Spirit of GOd is evil.." what do you mean?

Genesis 50:20
As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

Originally Posted by moral necessity

Either way, we naturally tend to link the word "evil" with someone other than God directly, for it seems difficult to do otherwise. But, scripture speaks plainly of God doing evil. See Judges 9:23; I Sam. 16:14-16; 18:10; 19:9; II Sam. 12:11; I Kings: 21:21,29; II Kings 22:16; II Chron. 34:24,28; Jer. 11:17; and Prov. 16:4. But, in our limited minds, we find it hard to fathom how to reconcile God doing evil with his being good. We get confused in the definitions. We have to realize that we cannot define good by our perception of what good is or is not, because our "perceiver" (for lack of a better word) is too small for the task, and it is still corrupted. It is unable to comprehend how God can do both and yet be good, because it is incapable of doing so. Good is defined as an action performed by a good being. Therefore, we must conclude that, when God does something that we refer to as "evil", he is doing good because his being is good. He is, by definition, good. He is the definition of good. He defines good, not Webster's Dictionary; so, since his nature is good, the actions brought forth from his nature are good, whether words such as "good" or "evil" describe such actions. We who have been born again, however, have two natures, one evil and one good, and therefore cannot perform some actions and call them good entirely, yet we also cannot call them evil entirely, for our actions are always the fruit of both principles. Those not born again can only do evil, for they have only one principle within them, that being the principle of evil. Satan was a created being, just like Adam was, and therefore did not possess the heavenly, eternal nature of God inherent within him. The absence of the Spirit of God is evil, and so the explanation for Satan being evil and of Adam becoming evil when God withdrew his Spirit from him.

This is how I piece it together for now, with my still depraved mind.

Blessings!

"And God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the leaders of Shechem, and the leaders of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech" -Judges 9:23

"Now therefore behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the LORD has declared disaster for you." -1 Kings 22:23

"Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and a harmful spirit from the LORD tormented him." -1 Samuel 16:14

"The next day a harmful spirit from God rushed upon Saul, and he raved within his house while David was playing the lyre, as he did day by day. Saul had his spear in his hand." -1 Samuel 18:10

"Then a harmful spirit from the LORD came upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his spear in his hand. And David was playing the lyre." -1 Samuel 19:9

"Thus says the LORD, 'Behold, I will raise up evil against you out of your own house. And I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun." 2 Samuel 12:11



Just wanted to type out a few of those verses you quoted.

Here is a good article about the whole issue of a good God decreeing evil by John Piper. I read it last summer and thought it was pretty good. Of course, there must be bigger and more scholarly works written by Reformed theologians on it.

Is God Less Glorious Because He Ordained that Evil Be? :: Desiring God Christian Resource Library

Also, I do agree with Pergamum that it is preferrable to speak of God 'permitting' evil and the fall of Satan than causing it. There are actually some hypercalvinist websites that will teach that God is the author of sin and causes people to sin. Like Arminianism, hyper-Calvinism is an attempt to do away with different tensions concerning doctrines that we find throughout Scriptures. On one extreme, one strain of Pentecostalism will teach that God and the devil are at war like two war-lords, which is obviously a rejection of God's sovereignty, and on the other one strain of hyper-Calvinism teaches that the devil is God's puppet.

I guess accepting all the teachings of Scriptures despite these various tensions is what true faith is about.

Originally Posted by Neogillist

and on the other one strain of hyper-Calvinism teaches that the devil is God's puppet.

I find this true though. The evil one can only do what God has him do. ie Job. 12Then the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him."


5"(C)However, put forth Your hand now, and (D)touch his bone and his flesh; he will curse You to Your face."

6So the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, he is in your power, only spare his life."

Notice in each occurance, Satan tells God to put forth His (God's) hand. And God send Satan to put forth His(God's) hand for him. There is a literal puppet imagery here. God's hand is inside of Satan just as we use puppets today.

Nothing HC about this. 100% biblical

I didn't mean to redirect the thread. But, somehow the presence of evil has to be accounted for. If God was before all things, and God is sovereign, then where does the principle of evil come from? Did it exist with God from eternity? If so, did it come from outside of God or from within him? And, if it was formed by him, was it formed apart from his causing it to form? It cannot come from outside of his sovereignty, or else we have lost our definition of sovereingty.

My statement "the absence of the Spirit of God is evil," was a thought that came to mind while dwelling on the subject. It made sense to me, because it is the same way we define "darkness", "impurity", and so on. Darkness is, by definition, the absence of light. Imputity, by definition, is the absence of purity; and so on. In my mind, it would make sense to define evil by saying that the absence of good is evil; and, since God is the source, fountain, and definition of good, as Jesus said in Mt. 19:17: "There is only one who is good.", I would lean towards saying that the absence of God is evil. If good is a quality that only God has, (for scripture says "there is none good" - Rom. 3:10-18), if good resides in God only, then the absence of God is evil. So, since the Holy Spirit is God, it made sense to me to say that the absence of the Holy Spirit is evil. That's what I meant by that statement. Hope that clarifies my thoughts for you.

Also, I agree that prudence is demanded when speaking about such things to others. And, when much light from God is not given into a subject, few statements ought to be made regarding it.

Blessings to you!

Pergamum;

There are dangers in the Supralapersian scheme, but perhaps this is for another thread...

it could be discussed on this thread, I don't mind..I had a question so I asked, it was answered and I appreciate all the answers. Thank you

So if you want to further the discussion on a deeper level, I'm okay with that, I'll just read along...and continue to learn..no need to start another thread for that..so please discuss away..