Larry.
So your wife's in the "cage stage" huh? I'd love to read some of yr funny stories sometime. The thing that helped me the most, or the most recently, was when someone pointed out that all this "re-dedication", crisis-experience stuff, and struggling for "spirituality" as they describe it is "folk Christianity," it's works-righteousness to assume you can do anything to make God like you better or bless you more, it's syncretic & superstitious.
What a relief not to have to keep trying to get God to fix me!

__________________
The man who is disposed to think of his sin as a great calamity, rather than as a heinous crime, is not likely either to reverence God or to respect His law. - John Kennedy, 1873
Meg
Blog
Member, Intown Presbyterian Church,PCA, Portland, OR

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Oh, Meg, He'll do it anyway!

__________________
Ivan Schoen, Pastor * Maranatha Baptist Church, Poplar Grove, IL * http://maranatha-sbc.org/

"I want to assist churches and to assist pastors in training pastors. But, after fourteen years of service in this capacity, I am absolutely certain that the finest theological seminary on earth is absolutely incompetent at replicating the actual life of a Gospel congregation. I want to train a generation of pastors who will train pastors, and I want to help them in that task." --- Dr. R. Albert Mohler, President of THE Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, Louisville, KY

Yes, He does! I'm so glad He does!

__________________
The man who is disposed to think of his sin as a great calamity, rather than as a heinous crime, is not likely either to reverence God or to respect His law. - John Kennedy, 1873
Meg
Blog
Member, Intown Presbyterian Church,PCA, Portland, OR

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

I'm so glad I escaped that flame. Praise God. I was in a real epistemological bind as are all our Pentecostal, Charismatic, and Third-Wave bretheren.

Five years ago I didn't even know what Grace was. I had a warped view of God's Grace. I lived in constant fear of losing my salvation and was as double minded a young man that you would have ever met. I truly was like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind.

Praise God for his perfect and final Word!

__________________
Joseph Ringling
Husband to Juanita, Father to Joey, Jenna, and Timothy
Grace Reformed Baptist Church
Rockford, Illinois

Awesome. For me Calvinism actually helpd unravel some of my Charismatic beliefs. How could I explain the complete silence of charismata throughout Church History? Truly they either ceased due to the work of the spirit, or man's will can thwart God's desire to bless his church.

I think you are right Ian, becoming a Calvinist and being a student of history most of the Charismatic claims and teaching just didn't add up for me either. While I was Charismatic I never really questioned any of the teaching, when I became a Calvinist, it caused me to start thinking more systematically/logically.

__________________
Sean Jones
Covenant Presbyterian Church OPC
Fort Worth Texas

Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the Word of Truth.
2Timothy 2:15

Looking thru the Book of Acts last month I was struck by the fact that the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" did not seem to be a second experience in most cases; I can only think of 2, the saints at Samaria who did not receive it until Peter came to them (a redemptive-history issue, I think) and Paul, who may not actually have been converted on the Road to Damascus, but awakened. If so, if his conversion actually took place in Damascus when Ananias prayed for him, then that also was not a "second experience" but part of conversion. Where's that detective smiley?

__________________
The man who is disposed to think of his sin as a great calamity, rather than as a heinous crime, is not likely either to reverence God or to respect His law. - John Kennedy, 1873
Meg
Blog
Member, Intown Presbyterian Church,PCA, Portland, OR

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Ian! Guys! What are you talking about?? What ARE you reading? Church history speaks for itself!




The charismata have been historically documented throughout Church history! I took the liberty to compile a reference list from my own research of church history over the last several years. I even put them in chronological order for you and included the specific names of their texts or have indicated where you may find them. Now go hit the books!

Justin Martyr (100AD "“ 165AD): Dialogue with Trypho; The Second Apology of Justin
Irenaeus (125 "“ 200): Against Heresies
Tertullian (160 "“ 240): A Treatise on the Soul; Apologetic Works; Against Marcion; On Baptism; Against Praxeas

Origien (185 "“ 284): Against Celsus; De Principiis
Novatian (210 "“ 280): The Trinity
Cyprian (195 "“ 258): The Epistles of Cyprian
Antony (251 "“ 356): see Life of Antony by Athanasius
Pachomius (292 "“ 346): see Illustrious Men of the Church by Jerome & Gennadius
Hilarion (305 "“ 385): see The Life of Saint Hilarion by Jerome
Ambrose (340 "“ 397): Of the Holy Spirit
Jerome (347 "“ 420): The Life of Saint Hilarion
Augustine (354 "“ 430): City of God (see chapter "œConcering Miracles Which Were Wrought in Order That the World Might Believe in Chirst and Which Cease Not to be Wrought now That the World Does Believe"�

Benedict (480 "“ 547): The Rule of Benedict
Gregory the Great (540 "“ 604): Dialogues; Bede´s Ecclesiastical History of the English Nation
Bernard of Clairveaux (1090 "“ 1153): see Neander´s (he´s a Lutheran scholar) General History of the Christian Church

Hildegard of Bingen (1098 "“ 1179): see Schaff´s Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church

Dominic (1170 "“ 1221): see Leher´s Saint Dominic: Biographical Documents
Francis of Assisi (1181 "“ 1226): Butler´s Lives of the Saints (Thurston, Herbert, & Attwater ed.)
Vincent of Ferrier (1350 "“ 1419): Butler´s Lives of the Saints (Thurston, Herbert, & Attwater ed.)
Peter Waldo & the Waldenses (c. 1150 "“ 1217): see Muston´s A Complete History of the Waldenses and Their Colonies

All right, I carried you through to the Reformation. I listed below individuals/events from the Reformation on to the present for you to check out on your own, mostly in chronological order. Get back to me when you´ve done your homework!

The Anabaptists (you will find they were wrongly vilified because of being mistakenly associated with the fiasco at Munster), the Huguenots of the Cevennes Mountains (sometimes called "œThe French Prophets"�), George Fox & the Quakers, the Moravians, the Methodist Revival (bad theology, but God showed up), The Great Awakening, The Second Great Awakening, Barton Stone & the Cane Ridge Revival (charismata at a Presbyterian church!), Edward Irving & the Apostolic Catholic Church, Charles Finney (awful theology, but again God showed up), A.J. Gordon, Dwight L. Moody, Reuben A. Torrey, Charles Fox Parham/Bethel Bible College/the Pentecostal revival of the 1900s, Azusa Street Revival & Willaim Seymour, Parham & the Zion City Revival, F.F. Bosworth & John G. Lake´s ministries, Pandita Ramabai in India, Willis & Mary Anne Hoover in South America, T.T. Barratt in Europe, William Simpson in China, "œThe Healing Revival (including William Branham, Oral Roberts, T.L. & Daisy Osborn), The Latter Rain Revival, the Charismatic Renewal of the 1960s, Third Wave, Toronto Blessing, Brownsville/Pensacola Revival, and so forth.

__________________
Chuck Stoltz
Intercessory Missionary
International House of Prayer
Kansas City, Missouri

"Set me as a seal upon your heart, as a seal upon your arm; for love is as strong as death, jealousy as cruel as the grave; its flames are flames of fire, a most vehement flame. Many waters cannot quench love, nor can the floods drown it. If a man would give for love all the wealth of his house, it would be utterly despised." (Song of Solomon 7:6-7)

<<Charles Finney (awful theology, but again God showed up)>>

God "showed up"? Hmmm...I wonder.....

<<Oral Roberts>>

PLEASE!!!!

<<the Charismatic Renewal of the 1960s, Third Wave, Toronto Blessing, Brownsville/Pensacola Revival, and so forth.>>

It will be interesting to hear the responses to these movements.

[Edited on 1-16-2005 by Ivan]

__________________
Ivan Schoen, Pastor * Maranatha Baptist Church, Poplar Grove, IL * http://maranatha-sbc.org/

"I want to assist churches and to assist pastors in training pastors. But, after fourteen years of service in this capacity, I am absolutely certain that the finest theological seminary on earth is absolutely incompetent at replicating the actual life of a Gospel congregation. I want to train a generation of pastors who will train pastors, and I want to help them in that task." --- Dr. R. Albert Mohler, President of THE Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, Louisville, KY

Charismata are gifts of the HOLY Spirit, some of these movements just don't qualify. I think this list proves, however, that there have always been folks in the church who believe the sign gifts have not ceased. The question still remains; is this so?

__________________
The man who is disposed to think of his sin as a great calamity, rather than as a heinous crime, is not likely either to reverence God or to respect His law. - John Kennedy, 1873
Meg
Blog
Member, Intown Presbyterian Church,PCA, Portland, OR

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Hmm. No specifics...not surprised.

__________________
Chuck Stoltz
Intercessory Missionary
International House of Prayer
Kansas City, Missouri

"Set me as a seal upon your heart, as a seal upon your arm; for love is as strong as death, jealousy as cruel as the grave; its flames are flames of fire, a most vehement flame. Many waters cannot quench love, nor can the floods drown it. If a man would give for love all the wealth of his house, it would be utterly despised." (Song of Solomon 7:6-7)

You're right. The conversion of entire communities was probably just city-wide emotionalism.

__________________
Chuck Stoltz
Intercessory Missionary
International House of Prayer
Kansas City, Missouri

"Set me as a seal upon your heart, as a seal upon your arm; for love is as strong as death, jealousy as cruel as the grave; its flames are flames of fire, a most vehement flame. Many waters cannot quench love, nor can the floods drown it. If a man would give for love all the wealth of his house, it would be utterly despised." (Song of Solomon 7:6-7)

CC (and the rest of y'all),

Have you read The Religious Affections by Jonathan Edwards? If we evaluated conversion, and other religious experiences we believe in, by his principles, we would avoid much error, I think! BTW, he does not take an anti-emotional stance, and gives good explanations of how one can evaluate his own experience to see if it's the real thing.

I would say, CC, that God used Charles Finney and there probably were many real conversions. He spoke prophecy thru Baalam, and even Baalam's donkey, so why not?
The Apostle Paul said that people were preaching the Gospel out of spite, but he was happy as long as it was being preached. Finney's actual beliefs were heretical, but his preaching itself, in content anyway, was orthodox, from what I hear.

Do ya get the impression Finney ain't too popular in these parts?

__________________
The man who is disposed to think of his sin as a great calamity, rather than as a heinous crime, is not likely either to reverence God or to respect His law. - John Kennedy, 1873
Meg
Blog
Member, Intown Presbyterian Church,PCA, Portland, OR

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

I am by no means an advocate of Finney's theology. A darn mess, it is!

__________________
Chuck Stoltz
Intercessory Missionary
International House of Prayer
Kansas City, Missouri

"Set me as a seal upon your heart, as a seal upon your arm; for love is as strong as death, jealousy as cruel as the grave; its flames are flames of fire, a most vehement flame. Many waters cannot quench love, nor can the floods drown it. If a man would give for love all the wealth of his house, it would be utterly despised." (Song of Solomon 7:6-7)

That's a possibility!

Thousands supposedly get "saved and healed" all the time at Benny Hinn crusades. If you saw the HBO special or have investigated the ministry of Hinn you would find that he never comfirms any of the magnificent miracles that you see on the tv show.

I don't know what kind of gospel Finney preached but I do know the kind that Hinn does and it's not the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For example, he goes to a place like Gahna and preaches a gospel that guarantees healing and prosperity and then actually demonstrates this supposed power of God by signs and miracles. Then they show people actually trying to push each other over to get to the altar to get saved. Why? Are they responding to the true Gospel and the call of the Holy Spirit or are they being deceived by a false Cross-less gospel that promises everything but delivers nothing?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that things aren't always what they seem.

__________________
Joseph Ringling
Husband to Juanita, Father to Joey, Jenna, and Timothy
Grace Reformed Baptist Church
Rockford, Illinois

Well, if we're going to judge results, then you shouldn't forget the huge amounts of backsliding a few years sometimes months later in the Northeast where Finney ministered, where to this day those very communities are hardened to the gospel. Yes, much of it was city wide emotionalism. In fact, toward the later middle portion of Finney's career, he was beginning even to doubt himself what his measures were doing in the long run. See Ian Murray's Revival and Revivalism.

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Patrick
OPC
MDiv, RTS Jackson.

"He does well, that discourses of Christ; but he does infinitely better, that by experimental knowledge, feeds and lives on Christ." Thomas Brooks.

One might add that the theology of the cross (the true Gospel) which is the way of suffering is in antagonistic tension with the theology of glory (seeking signs and wonders, spectacular displays, health and wealth, perfectionism (Finney)) which seeks to "œsee"� God as Luther put it "œin His naked glory"�. It is also very telling that numerous times Jesus instructed those to whom a miracle sign was performed upon to "œnot tell anyone."� Even more, He said that a wicked and perverted generation seeks a sign but will not receive one. Paul said that the Jew seeks a sign but that he (Paul) preached Christ and Him crucified.

In any ministry one must look to where that ministry is pointing the eyes"¦to Christ or something else.

People like Luther, Calvin and Bonhoeffer (Nazis Germany) under various tremendous trials themselves rightly understood the necessity of realizing that God is revealed singularly where He may be found, in the midst of suffering, pointing one to the mercy at the suffering cross of Christ, Who is the merciful revelation of God. To seek God´s glory otherwise is to in reality ask for His consuming fire which no sinner may nakedly view and live and to have it come down and judge one´s self. It must be added that we all do indeed struggle with this desire to see the naked glory of God, it is part of our fallen remaining flesh.

The theology of the cross comes out most clear in times of trial, suffering and persecution whether inner or external. That is its true encouragement comes out - while the one being pressed upon to disbelieve by the suffering. This is were faith shines and purifies. A person under trial or persecution is under the pressure from the same to believe that God has indeed abandoned them (e.g., the dereliction of Christ at the cross) or that God does not exist (unbelief), yet the Christian rightly taught and encouraged must realize that this is not so and even further that in this very trial (whatever it is) in which God appears to have abandoned them is when He is the closest to them. And thus they can cry out to Him, because suffering is for the Christian as he/she is Christ"˜s Who suffered and suffering drives the Christian fleeing to Christ alone. EVEN though the pain of the trial is real and mourning over it and suffering within in it is right, the strength to "˜bear up under"˜ (patience) comes from the faith driven realization that one will suffer and God has not abandoned the Christian. Look at Job for example. The theology of glory would abandon this seeking the "œhigh times"� and displays of power and wonder, prosperity, wealth, health, numbers and perfectionism. This is one reason why the cross of Christ is foolishness to those who are perishing but salvation to those being saved. To the perishing this looks like foolishness and not glory and fame at all. What will the one seeking signs and wonders, perfectionism, numbers, health and wealth do when trial and/or persecution comes? How will they "œbear up under"� it when the emotions are gone and dried up, and the spectacular no longer is there? How then will they "œbear up under"� it in the Valley of the Shadows of Death?

The theology of glory tends to look for the "˜big displays´, perfectionism, higher Christian attainment, great wonders and signs and tremendous numbers of converts during revivals and preachings. The later, for example, would and indeed do view few, one or none conversions after preaching as a failure, but see great numbers coming forward as a tremendous success. A quick story to relate: A friend of mine ran into a traveling "œevangelist"� at his church after the sermon to discuss the guys heavy Finnyite "˜will pushing"˜, "˜pump priming"˜, "˜emotion button pushing´ 45 minute alter call tactics in order to get the numbers forward. The guys response was telling. He said to my reformed friend, "œI suppose you consider it a good day if you get one or two converts, I don´t."� In fact he considered it a failure. I told my friend that he is looking for displays which may or may not mean anything at all, and not the true work of God. Furthermore, when he was calling them to the alter he was NOT calling them empty handed to Christ alone but to a work they must do. Evenmore, if he realized that every true regeneration of the soul, even one, is nothing less than an act of re-creation on the part of God"¦nothing less than God calling into being that which is not (the soul dead in sin to life)"¦if he truly realized this would he then have "˜yawned´, as he has at "˜low numbers´, when God said "œLet there be light"� because God only did it once?

In short God is closest when He seems to be no where near (suffering, trials and persecution). Or that like Christ, Christ´s people will suffer trials and persecutions (inward and outward). As Christ cried out upon the cross "œMy God, My God why hast though forsaken Me"�, so we too might expect to make this cry in various ways.

Blessings,

Larry

__________________
Larry Hughes
Geologist
Tates Creek PCA
Lexington, KY
PCA

Galatians 4:29, "But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also."

Amen, Larry. Great thoughts.

__________________
Josh Hicks, Chloë's Dad
Attending CCRPC, Member of TRBC
Reformers & Puritans -lllll- Puritan Pub
Board Rules - Signature Rules - Suggestion Box

Go Larry! Go Larry! Go Go Go Larry!

__________________
The man who is disposed to think of his sin as a great calamity, rather than as a heinous crime, is not likely either to reverence God or to respect His law. - John Kennedy, 1873
Meg
Blog
Member, Intown Presbyterian Church,PCA, Portland, OR

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Larry,
What an excellent and wonderful post! It sounds like you have done a LOT of thinking on the subject "The theology of the cross vs. the theology of glory". Thanks for passing the results of that on to all of us. I may just have to print that out and hang on to it!

__________________
Christopher Hinton
Northland, A Church Distributed;
Altamonte Springs, FL