Needed: Good lay-level continuationist statement on the place of tongues in worship

panta dokimazete · #1 (**permalink**) 12-15-2008, 02:13 PM

...or tongues in general.

Working on a position statement for our church - I understand the cessationist position and have read and studied a good bit on the continuationist position, but I'd like to know if there are some pithy and well written statements out there for perusal.

I am a big proponent of R&D - rip off and duplicate!

Thanks in advance for your help

Jimmy the Greek · #2 (**permalink**) 12-15-2008, 02:30 PM

Here is a statement on Spiritual Gifts in general. It doesn't demand a cessationist position, but presents a level of discernment I think is biblical. However, regarding your request, this doesn't address "tongues in worship" specifically:

"Spiritual gifts are enriched capacities for service given in Christ Jesus to believers for the building up of the body of Christ, the church. Our exercise of these spiritual gifts is nothing more or less than Christ ministering through and to His body. These enriched capacities manifest themselves in areas such as teaching, preaching, service, evangelism, helping, mercy, giving, discernment, administration, exhortation, and leadership; all for the work of service, edification, and unity in the body. No one is gifted in all areas, but each believer is gifted in at least one area. The more extraordinary gifts such as miracles, healing, and tongues are not essential for the normal function of the body. Rather, they are sign gifts used by God primarily for purposes of authentication. The manifestation of these particular gifts today should be accepted as genuine only so far as they agree with Scriptural teaching and example, as with any gift. 1 Cor. 1:4-7, Eph.4:7-16, Rom. 12:4-8, 1 Cor. 12:4-31, 1 Cor. 14:27-33"

MrMerlin777 · #3 (**permalink**) 12-15-2008, 02:35 PM

Try this website maybe they have somthing that you may be able to use.

Association of Charismatic Reformed Churches, including calvinistic churches and non cessationist churches

larryjf · #4 (**permalink**) 12-15-2008, 03:40 PM

Sovereign Grace Ministries says the following...

Quote:

In addition to effecting regeneration and sanctification, the Holy Spirit also empowers believers for Christian witness and service. While all genuine believers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit at conversion, the New Testament indicates the importance of an ongoing, empowering work of the Spirit subsequent to conversion as well. Being indwelt by the Spirit and being filled with the Spirit are theologically distinct experiences. The Holy Spirit desires to fill each believer continually with increased power for Christian life and witness, and imparts his supernatural gifts for the edification of the Body and for various works of ministry in the world. All the gifts of the Holy Spirit at work in the church of the first-century are available today, are vital for the mission of the church, and are to be earnestly desired and practiced.

to which they link a pdf file annotation...
http://www.sovereigngraceministries....oly_spirit.pdf

lynnie · #5 (**permalink**) 12-15-2008, 04:12 PM

Try Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology.

GMcClain20 · #6 (**permalink**) 12-15-2008, 04:28 PM

You might try Sam Storms treatment of the Spiritual Gifts.

Part 1
Part 2

After addressing 6 cessasionist arguments he lays out 5 reasons why he thinks the gifts are for today (at the end of part 2).

FenderPriest · #7 (**permalink**) 12-15-2008, 04:30 PM

I did a little work on the place of the gift of tongues in public worship:
Tongues and Prophesy
Tongues and Prophesy Part II

My general position boils down to this: Tongues, when spoken in public, must be translated by someone gifted with interpretation. The texts about these gifts seem to indicate that the person with the tongue should be able to know when someone has the gift of interpretation, and may even possess the gift themselves. If that's the case, since a public tongue is to be a prophetic word (prophetic gifting, not office) they should just translate it and give it themselves. That's kind of where a pastor and I talked about the use of the gift functioning in public worship. Maybe that's helpful, maybe not. Your boy Mark Driscoll's got some work on this stuff on his websites, that may help.

panta dokimazete · #8 (**permalink**) 12-15-2008, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lynnie

Try Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology.

I have and it's good for in depth but I am looking for something pretty high level, thanks, though!

**Herald** · #9 (**permalink**) 12-15-2008, 06:34 PM

A slight rabbit trail... I've always thought the sign gifts create a caste system in Christianity. The have's and the have nots. I know that's not an exegetical argument, but it's the end result.

GMcClain20 · #10 (**permalink**) 12-15-2008, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herald

A slight rabbit trail... I've always thought the sign gifts create a caste system in Christianity. The have's and the have nots. I know that's not an exegetical argument, but it's the end result.

To add to your aside: When in the pentecostal expressions of Christianity I noticed that ones experience was not regarded highly unless it was of the miraculous sort. If what you experienced was one of the biblical miraculous gifts it must have been a visit from God. The result was there was almost no place for regular spiritual experience, i.e. prayer without visions, church without tongues or prophecy, etc. There certainly seemed to be a caste system, but it was more personal IMO. I felt like my spiritual life was poor, without God's power or blessing, and I also felt like I was sub-christian. Thankfully I found God's grace!

panta dokimazete · #11 (**permalink**) 12-15-2008, 07:18 PM

Wayne Grudem acknowledges false castes in his systematic.

**PuritanCovenanter** · #12 (**permalink**) 12-15-2008, 07:39 PM

Sorry but here is the non... Couldn't resist.

It is taken from my cradle churches contemporary Confession of faith called the Hampton Roads Confession of Faith.

Hampton Roads Confession of Faith

Quote:

THE CHARISMATIC MOVEMENT

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world."
(1 John 4:1)
__________________________________________________ ______________________

A - Definition - The Greek word "charisma" means spiritual gift. Since all Bible-believing Christians believe in spiritual gifts, we may all, in a sense, be called charismatics. All Christians are not, however, in agreement over whether all of the gifts were continued after the days of the Apostles… or, if they were continued, upon how they should be exercised by modern Christians. With minor variations, nearly all who call themselves charismatics believe that all of the gifts, with the possible exception of apostle, are for believers today. They also believe that they have experienced a second work of grace, called the baptism in/of/with the Holy Spirit, proven by their speaking with tongues. They believe that every believer can and should experience that "second baptism". Other 'gifts' valued highly among charismatics include interpretation of tongues, healings, miracles, prophecy, and the word of knowledge. Some charismatics also practice what they call dancing in the Spirit and being slain in the Spirit.
Forerunners of modern charismatics were the Montanists, who followed Montanus of Phrygia about 150 AD, and much later, the Irvingites, who followed Edward Irving in England about 1822. In America, similar beliefs and practices were observed by Armenian immigrants in Topeka, Kansas, in 1901 and by those in the Azuza Street Mission in Los Angeles, California, in 1906. Between that time and the present, American charismatics were generally found in "Pentecostal", "Holiness", or "Assembly of God" churches. The movement now has within its ranks Episcopalians, Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, Independents, Roman Catholics, and others. The broad dissemination of charismatic doctrine, and the apparent consensus of practice among charismatics of all denominations, is attributable to their widespread use of the medium of television. Though students of Church history call them "Neo-Pentecostalists", to avoid confusion we will hereafter call them what they call themselves - "charismatics".

1 Corinthians 12:1-11
__________________________________________________ ______________________

B - The Baptism - The Scripture teaches that when we are "born from above" we are baptized by one Spirit into the very body of Christ, the Church, no matter what our background, nationality, sex, or status. If we are not so "baptized" we do not yet belong to Christ. Our baptism in water is our witness before God, angels and men, that we have experienced this spiritual baptism. We strongly disagree with the doctrine of most charismatics, that a person can be saved by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ… and at some later time, be baptized "in the Holy Spirit". Their "second baptism" doctrine has brought confusion and disunity into the body of Christ. It has separated the sheep from their shepherds, and produced a 'double-tier Christianity… the "haves" and the "have nots". We conclude that 'second baptism theology' is either a doctrine of devils or, at best, a product of the mind of man.

Matthew 28:18-20 1 Corinthians 12:13 Romans 8:9, 23
1 Timothy 4:1
__________________________________________________ ______________________

C - The Issue of Revelation - "God told me", or some variant thereof, is frequently heard among charismatics. When it is employed to justify some action they have taken, or some belief they hold, reasoning with them from Scripture becomes futile. Who needs a book when God has spoken to one directly? Such exaltation of experience at the expense of Bible truth has led many charismatics into false doctrine, and some very bad practices. Holy Scripture stands forever exalted above human thoughts and human experiences and is not to be interpreted by them. Concerning guidance, Christians should prayerfully weigh their subjective impressions, which may or may not be from God, against the Scriptures, godly counsel, providential circumstances, and inner peace (or lack thereof) before acting on them. The Holy Spirit is not the only one who can speak to us.

Jeremiah 23:28 2 Peter 1:20 Psalm 119:105, 133
Proverbs 12:15 Proverbs 20:18 Genesis 24:27
Isaiah 32:17 & 30:21 2 Corinthians 11:14
__________________________________________________ ______________________

D - Doubtful Miracles and Prophecies - While we strongly desire to see God's power manifested through miracles in our day, we cannot help but notice that the 'miracles' claimed by modern charismatics are noticeably different from the miracles of the first century. In the infant Church, blind people suddenly saw… crippled people suddenly walked… lunatics were suddenly rational… and dead people suddenly lived! Skeptical people were literally forced to believe by the miracles of the early Church… but people are asked to believe the miracles performed by modern charismatic leaders, and chastised for unbelief if they do not. The more spectacular miracles claimed are always off in another geographical location, or are otherwise not verifiable. Concerning "prophecies" given in a 'tongue' and later interpreted, we cannot help but be skeptical when a 'tongue' of twenty-five words is followed by an interpretation of fifty words… when no two words are used twice in the 'tongue' and yet the same word is used repeatedly in the interpretation… and when the interpretation (presumably for the sake of those present) is given in archaic language ("Yea, my people…" "I am with thee"… or "thou shalt build me…", etc. We conclude that much of the modern charismatic movement is flesh and not spirit.

Exodus 7:11-12 Matthew 7:22
__________________________________________________ ______________________

E - Balance - Though we do not call ourselves "Charismatics" and though we focus upon seeking the Giver rather than His gifts, let us not swing like a pendulum to lifeless orthodoxy. God's gifts are precious and the best gifts, those that build up the Church, are to be desired. Let us remember that, though we are not a part of modern "Neo-Pentecostalism", our warfare is not with people, but with "seducing spirits" and "doctrines of devils". We do not worship in a perfect Church, nor do we worship God perfectly. Let us learn what we can from those who call themselves charismatics, refuse that which is false, and teach them the way of God more perfectly. Let us further remember the ancient dictum:
"In essentials, unity
In doubtful matters, liberty.
In all things, charity."

John 9 Acts 3:1-12 Matthew 10:5-8
Deuteronomy 18:20-22 1 Thessalonians 5:19-22 1 Timothy 4:1

MrMerlin777 · #13 (**permalink**) 12-15-2008, 08:13 PM

I have a copy of that confession too bro.

Hampton Roads Confession, good stuff.

Joe Gwynn handed it to me the first Sunday I went to Kempsville Chapel.

That was years ago. I still have it.

Leslie · #14 (**permalink**) 12-16-2008, 01:00 PM

I second Sam Storms. He's balanced, has a high view of scripture. He has a high view of the sovereignty of God which is sorely needed in the context of continualism.

CDM · #15 (**permalink**) 12-16-2008, 01:37 PM

Since we're on this topic, I've aksed many times if someone could provide a post- apostolic, documented, and biblical account for the tongues phneomenon we read about in Scripture.

I figure this thread will start to full up with Continuationists... so help a brother out.

FenderPriest · #16 (**permalink**) 12-16-2008, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mangum

Since we're on this topic, I've aksed many times if someone could provide a post- apostolic, documented, and biblical account for the tongues phneomenon we read about in Scripture.

I figure this thread will start to full up with Continuationists... so help a brother out.

Nothing comes to mind at the moment - which doesn't say much. However, here's a little excert from Carson's book, Showing the Spirit on the issue of modern tongues that may be of interest. Carson says that there is evidence to say that the "tongues of angels" could have been understood to actually be angelic (non-human) languages due to some references in the Jewish literature at the time. His footnote on this issue reads as follows, “Some cite Rev. 14:2-3; H.L. Strack and P. Billerback, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Midrasch, 5 vols. (Munichen: Beck, 1922-28) 3:449-50; Ascension of Isaiah 7:15-37. But the most impressive parallel is Testament of Job 48-50, where Job’s daughters speak in the dialects of various classes of angels” (Carson, 58)."

Maybe that heps... I don't know.

MrMerlin777 · #17 (**permalink**) 12-16-2008, 01:59 PM

My mental jury has been out for years on the subject of continuation vs cessation.

I refer to myself as cautious when asked about the issue from either side. I'm fairly certain that most of the blather that I've been exposed to in my experience is not of the Holy Ghost. But, I'm not entirely convinced by the usual cessationist argumentation either.

I can worship alongside cessationists and continuationists with equal enthusiasm.

Leslie · #18 (**permalink**) 12-16-2008, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mangum

Since we're on this topic, I've aksed many times if someone could provide a post- apostolic, documented, and biblical account for the tongues phneomenon we read about in Scripture.

I figure this thread will start to full up with Continuationists... so help a brother out.

Which tongues phenomenon? The one at Pentecost or one of the phenomena (the numbers vary according to expositors) described in 1 Corinthians? These seem to be different phenomena in some respects. Tongues seem to be just one particular variety of general supernatural phenomena in church contexts.

I don't remember the references but there have been documented cases of persons spontaneously speaking an unknown (to them) language with understanding, in contexts of presenting the gospel to someone with no common language. In one other case it was a Christian speaking an unknown language to his captors when he and others were severely threatened.

Most, if not all of the reasonably-credible claims for signs/wonders/miracles of all sorts in the post-apostolic age occur in the context of either the gospel entering a new frontier or in the context of intense persecution. The church historian, Schaff, documents a number of early church fathers reporting this very thing. Even Dr. Joe Moorecraft, the church historian/Presbyterian popular with PB stalwarts speaks of authentic prophecies and miraculous protections during the persecutions of the Scottish Covenenters. In my opinion the line between open-minded cessationism and moderate continualism is mighty blurred.

***Semper Fidelis*** · #19 (**permalink**) 12-16-2008, 05:24 PM

It's funny that I was reflecting on the continuation of Spiritual Gifts today as I was meditating on the Benedictus. There is a consistent reaction that emerges in the Scriptures whenever the mighty acts of God are on display among the people of God that is universally missing from every modern display of "gifts" that I have witnessed.

Fear.

This board is not the appropriate place to vet Continuationist statements of faith.