Today we hath a bible study meeting from ourt church. You must understand that iam coming from a evagelical (non reformed) church, and we discussed the topic of tongues, and so i shared my of being a cessationist.

Now one of the church memebrs said that she heard stories of missionaries who went to unknown tribes and there they spoke in tongues in their own language?
What must we think about this ? Has anyone heard this before, and does anyone has some critics about this ? Any comments would be helpfull!

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* Ralph Wilms (7-10-1974)
* Church : Christengemeente Roermond (The Netherlands)
* 1729 Goat Yard Declaration of Faith & 1646 Baptist Confession of faith

"To our mind, either everything or nothing must be held in subjection to the will and providence of God. Even the wickedness of ungodly men is restricted by predestination, so that the wrath of man shall praise God, and the remainder of wrath He will restrain." - GILBERT BEEBE (1800-1881)

Are you referring to

a) ecstatic utterances, or

b) being able to effectively communicate across language barriers?

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Chris Latch
Corinth MS
Crossroads church - SBC
Evangelism leader

Context, especially "in their own language," suggests that he's referring to communciating across language barrier (with 'their' referring to the language of the tribe, not the missionaries.).

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Davidius
Husband of Emily
Member of All Saints Anglican Church - Chapel Hill (AMiA / Anglican Church of North America)
Student: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, German and Classics

Right, as Chris said, what exactly are you referring to? Most of my Christian life I've heard the urban legends about missionaries speaking in tongues (not knowing what they were saying) and the natives hearing them preach the gospel. Of course these are always stories that the people heard from someone else or read somewhere, but never directly from anyone that it happened to or who witnessed it (as is always the case with urban legends).

I place those stories flatly in the same category as the story I've heard dozens of times about the soldiers busting into a secret house-church in a country closed to the gospel. The story goes that they tell everyone that whoever denies Christ can leave and the rest will be killed. Then, when the others leave, the soldiers drop their guns and say to the rest, "we are Christians and had to be sure that only true Christians remained before risking out lives and coming into this church." Of course the story is made up and has been circulating for decades about any of a dozen countries.

Now, as to being given the ability actually to speak another language that the person never learned...I'm skeptical, but that's a subject for a debate about the cessation of gifts. I will say, however, that I did actually meet a missionary years ago who clearly spoke Spanish, and who said that he never learned it. He said that he went on a mission trip with someone and instantly was able to speak the language fluently and immediately changed his life and moved there and ministered there from then on...saying that before long he was actually more comfortable speaking Spanish than English.

Now, he was either lying and he really did learn Spanish before going or he was telling the truth. I have no possible way of knowing which is true--I had no contact with the man before or after meeting him on that occasion. Anecdotal evidence is certainly not a legitimate basis for doctrine though. That's the methodology of false prophets and Word Faith people.

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Michael Mason (a.k.a. Dwimble)
Fort Worth PCA
Fort Worth, Texas
www.dwimble.com

What i mean is that the missionaries started to speak in an unknown tongue towards that tribe, and that language of these tongues was the language of that tribe. That is what they say happen (sometimes) in the mission field ?????

'they say'

I had a friend who used to preface everything he said with 'they say'. It allows you to tell a story without being pinned down as to its accuracy.

I've heard a similar story from here in America. Some sailors from russia were here in port and attended a seaman's ministry and heard the Gospel in their own language, and were converted.

Could it happen? Of course.

Does Scriptural evidence and historical evidence indicate that it is a phenomena we should expect, and that we should assume to be real upon hearing reports of it? No.

I've also heard stories of missionsries finding people who had dreamed of Jesus, etcetera. I've heard stories of people in Asia being raised from the dead. If I saw it happening, I supposed I'd 'go with it', but until then, I'm a bit skeptical.

Read Augustine. I'm quite skeptical about this great theologian's accounts concerning the healing powers of relics. How much more am I going to doubt the tales of some anonymous missionary?

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Scott Roper
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian Church (PCA)
Winston-Salem, NC
scottandjenny.ws

If true this would undermine Paul's argument in Romans 10:14,15.

How so?

If I dream of the perfect lunch, it helps me choose what to order (when I see my dream lunch on the menu) but it doesn't actually feed me...

I'm curious how such a dream can possibly be "not revelation."

Paul's argument askes the rhetorical question "how are they to hear without someone preaching?" The answer, of course, is "they can't." A dream containing the Word would contradict this. This is not at all like the dream to go meet a preacher who will then tell the person about the Word.

As for an explanation for this phenomenon, a person hears about Jesus from a missionary and out of excitement reinterprets a dream he had before to have referred to this Jesus. Others, not wanting to be left out, also claim to have such dreams. A large percentage of missionaries are Pentecostal, so they only encourage such behavior. Even cessationists are slow to correct such experiences as they don't wan't to lose a potential convert or appear to be impious.

How many Pentecostals are there in general compared to Reformed? This would be my first response. Secondly, Pentecostals don't care about sound doctrine and the purity of the church. Since they don't have to study, they have plenty of resources to spend all their time "preaching the Gospel" (which is often not even really preaching the Gospel). Also, Pentecostalism is rife with Gnosticism. When I was a Charismatic I thought my life didn't count for anything unless I were to become a missionary/pastor. The Creation and normal life are scorned as being unspiritual and generally a waste of time.

Let's not forget that there are Reformed missionary societies.

I had someone tell me the other day 'I'd rather my kids be charasmatic than reformed'.

After reading your post, I think I know why.....

What do you mean?

I mean that you painted a really nasty caracature there, and in doing so, played perfectly into the picture that many non-reformed people paint of reformed people.

It's bad enough trying to fight such stereotypes without having to see reformed people reinforcing them.

I remember my time in that type of thing and this mirrors it pretty well. Look at TBN

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Doug
Baptist
Hemet, Ca
Old Time Radio Podcast

Chris,

No offense, but I really don't think you have any idea what you're talking about. What exactly is your experience with Pentecostalism? And what exactly did I say that was a caricature? I've done missionary work with Pentecostals in Russia, India and Germany. I've been a part of multiple charismatic groups here in the States and read plenty of their "literature". I have propogated no stereotype and I really don't care what Charismaniacs think about Reformed churches or people. For many of them it's "mean" to question anything so their opinion of my evaluation means nothing to me. Have you seen "Jesus Camp"? If not, you need to. What it shows is by no means an isolated phenomenon.

Enough said.

As far as it relates to Pentecostalism and many other "charismaniacs" (to borrow your facetious word), I tend to agree with you for the most part. However, I think we should be careful that we don't throw everyone who doesn't believe that 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 refers to the closing of the canon into the same boat. After all, holding that view should never be taken to imply that you agree with the likes of extremist wackos like Benny Hinn or Kenneth Hagin or thieves like Robert Tilton and W.V. Grant. Well, no more than being a cessationist should imply that you agree with all the wackos and walking dead on that side.

It is interesting you bring that up. I was just thinking the same thing. I spent several years in a Pentacostal church, that brought back a lot of bad memories. It reminds me more of a pagan ritual than true christianity, it is all emotionalism. It is sad to say, but I bet the kids will wind up falling away from the faith when they get older, the kid with the rat tail looked like he might want Ted Haggards job though, (Maybe he was a Jedi, they had rat tails). Watching that made me think, "Wow these people are brainwashed," but that was me once. Sadly those people are right here in my home town.
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Erick Bohndorf, Redeemer Presbyterian PCA
http://qayaqtraveler.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/pr...90&ref=profile
Here is what I have seen to be good and fitting: to eat, to drink and enjoy oneself in all one’s labor in which he toils under the sun during the few years of his life which God has given him; for this is his reward. Ecclesiastes

I think most have probably deceived themselves. I don't see such phenomenon as any different than Romish claims of apparitions of Mary or the Mormon burning in the bosom.

Just to clarify, I was contrasting the two types of dreams as being quite different.

Well said, Trevor.

Sometimes, some 'reformed' are more HYPERCALVINISTIC in how they handle evangelism, than biblical.

On the topic at hand.....a bit that I wrote earlier tonight.

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K. Joel Gilliard, Husband of Danielle since 7/11/09 (I married up!)
Theologically Correct dot Com
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In spite of what I said about the "Jesus Camp" people, the Pentacostals do seem to be more zealous for evangelism. They are exited about what they have and they want to tell people. In my limited expereience with Refomed people, they spend a lot of time theologizing about the correct way to evangelize but don't ever go and do it. It just doesn't seem to be a priority with them, at first that seemed frustrating, then I started to believe it myself. I presented ideas that I learned while a Pentacostal and Baptist and they just were not interested, they liked tearing down why those methods were bad instead. One guy even told me to just sit there in my pew and be quite. Their method of evangelism seems to be having children and teaching them catechism and hope that they grow up and have children and do the same.

Because of the way I was raised and the curcumstances I was in, I came to Christ because I had a dream anout Jesus that got me interested and then sought out a friend of mine's dad who was a pastor and began my Christian walk that way. I think the Charismatics and Pentacostals have a purpose.