Thread: Leading of the Holy Spirit?

This post is based on a conversation in another thread. If one is a strict cessationist, does it automatically follow that there is no such thing as a prodding or leading of the Spirit? A few examples...

Mary is driving along when Deborah (a fellow church member) comes to mind. Deborah is suffering from an illness and Mary acts on this thought to pay Deborah a visit in order to encourage her.

Phil is sitting on a park bench and notices a young man alone on the the bench next to him. Taking advantage of the opportunity, Phil strikes up a conversation and is able to share the gospel with the young man.

Andrew has noticed that a Christian friend of his has been acting out of character lately. A bit short of temper, depressed and sorrowful. Andrew is burdened for his friend and convinces him to stop at the local coffee house for a cup. They talk and Andrew's friend confesses he and his wife are having marital problems. Andrew's involvement allows help to begin for his friend.

What do we make of situations such as these? There has been no divine revelation or word from God. No prophecies. No tongues. Each person found themselves moved in their heart to act in some way. Coincidence? Or does the Spirit "prompt" believers into action? As Reformed believers we all agree that God has revealed Himself through His word. Can the Spirit still prompt or move a person to act in accordance with the Word?

My thoughts are, absolutely! Christ promised that the Holy Spirit would guide us (John 16:5-11), and such guidance isn't revelation, it's God using means to work amongst His people.

Theognome

Bill, John Murray wrote an article about it. You can read it here. Mark Jones has posted last year about it on his blog too. You can read it here

Carlos, you linked Charles Biggs webiste! Cool! Charles and I were neighbors. He lived right on my block and I enjoyed chatting with him numerous times. I think he is a pastor in Virginia someplace. I have to get back in touch with him. I don't believe he knows I became a Reformed Baptist.

Originally Posted by CarlosOliveira

Bill, John Murray wrote an article about it. You can read it here. Mark Jones has posted last year about it on his blog too. You can read it here

Yes! Exactly!

“The moment we desire or expect or think that a state of our consciousness is the effect of a direct intimation of us of the Holy Spirit’s will, or consists in such an intimation and is therefore in the category of special direction from him, then we have given way to the notion of special, direct, detached communication from the Holy Spirit. And this, in respect of its nature, belongs to the same category as belief in special revelation." (188)"

I think we can consider these as falling within the Providence of God who works together all things for our good:

Calvin notes:

4. First, then, let the reader remember that the providence we mean is
not one by which the Deity, sitting idly in heaven, looks on at what is
taking place in the world, but one by which he, as it were, holds the
helms and overrules all events. Hence his providence extends not less
to the hand than to the eye. [131] When Abraham said to his son, God
will provide (Gen. 22:8), he meant not merely to assert that the future
event was foreknown to Gods but to resign the management of an unknown
business to the will of Him whose province it is to bring perplexed and
dubious matters to a happy result.

I'm uncomfortable with the common language that many use today: "The Spirit laid this on my heart to..."

I don't think it's ours to know the specific mechanism that God directs circumstances and it is not unreasonable to assume the Spirit dwelling within conforms our thoughts and directs our ways but, in particular circumstances, we are not given the mind of God to know how the Providence worked together but simply that He was certainly active in bringing about every event.

In fact, when we have a full appreciation for the superintendent activity of God then we realize He uses the agency of Satan for the good of His Saints and even our temptation may be used for holy ends. Thus, even though the circumstances may have worked out to an apparently good end, the inclinations of our heart my have been sinful but God overruled them. I can imagine a modern day situation like Reuben with Joseph saying: "The Spirit laid it on my heart to sell you into slavery and look how good everything turned out!"

Originally Posted by CarlosOliveira

Bill, John Murray wrote an article about it. You can read it here. Mark Jones has posted last year about it on his blog too. You can read it here

A good article, but it really doesn't answer the question definitively. I do, of course, agree that prayer is a necessity coupled with a hunger for and knowledge of the Word. Without those, you could say that Benny Hinn is Spirit-led.

Admittedly, I'm not 100% cessationist- only 99.7%, so the idea of God actively working amongst His people through Spiritual guidance doesn't bother me. I do not consider such communication to be special revelation- IE there's a big difference between seeking the Lord for biblical guidance and a prophet inking new Bible texts. And no, I do not think that the canon is not closed. We have all the Bible we need.

Theognome

Originally Posted by CarlosOliveira

Bill, John Murray wrote an article about it. You can read it here. Mark Jones has posted last year about it on his blog too. You can read it here

Wow! The linkback on his blog already shows your post!

Originally Posted by Theognome

My thoughts are, absolutely! Christ promised that the Holy Spirit would guide us (John 16:5-11), and such guidance isn't revelation, it's God using means to work amongst His people.

However, Jesus also explicitly states the nature of this guidance:

"When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you." (John 16:13-15)

The object of the Spirit's guidance is the Word of Christ.

Originally Posted by Theognome

I do not consider such communication to be special revelation- IE there's a big difference between seeking the Lord for biblical guidance and a prophet inking new Bible texts. And no, I do not think that the canon is not closed. We have all the Bible we need.

Can you explain the difference? Certainly there is a difference in magnitude of the claim. Claiming revelation of a new book of Scripture is a little more gutsy than saying that the Holy Spirit directed you to talk to a hobo. However, I would affirm, as Murray appears to, that both situations are claims to special revelation.

I think we often describe this as the Holy Spirit illuminating our understanding through Scripture.

The question is does He lead and guide us in, around and through specific circumstances in life. Certainly, we all would say that if he does, it must agree with Scripture. In application, however, this becomes a more difficult question.

It is particularly difficult to say something like God does not lead us outside of understanding His Word when almost all of us have, at some time, experienced what we believe was born out to be a genuine leading of God to do or not do something. We could be wrong in our understanding of what actually happened, but many believe that was not the case- they were being led, directly and circumstantially.

Originally Posted by North Jersey Baptist

Carlos, you linked Charles Biggs webiste! Cool! Charles and I were neighbors. He lived right on my block and I enjoyed chatting with him numerous times. I think he is a pastor in Virginia someplace. I have to get back in touch with him. I don't believe he knows I became a Reformed Baptist.

Nice, Bill!

Originally Posted by Dearly Bought

Originally Posted by Theognome

My thoughts are, absolutely! Christ promised that the Holy Spirit would guide us (John 16:5-11), and such guidance isn't revelation, it's God using means to work amongst His people.

However, Jesus also explicitly states the nature of this guidance:

"When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you." (John 16:13-15)

The object of the Spirit's guidance is the Word of Christ.

I don't see a disconnect here. Impulses must be weighed against the council of God, and the Spirit leads us in this by driving us to His word that we would conform our lives to Him. Romans 8:12-15, 1 Cor. 10:27-31 and Romans 8:26-28 demonstrate the Spirit of God guiding us according to His word. And in the examples that North Jersey Baptist gave, there was nothing that was against Gods council. Just as someone who says they are Spirit led to a particular thing, those who hear the claim are likewise Spirit led to evaluate by the same standard. Thus the man who is 'Spirit led' to have an extra-marital affair can be rebuked, for the standard of such leadings is the Word of God.

Originally Posted by Dearly Bought

Originally Posted by Theognome

I do not consider such communication to be special revelation- IE there's a big difference between seeking the Lord for biblical guidance and a prophet inking new Bible texts. And no, I do not think that the canon is not closed. We have all the Bible we need.

Can you explain the difference? Certainly there is a difference in magnitude of the claim. Claiming revelation of a new book of Scripture is a little more gutsy than saying that the Holy Spirit directed you to talk to a hobo. However, I would affirm, as Murray appears to, that both situations are claims to special revelation.

As I mentioned above, the claim goes both ways. SInce as we are called to exhort and correct our brothers and sisters who are in error according to sound doctrine, so the Spirit can alert the godly to nonsense in the Lord's name. Just as the OT gave rules to test prophecy, so the NT gives benchmarks for Spiritual claims- Look to the Bereans example.

Theognome

We are filled with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit leads us through desires. To desire to talk to another about Christ may be the leading of the Holy Spirit while at the same time not being a "new revelation."

Originally Posted by CarlosOliveira

Bill, John Murray wrote an article about it. You can read it here. Mark Jones has posted last year about it on his blog too. You can read it here

I am in general agreement with John Murray's understanding. Maybe I should re-word the question. "If a believer is living in obedience to the word of God, is it possible that the Spirit can use the word as a prodding? In other words, can the Holy Spirit bring the word to our remembrance and any action following is attributed to His using the word in our life?"

"If a believer is living in obedience to the word of God, is it possible that the Spirit can use the word as a prodding? In other words, can the Holy Spirit bring the word to our remembrance and any action following is attributed to His using the word in our life?"

Without hesitation, yes. The Holy Spirit brings God's Word to remembrance in certain situations.

Originally Posted by Theognome

I don't see a disconnect here. Impulses must be weighed against the council of God, and the Spirit leads us in this by driving us to His word that we would conform our lives to Him. Romans 8:12-15, 1 Cor. 10:27-31 and Romans 8:26-28 demonstrate the Spirit of God guiding us according to His word. And in the examples that North Jersey Baptist gave, there was nothing that was against Gods council. Just as someone who says they are Spirit led to a particular thing, those who hear the claim are likewise Spirit led to evaluate by the same standard. Thus the man who is 'Spirit led' to have an extra-marital affair can be rebuked, for the standard of such leadings is the Word of God.

To clarify, I'm not merely saying that any guidance must be in accordance with the Word of God. I am arguing that any guidance must be to the Word of God. The Holy Spirit may convict us to worship on the Lord's Day as we find many times commanded in Scripture (e.g., Heb. 10:25). However, He's not going to give us a prompting to drive a particular route on the way to meet with our local congregation.

In other words, the Holy Spirit only illuminates God's will of command (as revealed in Scripture). He does not illuminate God's secret decretive will.

Originally Posted by Dearly Bought

Originally Posted by Theognome

I don't see a disconnect here. Impulses must be weighed against the council of God, and the Spirit leads us in this by driving us to His word that we would conform our lives to Him. Romans 8:12-15, 1 Cor. 10:27-31 and Romans 8:26-28 demonstrate the Spirit of God guiding us according to His word. And in the examples that North Jersey Baptist gave, there was nothing that was against Gods council. Just as someone who says they are Spirit led to a particular thing, those who hear the claim are likewise Spirit led to evaluate by the same standard. Thus the man who is 'Spirit led' to have an extra-marital affair can be rebuked, for the standard of such leadings is the Word of God.

To clarify, I'm not merely saying that any guidance must be in accordance with the Word of God. I am arguing that any guidance must be to the Word of God. The Holy Spirit may convict us to worship on the Lord's Day as we find many times commanded in Scripture (e.g., Heb. 10:25). However, He's not going to give us a prompting to drive a particular route on the way to meet with our local congregation.

In other words, the Holy Spirit only illuminates God's will of command (as revealed in Scripture). He does not illuminate God's secret decretive will.

I agree. That would violate Rev 22:18, among other things. His Word is always the standard.

Theognome

This topic is one that concerns me because a misunderstanding of the work of the Spirit is not reserved solely for the Pentecostal or Charismatic movement. I concur that the Spirit works according to the word of God. I've heard it argued that the Spirit is not bound to the written word. The Spirit also acts according to the internal word between all three members of the godhead. This would allow for prompting, leadings etc. I am not saying this is what I believe, but I have heard this argued.

I wonder if the answer to the questions I raised in my OP have more to do with believers that regularly submit themselves in obedience to the Lord, and as a result are more focused on others than just self. To be more like Christ is to permeate all our affections. As Christ gave Himself up for us, we should give ourselves up in service toward others. In this sense, then yes; the Spirt can prod or lead, but it does so through obedience to the word of God, not in absence of it.

Originally Posted by Theognome

My thoughts are, absolutely! Christ promised that the Holy Spirit would guide us (John 16:5-11), and such guidance isn't revelation, it's God using means to work amongst His people.

Theognome

The promise here is given specifically to the Apostles, not us. The context of Jn.14/15/16 is Jesus instructing those who he ordained to be with Him MK3:14
The Spirit was going to bring all things to their remembrance, and show them things to come.
It is the apostolic word that gives us a more sure word of prophecy.It is only in a secondary way that the Spirit works in and through the word with us.Jn 17

17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Most times the Spirit's leading has to do with mortification of sin,Romans 8

11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

This thread has sent my mind racing. I spent so much of my early Christian life wondering about the will of God and why God was not speaking to me. Then I was following every "impression" and feeling attributing them to the Lord but all the while scared to death that I would make a false move. (I knew in my heart, I was not be trusted.)

Finally, I realized that God does often "burden" us with His will, ALWAYS in accordance with His Word, but not necessarily through a direct verse of Scripture. Here's an example of what I am talking about.

Several years ago, what seemed out of the clear blue sky, I began to be burdened for the persecuted church. I could not get the persecuted church off my mind. So I prayed for the church, and I became more burdened. I often laid in bed at night thinking about my brothers and sisters in Christ suffering for Lord's sake. Finally, I shared my burden with one of the pastor's at our church. What came of that (month's later) was an entire worship service dedicated to making the rest of our church aware of the needs of our brothers and sisters suffering all over the world. An offering was taken and a sizeable amount of money was given to purchase Bibles for the persecuted church. Within days of the worship service, that overwhelming sense of burden left me. I still pray for my brothers and sisters in Christ, but not with the urgency and burden I had during that time. Was that the Spirit of God impressing me? Yes, it had to have been, because it certainly did not come from my selfish heart.

In all of the examples given in the OP, there is a thoughtful consideration made in response to the recognized opportunity. The more sanctified you are, the more likely you are to be able to realize such an opportunity and respond appropriately. And we are sanctified by the Spirit, are we not?

Originally Posted by Tim

In all of the examples given in the OP, there is a thoughtful consideration made in response to the recognized opportunity. The more sanctified you are, the more likely you are to be able to realize such an opportunity and respond appropriately. And we are sanctified by the Spirit, are we not?

Which begs the question of whether there is a passive working of the Spirit. The more sanctified we are would it follow that we are more sensitive to the word of God? If more sensitive could this still fall under the scope of the work of the Spirit; not independent of the word but because of it?

Here is a list of name references to the Holy Spirit taken from the Bible (KJV). Source is "Gospel Herald" a Seventh Day Adventist publication (not endorsing the denomination beliefs only citing because every item is Biblically referenced):

Anointing - 1 John 2:27
Breath of the Almighty - Job 32:8; 33:4; 34:14-15
Breath of Life - Genesis 2:7
Breath of the LORD - Isaiah 40:7
Counselor - John 14:16
Deposit - Ephesians 1:13-14
Dew - Hosea 14:5
Double Portion - 2 Kings 2:9,15
Dove - Matthew 3:16
Eternal Spirit - Hebrews 9:14
Eyes of the Lord - Zechariah 4:10
Finger of God - Exodus 8:19; Luke 11:20
Fire - Acts 2:3
Firstfruits - Romans 8:23
Gift - Acts 5:3-4
God's Testimony - 1 John 5:9
Hand of God - 2 Chronicles 30:12
His Holy Spirit - Isaiah 63:10-11
His Spirit - Isaiah 48:16
Holy Spirit Sent From Heaven - 1 Peter 1:12
Holy Spirit of God - Ephesians 4:30
Holy Spirit Who Is In You - 1 Corinthians 6:19
Holy Spirit Whom He Pour Out - Titus 3:5
Lamp of the Lord - Proverbs 20:27
Lord Who Is the Spirit - 2 Corinthians 3:18
Mind of the LORD - Isaiah 40:13
My Spirit - Genesis 6:3
New Spirit - Ezekiel 11:19
Oil - 1 Samuel 16:13
One Spirit - 1 Corinthians 12:13
Power of the Lord - Luke 5:17
Power of the Most High - Luke 1:35
Promise - Acts 2:33; Galatians 3:14
Same Spirit - 1 Corinthians 12:4
Seal - Ephesians 1:13
Servant - Genesis 24:34
Seven Spirits of God - Revelation 4:5
The Spirit - Matthew 12:31
Spirit Above the Waters - Genesis 1:2
Spirit From On High - Isaiah 32:15
Spirit Given Without Limit - John 3:34
Spirit He Gave Unto Us - 1 John 3:24
Spirit Himself - Romans 8:26
Spirit of Christ - Romans 8:9
Spirit of Counsel and Power - Isaiah 11:2
Spirit of Glory - 1 Peter 4:14
Spirit of God - Genesis 41:38
Spirit of Grace - Hebrews 10:29
Spirit of Grace and Supplication - Zechariah 12:10
Spirit of Him Who Raised Jesus - Romans 8:11
Spirit of His Son - Galatians 4:6
Spirit of Holiness - Romans 1:4
Spirit of Jesus - Acts 16:7
Spirit of Jesus Christ - Philippians 1:19
Spirit of Judgment and Fire - Isaiah 4:4
Spirit of Justice - Isaiah 28:6
Spirit of Knowledge and of the Fear of the LORD - Isaiah 11:2
Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus - Romans 8:2
Spirit of the Living God - 2 Corinthians 3:3
Spirit of the LORD - Micah 2:7
Spirit of Our God - 1 Corinthians 6:11
Spirit of Power, Love, and Self-Discipline - 2 Timothy 1:7
Spirit of Prophecy - Revelation 19:10
Spirit of Sonship - Romans 8:15
Spirit of the Sovereign LORD - Isaiah 61:1
Spirit of Truth - John 14:17
Spirit of Your Father - Matthew 10:20
Spirit of Wisdom and Understanding - Isaiah 11:2
Spirit of Wisdom and Revelation - Ephesians 1:17
Spirit Who Gives Rest - Isaiah 63:14
Spirit Who Goes Out From the Father - John 15:26
Spirit Who Is From God - 1 Corinthians 2:12
Streams of Living Water - John 7:38
Streams on the Dry Ground - Isaiah - 44:3
Vindicator of Christ - 1 Timothy 3:16
Water - Zechariah 14:8
Wind - John 3:8
Wine - Ephesians 5:18
Your Good Spirit - Nehemiah 9:20
Your Presence - Psalm 139:7
Your Spirit - Nehemiah 9:30
Your Spirit of Creation and Renewal - Psalm 104:30

Originally Posted by North Jersey Baptist

Originally Posted by Tim

In all of the examples given in the OP, there is a thoughtful consideration made in response to the recognized opportunity. The more sanctified you are, the more likely you are to be able to realize such an opportunity and respond appropriately. And we are sanctified by the Spirit, are we not?

Which begs the question of whether there is a passive working of the Spirit. The more sanctified we are would it follow that we are more sensitive to the word of God? If more sensitive could this still fall under the scope of the work of the Spirit; not independent of the word but because of it?

Bill, I took your question (in the OP) to my pastor last evening. His response was (my paraphrase)--the canon is closed, there is no new revelation and God does not speak to us in audible voices. However, God gave us His Spirit to be our Guide, Teacher, Comforter, etc. He does speak to us in the sense that He communicates with our spirits. If that were not the case, how could He be a Comforter, Teacher and Guide to us? He always speaks in accordance with His Word and He opens our eyes to the truth in His Word when we read and study it. The reason why some are quick to dismiss this working of the Spirit is in part because of the charismatics and pentecostals who claim to receive words of new knowledge and new prophecy.

What my pastor said rings true. There is a difference (as has been said) between new revelation and God communicating with His children on a daily basis. I think of Jesus' words "My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and the follow Me." (John 10:17)

North Jersey Baptist, I hope I'm not breaking 3 million rules by sending your comment on to Charles -- he's the pastor of my daughter's church.

Originally Posted by JBaldwin

Originally Posted by North Jersey Baptist

Originally Posted by Tim

In all of the examples given in the OP, there is a thoughtful consideration made in response to the recognized opportunity. The more sanctified you are, the more likely you are to be able to realize such an opportunity and respond appropriately. And we are sanctified by the Spirit, are we not?

Which begs the question of whether there is a passive working of the Spirit. The more sanctified we are would it follow that we are more sensitive to the word of God? If more sensitive could this still fall under the scope of the work of the Spirit; not independent of the word but because of it?

Bill, I took your question (in the OP) to my pastor last evening. His response was (my paraphrase)--the canon is closed, there is no new revelation and God does not speak to us in audible voices. However, God gave us His Spirit to be our Guide, Teacher, Comforter, etc. He does speak to us in the sense that He communicates with our spirits. If that were not the case, how could He be a Comforter, Teacher and Guide to us? He always speaks in accordance with His Word and He opens our eyes to the truth in His Word when we read and study it. The reason why some are quick to dismiss this working of the Spirit is in part because of the charismatics and pentecostals who claim to receive words of new knowledge and new prophecy.

What my pastor said rings true. There is a difference (as has been said) between new revelation and God communicating with His children on a daily basis. I think of Jesus' words "My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and the follow Me." (John 10:17)

I understand what your Pastor is saying, and would only clarify that when we say "our spirits" that we recognize the Holy Spirit is actually in us at the time of regeneration.

The question we may be getting at here is does the Holy Spirit lead, guide and direct us circumstantially, in addition to illuminating our understanding as we read, hear and meditate on Scripture.

I understand what your Pastor is saying, and would only clarify that when we say "our spirits" that we recognize the Holy Spirit is actually in us at the time of regeneration.

The question we may be getting at here is does the Holy Spirit lead, guide and direct us circumstantially, in addition to illuminating our understanding as we read, hear and meditate on Scripture.

Yes, that was the original question

As Reformed believers we all agree that God has revealed Himself through His word. Can the Spirit still prompt or move a person to act in accordance with the Word?

I have always thought that many strict cessassionists err when it comes to the active work of the Holy Spirit among his people. I am by no means a Charismatic/Third Wave type on the use of the extraordinary gifts, but I nevertheless sympathize with some of their emphases regarding the internal work and prompting (which I do not see, as many strict cessassionists do, as necessarily compromising a closed canon or as being some sort of infallible special revelation).

I will give you a personal example of why I believe that the Holy Spirit works personally and actively among his people today, and that not only in conjunction with their reading of his Scriptures:

Right now, due to a number of converging circumstances, my family and I are quite broke. In fact, this last Monday I had spent my final 20.00 for the month on getting breakfast for my eight kids. I had less than 1/8 tank of gas in my car. There was no immediate relief in sight. After feeding my family I drove out to the woods behind the local theater where I spent an hour in desperate prayer, asking the God who had called me to lay down a comfortable and enjoyable lifestyle for the sake of his gospel to come to my aid, because his aid was all that I could expect at that point. The day goes by, dinner ends; I wake up the next morning and sit on my bed reading my theology, wondering why I am reading stuff that isn't feeding my family. My wife walks into the bedroom. She pulls out a card. An old friend of ours from a previous ministry had said that she normally would not do something like this, but that the previous day she had felt compelled by the Holy Spirit to provide aid for us, and that we were in great need (she was not aware of our circumstances). She gave us 1000.00.

That, my friends, is more than just providence, or the passing odd thought of someone who has been meditating upon some portion of Scripture. It is my belief that it can only plausibly be explained as the active and "unmediated" work of the Holy Spirit upon a person's heart, which was used in answer to a prayer of desperation.

I realize that this is a touchy subject, and I also realize that there are people who out in left field on the issue, but something like this has happened on more than one occasion in our life as a clear answer to prayer, and I want to be careful that in our attempts to guard the sufficiency of the Scripture for faith and life that we do not unnecessarily restrict the manner in which we believe the Spirit can/might/does/etc work in the lives of his people. Of course (for those who may be wondering/worried), my presbytery is fully aware of my view regarding the work of the Spirit being a "soft-cessassionist" view.

Adam, I have had similar experiences, and in these cases there is nothing extra-biblical going on. God is simply using His Spirit to work among His own people to accomplish His will.

Bill:

A lot of these scenarios that you point out are really nothing other than obeying the things that you have been taught. Don't get me wrong, that too is the leading of the Holy Spirit, but it is not anything extra special than what we have been taught to expect.

Davey Crockett had a saying: "If I know I'm right, I go ahead." With some refinement, that's what a Christian should be doing. I'm not saying that he should be doing what he feels is right, but coming to feel what is right and then doing it. That too is the work of the Spirit, even though the Christian says, "I was only doing my duty." But you have to be sure you're right. Then doing it is the Spirit's work in you. Its very practical.

Originally Posted by Archlute

I will give you a personal example of why I believe that the Holy Spirit works personally and actively among his people today, and that not only in conjunction with their reading of his Scriptures:

Appeals to personal examples validate the concern of cessationists and show that a belief in the direct work of the Spirit does lead to an unhealthy dependence on experience as a rule of faith and life.

Originally Posted by armourbearer

Originally Posted by Archlute

I will give you a personal example of why I believe that the Holy Spirit works personally and actively among his people today, and that not only in conjunction with their reading of his Scriptures:

Appeals to personal examples validate the concern of cessationists and show that a belief in the direct work of the Spirit does lead to an unhealthy dependence on experience as a rule of faith and life.

Apparently for some cessationists, you cannot open a jar of peanut butter without first appealing to a proof-text.

Originally Posted by Archlute

Apparently for some cessationists, you cannot open a jar of peanut butter without first appealing to a proof-text.

1 Tim. 4:4, "For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving."

Originally Posted by Archlute

I have always thought that many strict cessassionists err when it comes to the active work of the Holy Spirit among his people. I am by no means a Charismatic/Third Wave type on the use of the extraordinary gifts, but I nevertheless sympathize with some of their emphases regarding the internal work and prompting (which I do not see, as many strict cessassionists do, as necessarily compromising a closed canon or as being some sort of infallible special revelation).

I will give you a personal example of why I believe that the Holy Spirit works personally and actively among his people today, and that not only in conjunction with their reading of his Scriptures:

Right now, due to a number of converging circumstances, my family and I are quite broke. In fact, this last Monday I had spent my final 20.00 for the month on getting breakfast for my eight kids. I had less than 1/8 tank of gas in my car. There was no immediate relief in sight. After feeding my family I drove out to the woods behind the local theater where I spent an hour in desperate prayer, asking the God who had called me to lay down a comfortable and enjoyable lifestyle for the sake of his gospel to come to my aid, because his aid was all that I could expect at that point. The day goes by, dinner ends; I wake up the next morning and sit on my bed reading my theology, wondering why I am reading stuff that isn't feeding my family. My wife walks into the bedroom. She pulls out a card. An old friend of ours from a previous ministry had said that she normally would not do something like this, but that the previous day she had felt compelled by the Holy Spirit to provide aid for us, and that we were in great need (she was not aware of our circumstances). She gave us 1000.00.

That, my friends, is more than just providence, or the passing odd thought of someone who has been meditating upon some portion of Scripture. It is my belief that it can only plausibly be explained as the active and "unmediated" work of the Holy Spirit upon a person's heart, which was used in answer to a prayer of desperation.

I realize that this is a touchy subject, and I also realize that there are people who out in left field on the issue, but something like this has happened on more than one occasion in our life as a clear answer to prayer, and I want to be careful that in our attempts to guard the sufficiency of the Scripture for faith and life that we do not unnecessarily restrict the manner in which we believe the Spirit can/might/does/etc work in the lives of his people. Of course (for those who may be wondering/worried), my presbytery is fully aware of my view regarding the work of the Spirit being a "soft-cessassionist" view.

First of all, I praise God with you to hear that He provided for your need.

I'm wondering why you believe what occurred is, in your words, "...more than just providence...." I just read Calvin on providence and I believe you must be thinking of some other idea than providence when you stated this because what happened to you is providence. That said, I don't believe that the fact that God has provided for you in an extraordinary manner necessitates that we insist that we understand precisely the agency that God utilized. The hidden things belong to God and ours is not to know how your friend thought of you by claiming to understand the exact mechanism. We can thank God for His providential care even as we maintain respect for His inscrutable and unsearchable ways.

Originally Posted by Semper Fidelis

Originally Posted by Archlute

I have always thought that many strict cessassionists err when it comes to the active work of the Holy Spirit among his people. I am by no means a Charismatic/Third Wave type on the use of the extraordinary gifts, but I nevertheless sympathize with some of their emphases regarding the internal work and prompting (which I do not see, as many strict cessassionists do, as necessarily compromising a closed canon or as being some sort of infallible special revelation).

I will give you a personal example of why I believe that the Holy Spirit works personally and actively among his people today, and that not only in conjunction with their reading of his Scriptures:

Right now, due to a number of converging circumstances, my family and I are quite broke. In fact, this last Monday I had spent my final 20.00 for the month on getting breakfast for my eight kids. I had less than 1/8 tank of gas in my car. There was no immediate relief in sight. After feeding my family I drove out to the woods behind the local theater where I spent an hour in desperate prayer, asking the God who had called me to lay down a comfortable and enjoyable lifestyle for the sake of his gospel to come to my aid, because his aid was all that I could expect at that point. The day goes by, dinner ends; I wake up the next morning and sit on my bed reading my theology, wondering why I am reading stuff that isn't feeding my family. My wife walks into the bedroom. She pulls out a card. An old friend of ours from a previous ministry had said that she normally would not do something like this, but that the previous day she had felt compelled by the Holy Spirit to provide aid for us, and that we were in great need (she was not aware of our circumstances). She gave us 1000.00.

That, my friends, is more than just providence, or the passing odd thought of someone who has been meditating upon some portion of Scripture. It is my belief that it can only plausibly be explained as the active and "unmediated" work of the Holy Spirit upon a person's heart, which was used in answer to a prayer of desperation.

I realize that this is a touchy subject, and I also realize that there are people who out in left field on the issue, but something like this has happened on more than one occasion in our life as a clear answer to prayer, and I want to be careful that in our attempts to guard the sufficiency of the Scripture for faith and life that we do not unnecessarily restrict the manner in which we believe the Spirit can/might/does/etc work in the lives of his people. Of course (for those who may be wondering/worried), my presbytery is fully aware of my view regarding the work of the Spirit being a "soft-cessassionist" view.

First of all, I praise God with you to hear that He provided for your need.

I'm wondering why you believe what occurred is, in your words, "...more than just providence...." I just read Calvin on providence and I believe you must be thinking of some other idea than providence when you stated this because what happened to you is providence. That said, I don't believe that the fact that God has provided for you in an extraordinary manner necessitates that we insist that we understand precisely the agency that God utilized. The hidden things belong to God and ours is not to know how your friend thought of you by claiming to understand the exact mechanism. We can thank God for His providential care even as we maintain respect for His inscrutable and unsearchable ways.

Yes, it falls under God's providence. However, the reason that I stated that it was more than just providence is because I dismiss what is commonly meant when that phrase is invoked in describing an occurrence like this. What is most commonly meant when someone approaches this issue through "mere providence", although it is usually left unspoken, is that we can be thankful that God had planned these things to occur at the precise moment when they were needed, but it's too bad that some ignorant/crazy old Christian woman had to assert that she was lead by the Spirit to do this, when we all know that the Spirit does not work in this manner. It was nice of God to be able to work through her; too bad she is self-deceived.

I take that as an affront to the active work of the Spirit (although, I am not taking your question in this way), and have always held that the position is a reactionary one that has arisen in recent decades within conservative Reformed thought against other issues. I believe that it is misguided theology at best, and that it is borderline unbelief, with a dash of condescending arrogance thrown in by some, at worst.

My position on the internal work of the Spirit is not novel in the history of the church, and similar thoughts can be found in the writings and sermons of Reformed theologians and ministers of the past. Calvin, Knox, and Spurgeon come to mind especially. Samuel Storms is another modern day theologian of repute who (although I think his views are a little broader than my own on the Spirit's work) nevertheless considers himself to be a Reformed theologian who has a more active view of the role of the Spirit in the Christian life than many modern Reformed folk would feel comfortable in affirming.

In the same way that none would want to deny God's work in providence, I also would not want to deny the work of the Holy Spirit as an instrument in that providence.

Originally Posted by Archlute

I take that as an affront to the active work of the Spirit (although, I am not taking your question in this way), and have always held that the position is a reactionary one that has arisen in recent decades within conservative Reformed thought against other issues. I believe that it is misguided theology at best, and that it is borderline unbelief, with a dash of condescending arrogance thrown in by some, at worst.

This is a rather strong claim to know the motives behind Reformed cessationism. Why not engage the claims of cessationists instead?

I would argue that this sort of language about the "active," "unmediated," and "direct" work of the Holy Spirit threatens to do serious damage to the doctrine of the Trinity. To quote Calvin's commentary on John 16,

"as soon as the Spirit is separated from the word of Christ, the door is open to all kinds of delusions and impostures."

The Father speaks His Word through His Spirit. The Spirit does not speak apart from the Word. He is the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9). If you do seek to uphold Trinitarian orthodoxy, yet still claim adherence to continuing revelations of any sort, then the canon must not yet be closed for the Word of Christ has apparently not yet been sufficiently revealed.

Originally Posted by Archlute

My position on the internal work of the Spirit is not novel in the history of the church, and similar thoughts can be found in the writings and sermons of Reformed theologians and ministers of the past. Calvin, Knox, and Spurgeon come to mind especially.

Would you please point me to where Calvin affirms that the Spirit works without the mediation of the Word?

Originally Posted by Dearly Bought

Originally Posted by Archlute

I take that as an affront to the active work of the Spirit (although, I am not taking your question in this way), and have always held that the position is a reactionary one that has arisen in recent decades within conservative Reformed thought against other issues. I believe that it is misguided theology at best, and that it is borderline unbelief, with a dash of condescending arrogance thrown in by some, at worst.

This is a rather strong claim to know the motives behind Reformed cessationism. Why not engage the claims of cessationists instead?

I would argue that this sort of language about the "active," "unmediated," and "direct" work of the Holy Spirit threatens to do serious damage to the doctrine of the Trinity. To quote Calvin's commentary on John 16,

"as soon as the Spirit is separated from the word of Christ, the door is open to all kinds of delusions and impostures."

The Father speaks His Word through His Spirit. The Spirit does not speak apart from the Word. He is the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9). If you do seek to uphold Trinitarian orthodoxy, yet still claim adherence to continuing revelations of any sort, then the canon must not yet be closed for the Word of Christ has apparently not yet been sufficiently revealed.

Originally Posted by Archlute

My position on the internal work of the Spirit is not novel in the history of the church, and similar thoughts can be found in the writings and sermons of Reformed theologians and ministers of the past. Calvin, Knox, and Spurgeon come to mind especially.

Would you please point me to where Calvin affirms that the Spirit works without the mediation of the Word?

Hello Bryan,

I don't really have time to waste with every inflamed individual on the Internet who makes overstated claims regarding the damage done the Trinity, etc. There's lots of reading you can do to help inform yourself a little better on the issue than the PB, or my own limited time for researching and posting.

You can be worried about "strong claims" etc. all you'd like. That's fine by me. I've had plenty of conversations with brothers who take a strict-cessationist position (again, it would be helpful for you to distinguish views within the camp, as there is more than a "one-size fits all" approach to the cessation of certain aspects of the Spirit's operation), and I don't really feel the need to engage their claims for your own pleasure of engaging in argumentation.

You can hold to a closed canon without having to hold to a complete cessation of the Spirit's work. There are modern Reformed theologians who argue this. Do the reading.

Also, regarding Calvin, Knox, and others, you'll have to take enough interest to find the relevant passages. They are out there, especially with Knox and Spurgeon (whom I notice you don't mention). I'm not about to do your leg work, and I've mentioned that to others on this board regarding other citations. If I had them on hand or in head I would be pleased to post them for you, but I do not, and my sermon prep and other things are a little more important to me than providing citations to everyone who may request them. If you don't believe me and don't want to read up on your own, that's fine by me. This board is neither a term paper, nor a scholarly publication, and I feel no compulsion to cite every source that I reference from memory.

Take care.

BTW, is the RCUS still kicking out ministers who refuse to use the KJV in family devotions? Serious question, as I'm friends with a minister whose father used to minister in the RCUS when he was a kid, that is until that happened. It lends a bit of insight into the petty combativeness and failure to understand/appreciate nuances in Christian theology that can come out of those circles. Which is one reason that I don't feel obliged to get into a debate over something that is an accepted position (within other parts of the Reformed world) with you over this.

Adam,

You have every right to disagree with cessationism. But you cited individuals (Calvin, Knox and "others") without being prepared to cite sources. Your response? You don't have the time. That's rather unfair. You can't assume that everyone is as read up as you are or has a mastery of other authors. You basically bit off Bryan's head for drilling down on your assertion. You're in the wrong on this. If you have, "limited time for researching and posting" maybe you should have refrained from posting or provided your sources?

No, I don't think that I am in the wrong in making reference w/o citation, although I appreciate your desire to stand up on Bryan's behalf where you feel my approach to have been unfair.

As I have mentioned before, this is a non-scholarly forum. If I were writing a term paper, dissertation, or presenting a lecture in an academic environment, I would have prepared to present citations as such. In an online forum, however, I feel no obligation to do so. I certainly don't take time to cite sources in the middle of personal conversation (which is how I see participation on this board), and since I would feel free in bringing up the points without citing them in face to face conversation, I don't feel a need to do any differently on the PB. If Bryan wants to disbelieve my statements, because I don't feel compelled to dig through my stuff to find the exact quote, that's really O.K. by me. This conversation has much more to do with presuppositions regarding a number of theological topics than will be decided by quotes from church history. Even if I had the quotes on hand to post, many strict-cessationists would still just say that Calvin, Knox, Spurgeon, etc were wrong/misguided on that point.

I don't see this discussion as a debate to be won, or that someone's honor needs be upheld, so I'll leave my statement as stands. I don't mind coming back to give citations if I come across any of those quotes during the course of the week; I've done it before for others via PM on occasion.

Hang on a minute. I'm a bit confused here.

God is sovereign over my thoughts, right? It was just as much a part of God's decree that I forgot to put postage on 8 packages this afternoon, thereby engendering a three-day delay in the shipment, as it was a part of His decree that my car wouldn't start this morning.

Now if God is sovereign over my thoughts, then when I remember to pray for someone, or am inclined to send them money, is that not also a part of God's decree?

Now what mechanism and second causes God uses, I don't always know (I was distracted talking about the packages). But it is still God who has done it.