So... anyone who is not interpreting the Word of God like you (or Calvin) does not have the Holy Spirit leading them? Furthermore, any church that does not worship "perfectly" is heretical...??

Am I missing something?

I think maybe we have a misunderstanding of the Spirit's role... It's my understanding that the Holy Spirit He not responsible for interpreting these kind of secondary issues. The Holy Spirit convicts us of sin, righteousness, and judgment... and He is the Teacher who reminds us of what has been taught. But He does not interperate for us. That's our responsibility. If that were His responsibility, then the conclusion could be made that "we" are the only Christians... everybody else is lost.

How else can two great men of God like Sproul and MacArthur have such different views on Baptism?

Am I close? What do ya'll think?

__________________
Matt Johnson
member, [URL="http://www.fepcb.org/"]FAITH Evangelical Presbyterian Church[/URL] Brooksville, FL
[URL="http://www.sixdayz.com/"]SIXDAYZ.com[/URL]

"Best-of-all-possible-worlds"
God governs the course of history so that, in the long run, His glory will be more fully displayed and His people more fully satisfied than would have been the case in any other world. - John Piper

A few verses come to mind that may be helpful for this discussion:

John 14:16-17 16 "And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another (1a)Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17 that is (a)the Spirit of truth, (b)whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you, and will be in you.

John 14:23-26 23 Jesus answered and said to him, (a)"If anyone loves Me, he will (b)keep My word; and (c)My Father will love him, and We (d)will come to him, and make Our abode with him. 24 "He who does not love Me (a)does not keep My words; and (b)the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me. 25 "These things I have spoken to you, while abiding with you. 26 "But the (a)Helper, the Holy Spirit, (b)whom the Father will send in My name, (c)He will teach you all things, and (d)bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

John 15:26-27 26 "When the (1a)Helper comes, (b)whom I will send to you from the Father, that is (c)the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, (d)He will bear witness of Me, 27 1)and (a)you will bear witness also, because you have been with Me (b)from the beginning.

John 16:13-15 13 "But when He, (a)the Spirit of truth, comes, He will (b)guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14 "He shall (a)glorify Me; for He shall take of Mine, and shall disclose it to you. 15 a)"All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said, that He takes of Mine, and will disclose it to you.

1 John 4:6 6 (a)We are from God; (b)he who knows God listens to us; (c)he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know (d)the spirit of truth and (e)the spirit of error.

1 John 5:7 7 And it is (a)the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is the truth.

__________________
Pastor Steve Bradley
Trinity Reformed Presbyterian Church (RPCNA)
www.trinityrpc.org
www.sermonaudio.com/trinityrpc
www.reformedvoice.com/trinityrpc
Riva, MD

I think we have to see the promises in John as being unique to the Apostles who would go on to be the foundation of the church. We can take our comfort in knowing that they were specially instructed by the H.S.

__________________
Bruce
PCUSA
Ocean City NJ

Comfort, Conviction, Illumination (aiding interpretation), etc.

__________________
Josh Hicks, Chloë's Daddy
Member of TRBC. My Blog
The Puritan Pub (Team Blog)
Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

As has been pointed out this is not our common experience. Christians come to different conclusions regarding interpretation and theology.

Note: I did not say that the Holy Spirit interprets it. The Holy Spirit illuminates to the believer. As Pastor Bradley gave the texts, the HS guides [us] into all truth. A part of that, me thinks, is the illumination of the Scriptures. Failed interpretation is not due to to the Holy Spirit, but the hearts of men.

Amen Josh.

Just like sanctification. The Holy Spirit is the One Who sanctifies us; our lack of sanctification is due to our sinfulness, not His lack of leading. Likewise, we cannot take credit for having a right interpretation of Scripture anymore than we can take credit for our sanctification. It's the gracious work of the Spirit that leads us to a correct understanding of His Word.

We all struggle with sin. The Holy Spirit convicts all of us of our sin. For example, He tells us that it's wrong to covet. We all know this; we all affirm this to be true, yet we still commit this sin from time to time. Why? Well, it's certainly not because the Spirit wasn't clear on the matter...

The reason there are disagreements among even godly men is because all of us still wrestle with sin. The reason there are factions and even different denominations is due to the fact that we live with the reality and consequences of sin. In Heaven, there will be One Body in part because there will be no sin.

Would you say that the 2 views of baptism are a result of sin in the interpreters? Should we think that for one side the Holy Spirit's efforts to teach are being thwarted by sin?

By asking this question, though, you're denying the totality of Scripture which says absolutely nothing God determines to accomplish will be thwarted. (i.e. of course we shouldn't think that. To do so is to ignore Scripture)

Well, I think you would agree that both positions cannot be correct, right? If a position is incorrect, it's only incorrect because it's not the correct teaching according to the Scriptures. So, I'll stick with what I said earlier; sin is the cause for the divisions in Christ's Church.

Just trying to clear up what you mean by "Failed interpretation is not due to to the Holy Spirit, but the hearts of men." in the context of this discussion about the role of the H.S. in interpretation.

What I mean is precisely this: When a Christian wrongly interprets a passage of Scripture, it is not because of some failure on the part of the Holy Spirit; rather, it is due that residue of indwelling sin in the heart and mind of the believer.

I think we are on to something... When we interpret scripture, we are working alongside the Holy Spirit (with His power). Like sanctification, some (according to God's hidden purposes) grow in grace much faster than others... some things have been "revealed" and some things have not. God is pleased to reveal truth at his leisure... If He chooses not to, then we are left to interpret according to our (still)fallen minds.

The dangerous aspect is to "Lord it Over" weaker Christians who have not had the finer points of scripture revealed to them... That is the reason I really started this thread. I think we have to be extremely humble in our orthodoxy.

Agree?

Just a quick note: There is a reason God has given pastors and teachers, etc. to the Church. Don't misunderstand, I heartilfy affirm the perpescuity of Scripture...but God has given leaders in the Church to teach us some more difficult things. Note: Those men are fallen as well.

In post 3 Bruce was correct when he noted this;

Joshua, I think I am not in agreement with what you posted when you quoted a portion of Jn 16,you said-

As Bruce had posted only the Apostles were promised to be "guided" into all truth, not [us]. The bible is all truth. The Holy Spirit illumines it to us as he wills.
When the pastor posted all the verses in Jn 14,15, 16, these were unique promises to The apostles. The [ Us] in John's writing is the Apostles.
He says the same thing in 1Jn. 4:1-6.
I think carefully reading through these chapters does not give room for another interpretation. Because we have all that pertains to life and godliness in scripture, it does not mean that each one of us has infallible interpretation into all truth, unless we are Harold Camping Do we agree on this?

__________________
Anthony D'Arienzo
Sunday School Teacher
Hope Reformed Baptist Church:
Medford, N.Y.

Wherein did I state or even imply that each (or any for that matter!) believer has infallible interpretation? In fact, I specifically stated that even redeemed men have a residue of indwelling sin upon their hearts which serves to distort interpretation, if not guarded and guided by the HS. I also went on to add that God has given the church teachers, pastors, etc. In fact, I did so lest anyone think I was advocating solo Scriptura. So, please forgive my misinterpretation , but I'm not really sure what you're trying to say.

Joshua,
I was not trying to suggest that you were saying that directly.
I was reacting to your quote where you put the [us] in the bracket.

THIS PART- I do not believe the verse in John 16 means that each individual believer is guided into all truth, BUT WHEN YOU PUT THE [US] in the bracket, it seemed like that is what you were saying. Sorry if I missed your point.
I live in an area where there are many claim to be "guided into all truth". So I have grown very sensitive to this verse being abused.
Maybe I am not understanding how you used it? I was not saying anything about you personally. I was just trying to deal with the Jn 16 verse as it relates to this thread. I think Bruce in thread number 3 was right on it.

__________________
Richard
CofE
UK

Isn't there a huge problem when one man says... "the Holy Spirit has guided me to understand covenant baptism" while another says "the Holy Spirit has guided me to understand credal baptism"...

Now we know both cannot be correct... But how should we deal with one another when talking about differing interpretations? How can we demonstrate humility, and at the same time, stand firm on our convictions?