Thread: Have we become numb to miracles because of WOF and other similars?

Sometimes I feel it is so with me.Any time I hear someone speak of being healed by God.I immediately feel a questioning in my heart that they may not be telling the truth.I know this is wrong to think this way,but because of the Benny Hinns of the world it makes me have doubts about people.Anybody else?

If their account is true then praise God. Usually their account is more an interpretion of the event than an actual recall. Usually they underwent a successful medical treatment, or the illness has run its course and they interpret the event to be miraculous. Which is still grounds to thank God for his preserving of our health.

[Edited on 2-12-2004 by puritansailor]

Yeah -I've developed a heavy skepticism to such testimonies after 10 years in pentecostal type circles -I've felt the devil's temptation to embellish things myself.

I've felt the devil's temptation to embellish things myself.

Wow, glad to know I wasn't the only one!

Honestly...I caught myself in mid-sentence (by then it was too late) puffing myself up...I blurted out something like -"God ALWAYS answers my prayers" while witnessing to someone...Ugh! That was several years ago and I've been mad (and greatly disappointed) at myself ever since -what a lie.

I've kept a real tight reign on myself since then.

I'm convinced the whole charismatic movement forces (you) into a position that you must conclude that miraculous events should be the norm in Christian life and, if it's not, then something is VERY wrong -so the temptation to stretch the ordinary into the miraculous (so as not to seem "unspiritual") is a very great one indeed.

[Edited on 4-12-2004 by SmokingFlax]

Chris, please:P

I thought I was a PROPHET!

Wow Adam! Seriously?

I vexed for the longest time which of the "four-fold" (?) ministries I was "called" to...never convinced I was any of them. I thought maybe "prophet" for a season because I relish the role of telling people they're wrong and don't really care what people think of me. Maybe "evangelist", maybe "healer"...etc. etc. etc. Always a grand role of course.

The end result is probably closer to ending up as a religious flake.

The more I think about it the more I hate this segment of the Christian world.

Well, I was TOLD I was a prophet. But that a prophet today did NOT get new words outside the bible or new interpreations, but rather took the word of God and understood it better than those who were not prophets.

My job was to hold pastors, etc accountable and to keep the church away from error.

They said I "precieved" the bible in a clear way that most people did not.

Originally posted by houseparent
Chris, please:P

I thought I was a PROPHET!

Really? Me too.

Originally posted by Ianterrell

Originally posted by houseparent
Chris, please:P

I thought I was a PROPHET!

Really? Me too.

Did you give personal words of Knowledge to people?

I remember THE biggest most exciting part of the service at a Pentecostal church I visited with my Mom was at the end when the Pastor would give personal "words" from the Lord.

Sometimes he would single people out by pointing to them and calling them to the front of the church and expose some sort of sin that was in there life. It seemed pretty crazy to me because I wondered, if this guy can hear from God in that way then why doesn't God tell him to go and save some Kid from being molested or to go warn some lady to not go out on the road today because she's going to be killed in a car wreck! Then there were times when people would line up to get a personal "word" from the Lord. It would always be real vague type generalizations. Something like " the Lord told me to tell you that he has a great ministry in store for you" then he would touch there head and slay them in the Spirit.

This one time I went to the front and he told me the same thing, that I would have a great ministry and then put his hand on me head and I didn't fall down. He then started to pray louder and more people from the church began to lay hands on me and pray in tounges and I felt the Pastor begin to try and push me down forcefully and I wasn't about to give up easy so I fought his force with force until we came to an impasse. I couldn't believe this man was trying to push me down, they probably just attributed it to me being possesed by the devil or something.

Originally posted by skinsfanjoe I couldn't believe this man was trying to push me down

Kinda puts a damper on being slayed in the spirit! I've never seen such a thing in person and I'm not running to see it either. It's amazing what people will do.

However I did go with my brother-in-law once to his church, a charismatic church in St. Louis county. There were people all over the church speaking in tongues and rolling on the floor. It was a big church too. In this weekday service there were well over a thousand people.

After the service my brother-in-law asked me what I thought of the service. I said, "There wasn't anyone to interpret for those speaking in tognues."

What was his response?? "Huh?"

[Edited on 1-15-2005 by Ivan]

Originally posted by Ivan

After the service my brother-in-law asked me what I thought of the service. I said, "There wasn't anyone to interpret for those speaking in tognues."

What was his response?? "Huh?"

[Edited on 1-15-2005 by Ivan]

Yeah, that's the funny part. They always seem to forget that part about an interpreter being present. (1Cor 14)

Originally posted by skinsfanjoe

Originally posted by Ivan

After the service my brother-in-law asked me what I thought of the service. I said, "There wasn't anyone to interpret for those speaking in tognues."

What was his response?? "Huh?"

[Edited on 1-15-2005 by Ivan]

Yeah, that's the funny part. They always seem to forget that part about an interpreter being present. (1Cor 14)

Yup. And it was totally chaos that night. I told him that I would NEVER, EVER attend such a meeting again.

We still get along though.

Ok, time for testimony!

I was sovereignly healed of epilepsy in December of 2002. I have been seizure free and off of Depakote for two years now.

In the fall of 2003 I was healed of irritable bowel syndrome, having suffered from it for about 10 years. I had diarrhea about four to five times a week and severe intestinal cramping. My gastroenterologist couldn't figure out what happened and said it was amazing. No more lamotil for me!

At about the same time (about a day or two after the burning cramps in my gut ceased), the hemorrhoids that I had all over my rectum from the IBS were gone when I woke up one morning. That was the first day in a decade I was able to wash my bottom in the shower with no pain or blood.

To God be all the glory and praise!

Originally posted by Charismatic Calvinist
Ok, time for testimony!

I was sovereignly healed of epilepsy in December of 2002. I have been seizure free and off of Depakote for two years now.
...

That's awesome! The mention of healing makes them very nervous at our church. The problem they have, is they are very cessationist and frequently preach against the gifts. But the fact that healing occurs is evident through many testimonies like those you present. Certainly some testimonies are trumped up or can be explained away. "Well, the Dr. misread the x-rays (or read the wrong ones) ... the cancer you THOUGHT you had before you prayed/were prayed for/annointed with oil etc. wasn't there to begin with."

This is an area where one's theology will impact one's interpretation of what happened. In my church, if one is prayed for by the elders (James 5:14) and reports being healed, then its ok. But, if a lay person of the congregation were to stand aside with the individual or visit them in the hospital and lay hands on them and pray, and the person turns up well, then that is NOT valid because the gifts of healing have passed away. When testimony and personal experience disagree with one's theological understanding, people will go to great lengths to dispense with the ensuing cognitive dissonance.

I think you may be misunderstanding most cessationists, Lorin. We do not deny that God heals. He is sovereign. He can heal whoever He wants to His own glory. It is the apostolic gift of healing that has ceased, the ability to say "Be healed in the name of Jesus... etc." This gift, like the other extraordinary gifts, were signs of confirmation of the apostolic message (Heb 2, Mrk 16). That's the distinction most of us would make.

Lorin, don't even go here with these guys...

Former Surgeon General C. Everett Koop has a great treatment of this subject, "Faith Healing and the Sovereignty of God" in the book "The Agony of Deceit" from a reformed surgeon's perspective. Rather enlightening as he peals apart how though he is a surgeon who uses instruments like a scapel, so God uses surgeons like himself as instruments in providence to perform His work. Even more that the surgeon can make the cuts and administer various medications but the healing functions of the body are way beyond us and under God's providence.

One eye opening example he makes is that a believer who is a surgeon does so to the glory of God knowing that he is only doing so as an instrument in God's providence. However, the unbelieving surgeon may work on a patient to a successful life saving surgery and that patient says something like, "Praise God!" To which the unbelieving doctor replies, "God had nothing to do with it...I did it all." Thus, this doctor curses God and glorifies himself.

L

Originally posted by Ivan

Originally posted by skinsfanjoe I couldn't believe this man was trying to push me down

Kinda puts a damper on being slayed in the spirit! I've never seen such a thing in person and I'm not running to see it either. It's amazing what people will do.

God still does work miracles! Praise God for Charismatic Calvinist's testimony. :bigsmile: God has also worked many miracles in my life. In my late 20's I had heart surgery for a birth defect they didn't even know I had until I started going into heart failure. I was basically missing the entire wall between the right and left chanbers of my heart. I shouldn't have even been alove 1 day let alone 27 years - most of which without symptoms. My surgeon said it was a miracle

On the 'slain in the Spirit' - I haven't found an example of that anywhere in the Bible. The closest I can find is when Jesus heals a demon-possessed boy and he rolls around and foams at the mouth.

Am I missing something? Has anyone found a Biblical example of being slain?

The Church was born in an apparent state of drunkenness. The "mockers" accused the Spirit-filled believers as being full of new wine (Acts 2:13).

This is simple:

Miracles (extraordinary providences, not authenticating works of revelation), yes.

Miracle workers, no.

WCF 5.3 God, in His ordinary providence, maketh use of means, yet is free to work without, above, and against them, at His pleasure.

[Edited on 1/22/2005 by fredtgreco]

Fred,

Do you believe that God can choose to heal through the prayer of elders and annointing oil, like in James?
"Jam 5:14 Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;
Jam 5:15 and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him. "

As far as miracle workers, I agree with you. If there really 'was' one today, why isn't he at all the childrens hospitals like St. Jude's healing everyone there?

Originally posted by fredtgreco
This is simple:

Miracles (extraordinary providences, not authenticating works of revelation), yes.

Miracle workers, no.

WCF 5.3 God, in His ordinary providence, maketh use of means, yet is free to work without, above, and against them, at His pleasure.

Remember guys, the Westminster Confession of Faith says so and that's final!

Originally posted by bond-servant
Fred,

Do you believe that God can choose to heal through the prayer of elders and annointing oil, like in James?
"Jam 5:14 Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;
Jam 5:15 and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him. "

I am not sure exactly what is going on in James here, except that prayer is a lawful means of intercession for God's mercy, and it is the duty of elders to do so.

What I do know is:

1. This is no "magic" or prescriptive formula, else all those who were prayed for would be healed.

2. The emphasis here in James is actually on restoration of the inner man ("his sins shall be forgiven") rather than the outer man. The text actually does not say that such a one will be healed or delivered from bodily affliction. It says he will be "raised up" by the Lord in the context of his sins being forgiven. It would appear that such raising up has to do with what the text actually mentions, rather than what it does not.

3. I find it curious that those who espouse such prayer and anointing in order to cure illnesses, do not claim that men can rid others of their sin by such a method.

Originally posted by Charismatic Calvinist

Originally posted by fredtgreco
This is simple:

Miracles (extraordinary providences, not authenticating works of revelation), yes.

Miracle workers, no.

WCF 5.3 God, in His ordinary providence, maketh use of means, yet is free to work without, above, and against them, at His pleasure.

Remember guys, the Westminster Confession of Faith says so and that's final!

Yep. Far be it from anyone to not bow to another's experience!!

Oh, I also wannt to see someone who is a "healer" who doesn't heal:

a bad back
an internal and unidentifiable illness
a lost sense of smell (yes, Ernest Angly thrust out a demon of smelling from a man)

I want to see a lost limb regrown, or a dead man raised.

Why is it that healers only can do obscure, un-identifable healings. Oh, that's right, because they are charlatans.

Originally posted by fredtgreco

Originally posted by Charismatic Calvinist

Originally posted by fredtgreco
This is simple:

Miracles (extraordinary providences, not authenticating works of revelation), yes.

Miracle workers, no.

WCF 5.3 God, in His ordinary providence, maketh use of means, yet is free to work without, above, and against them, at His pleasure.

Remember guys, the Westminster Confession of Faith says so and that's final!

Yep. Far be it from anyone to not bow to another's experience!!

Far be it from anyone not to bow down to the writ of man!!

Originally posted by fredtgreco
Oh, I also wannt to see someone who is a "healer" who doesn't heal:

a bad back
an internal and unidentifiable illness
a lost sense of smell (yes, Ernest Angly thrust out a demon of smelling from a man)

I want to see a lost limb regrown, or a dead man raised.

Why is it that healers only can do obscure, un-identifable healings. Oh, that's right, because they are charlatans.

What makes you so sure that you would believe even if you did see it, Fred?

But although He had done so many signs before them, they would not believe Him...(John 12:37)

I thought it might be a nice change of pace to appeal to the Word instead of the WCF...

Originally posted by Charismatic Calvinist
I thought it might be a nice change of pace to appeal to the Word instead of the WCF...

Then start with Hebrews 1, 1 Corinthians 13, and John 21.

You can also review Exodus 3-4. You will find that miracles worked by men are always an authentication of a man as a messenger of God, bringing His Word.

You will also find that God has spoken His final word in the Person of His Son. The purpose of the Word is to reveal Christ and His glory, and man's salvation by the work of God.

I also thought it might be helpful to see what godly men has said about the Word. But if you'd rather cite the arguments of anti-Trinitarians, Pelagians, semi-Pelagians, rejecters of the authority of the Word and other assorted heretics, feel free.

Originally posted by Charismatic Calvinist

Originally posted by fredtgreco
Oh, I also wannt to see someone who is a "healer" who doesn't heal:

a bad back
an internal and unidentifiable illness
a lost sense of smell (yes, Ernest Angly thrust out a demon of smelling from a man)

I want to see a lost limb regrown, or a dead man raised.

Why is it that healers only can do obscure, un-identifable healings. Oh, that's right, because they are charlatans.

What makes you so sure that you would believe even if you did see it, Fred?

But although He had done so many signs before them, they would not believe Him...(John 12:37)

Perhaps because I have the Spirit of God, and the ones claiming such gifts reject the Trinity, want to add to God's revelation, claim prophetic authority for themselves to add to and contradict God's Word, despise His church (remember, God is going to do away with the Church and do "better things" through them), claim to speak to the dead (good ol' Benny Hinn), claim God is a physical person (good ol' Jesse Duplantis) and other assorted nut cases.

My brother-in-law, who is reformed but formerly dabbled in such things & a pastor once said when Benedict Hinn came to town, "If he really had a gift for healing why is he not visiting the downtown area hospitals, the poor and the sick rather than 'putting on a show' and making much money doing so and glorifying himself?"

Again - to whom does the ministry point the eyes - Christ crucified and risen for sin or something else?

I was once accused of trying to "put God in a box" when I affirmed basically what the WCF says, though I wasn't referencing it but the sufficiency of Scripture. To which I replied, "I'm not trying to put God in a box such is ridiculous to even state, I'm putting men in a box, I trust God that is why I affirm His final word given to us."

Plus, what are we to make of all the warnings that Christ Himself gave us regarding many will come in My name showing great signs and wonders?

Originally posted by Larry Hughes
My brother-in-law, who is reformed but formerly dabbled in such things & a pastor once said when Benedict Hinn came to town, "If he really had a gift for healing why is he not visiting the downtown area hospitals, the poor and the sick rather than 'putting on a show' and making much money doing so and glorifying himself?"

Again - to whom does the ministry point the eyes - Christ crucified and risen for sin or something else?

I was once accused of trying to "put God in a box" when I affirmed basically what the WCF says, though I wasn't referencing it but the sufficiency of Scripture. To which I replied, "I'm not trying to put God in a box such is ridiculous to even state, I'm putting men in a box, I trust God that is why I affirm His final word given to us."

Plus, what are we to make of all the warnings that Christ Himself gave us regarding many will come in My name showing great signs and wonders?

Exactly. If God has said that He has given His Son as the Final Word, who are we to tell Him that He is unable to set such a boundary?

Exactly. If God has said that He has given His Son as the Final Word, who are we to tell Him that He is unable to set such a boundary?

The way you just stated that 'clicked' in a fresh way for me. (I'd been studying in John) Christ was indeed the WORD incarnate (John 1) Who came into the world to expressly communicate and be the revealing of God to us so that we could "see" Him - as mercy to us (2 Cor 4:4,6). His Son the Word = "Final Word".

Originally posted by Larry Hughes

Exactly. If God has said that He has given His Son as the Final Word, who are we to tell Him that He is unable to set such a boundary?

The way you just stated that 'clicked' in a fresh way for me. (I'd been studying in John) Christ was indeed the WORD incarnate (John 1) Who came into the world to expressly communicate and be the revealing of God to us so that we could "see" Him - as mercy to us (2 Cor 4:4,6). His Son the Word = "Final Word".

Yes. That is exactly what is being said in Hebrews 1:1

Originally posted by fredtgreco

Originally posted by Charismatic Calvinist
What makes you so sure that you would believe even if you did see it, Fred?

But although He had done so many signs before them, they would not believe Him...(John 12:37)

Perhaps because I have the Spirit of God, and the ones claiming such gifts reject the Trinity, want to add to God's revelation, claim prophetic authority for themselves to add to and contradict God's Word, despise His church (remember, God is going to do away with the Church and do "better things" through them), claim to speak to the dead (good ol' Benny Hinn), claim God is a physical person (good ol' Jesse Duplantis) and other assorted nut cases.

Chuck, what is that supposed to mean?

Fred lulled me to sleep...ssshhh!

Originally posted by SmokingFlax
Honestly...I caught myself in mid-sentence (by then it was too late) puffing myself up...I blurted out something like -"God ALWAYS answers my prayers" while witnessing to someone...Ugh! That was several years ago and I've been mad (and greatly disappointed) at myself ever since -what a lie.

That's not a lie, Flax. God DOES always answer your prayers.

Sometimes the answer is 'no'.

Sometimes the answer is 'not right now'.

Sometimes the answer is 'yes'.

Originally posted by paul manata
Chuck, what say ye to Uggalli?

I would include Uggalli in my fervent supplication/intercession for a certain brother (apparently) beseiged with deep-seated issues of anger in his soul, perhaps rooted in disappointment over the absence of various aspects of the New Testament life that Christ described as commonplace for those that believe on Him.