I find myself in yet another curious position. That is, a position that I thought I held and refined is not as clear-cut as I believed.

To wit - I believed that my understanding of the gifts and working of the Holy Spirit placed me firmly within the Continuationist camp, but I am finding that the Cessationist tent may be large enough that I may, with clear conscience, claim that I am a cessationist, while still holding to the general principle of claiming the characteristic "charismatic" and not feeling I am inconsistent or contradictory.

In addition to my other readings, these 2 articles by Phil Johnson have been very helpful:

Cessationism again

You're probably a cessationist, too

I think this neatly summarizes the terms - emphasis mine:

By these terms, anyone that believes the canon of Scripture is closed must be a cessationist. This, to me, is the key defining characteristic on which the Reformed principle of Sola Scriptura lives or dies and one I, or any well-considered Christian, may not compromise.

Now, as to the degree or particulars of cessation, that is a good topic of discussion

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-JD

you want to follow the debate on cessationism between blog kings Dan Phillips (Pyromaniacs) and Adrian Warnock. Sorry I dont have the link just now. Google it and you will prob find it though. Otherwise I will include the link later.

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"A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent." John Calvin

John from Scotland
Denomination: Attending Baptist church
Confessional Subscription:London Baptist Confession
Blog: [url]www.three-streams.co.uk[/url]

It is apparent in the NT that gifts were given to people; or to the church via people. It seems that these gifts were exercised at will. And, it seems that in each case there was a clear point to be made. They weren't sensational in the sense that they were to draw attention to the one gifted. The four cases of tongues, for example, showed that a new people group was affirmed in the New Covenant (Jews, Gentiles, Samaritans and those baptized with John's baptism). And they were a means by which the unwritten Word of the New Covenant were carried to new people until the canon was closed. Therefore, I do not think that gifts are given to people today.
However, that does not mean that God does not perform miracles. And, I would stop short of saying that God does not use gifts of healings or tongues today. I just don't think He does so by giving a person a gift. He gifts the church with these things, and uses them to build His church. Healings are the work of God, often my means of prayer, in which He restores someone mentally/spiritually and/or physically. He can do so wherever and whenever He pleases. And I am confident that He does. As for tongues, it is entirely possible that some hear God's Word in their own tongues. I've never heard a first-hand account. I have heard what I would consider credible second hand accounts. But, it simply leaves me considering it as a very real possibility without espousing it as something that definitely happens today.
Bottom line, who is drawing attention to whom? (Did I use "whom" right? ) Does the gift draw attention to God or man? Is man drawing attention to himself? Are they claiming that God is drawing attention to man? Phooey! If what is happening is not fully accredited to God and drawing full attention to Him and the people involved are not pointing to Him as the source and praising Him for what He is doing then I write it off as man centered sensationalism and having nothing to do with God almighty.

Well, that's my nickel's worth anyway.

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For the Glory of our King,
Joe Johnson
Slave of Christ, husband, father, Preacherboy at Cornerstone Community Church, Escanaba, MI. and TMS graduate. Personal website - SoundLife.org

I do not know, and I do not say, that a person cannot believe in Revelation and in evolution, too, for a man may believe that which is infinitely wise and also that which is only asinine. ~ CHS

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Michael Cope
Pastor, BGBC (non-denom)
West Lafayette, IN (Home of the Boilermakers!!!)

"Him we proclaim, warning everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone mature in Christ. For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me." Col. 1:28,29

A couple of comments:

1. I wouldn't use Phil Johnson as a source in defining one's theological perspective. However, I might quote him if he concurs with me on a point.

2. The two "If you believe" statements you quote above do not mention the Canon per se, and I don't see how your statement that "anyone that believes the canon of Scripture is closed must be a cessationist" follows as a logical conclusion.

Maybe I'm missing your point.

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Jim
1689 LBCF
Independent Bible Church
North Texas, USA

After hearing this type of statement, I'm always left wondering, "Was the capability to write of Scripture a gift?" If anybody has some helpful remarks on this, I'm eager to hear. It just seems problematic to me to say that the Apostolic ability/call to write and complete the canon of Scripture is a gift in the spectrum of gifts given to the Church at Pentecost.

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Jacob
Sovereign Grace Ministries
Covenant Fellowship Church
WTS M.A.R. in Theology student
West Chester, PA

"Grace renews nature; glory perfects grace." ~ John Owen
"Grace tried is better than grace, and more than grace. It is glory in its infancy." ~ John Flavel
Blog - The Strasbourg Inn

It is my experience that most continuationists today acknowledge that the Canon is closed and that the continuing gifts (such as prophecy, tongues, knowledge, or whatever) do not add to God's revealed Word in Scripture.

If, as many claim, gifts of tongues, knowledge, interpretation and the like are direct revelation from God, then they must have ceased with the close of the canon. Otherwise, 2 Timothy 3:16-17 is a lie. This is the problem with sensational charismania. This is especially true if one claims that one of these gifts MUST be manifested in your life in order for you to be saved.
However, if one sees the gifts today as God working in certain times and places, rather than giving one person divine power, then I would think that we can set such concerns aside. As most of you know, TMS is a cessationist school. While there is grace in this matter, and C.J. Mahaney is one of the favorite speakers to visit there, it is taught rather dogmatically. One of the second hand stories I heard was something like this: A TMS graduate who studied charismatic theology while there went to be a missionary in South Africa. The ministry was, and is, doing quite well. They are training native Africans to preach God's Word. One man came and knew where he wanted to minister. He had a burden for a certain tribe. But he didn't know the language. As I've heard it, this TMS student tells of his student with a sense of wonder. He says, "I knew, coming out here, that people don't speak in tongues today." But, this humble man went to that tribe and began to preach. He didn't make a big deal out of it. He didn't tell people. But he didn't know the language when we went to them. He just started preaching and they understood. Apparently his ministry among them is doing quite well.
How do I explain this? Well, first, it's second hand, so I hold it loosely. Second of all, I don't. It's not my place to explain it. If it's the work of God then praise God for raising up a minister to these people. If it's a hoax, then the man isn't very good at drawing attention to himself. And, in the end it swayed a die hard cessationist to admit that he can no longer claim that tongues are no longer manifested.
What happened? Did this mean miraculously learn the language? Did the sound of his voice change as it passed through the air? All he knows is that he can now communicated in a language he never knew. This people had no gospel witness because nobody brought it to them in their language. This would fit the Scriptural example of the purpose of tongues, to reach and confirm a new people group in the gospel. So I let it stand as a very real possibility. But my church doesn't need this. We have God's written word in our tongue. We have the Word preached in our tongue. Therefore, speaking in tongues would be a distraction that would draw undue attention to man and away from God. It's all I can do to stay out of God's way as it is.

-----Added 2/23/2009 at 09:41:00 EST-----

I agree. God moved men to write Scripture. Men did not receive a gift and exercise it at will. God breathed! Men wrote. I think this is an excellent observation.

This is an incorrect description of cessationism and fitted to throw the issue into confusion. A cessationist holds that the extraordinary means whereby God revealed His will to the apostolic church have ceased and that the believer is to look to the Holy Spirit speaking in the Word to settle all questions which respect what we are to believe concerning God and what duty He requires of man.

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Yours sincerely,


"Illum oportet crescere me autem minui."

I would agree. But there is a growing influence among the prophetic movement that "the wise man brings out of his storehouse treasures old and new" and the bible is old treasure and the prophets are new treasure. In their hearts- maybe not minds, but nevertheless from the heart- the prophets are treated like canon. Some big guys are even claiming to be getting visitations from the Patriarchs and OT prophets who are telling them things.

You really can't assume anything at all anymore when people use certain terms. I call myself a "Grudemite" just to distinguish my views from the craziness.

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Lynnie

PCA

Central NJ

This is an apostolic era gift of the Holy Spirit initiated at Pentecost that has ceased.

If it has not, the canon is not closed.

No one here questions whether God acts in miraculous ways today. And yes, I too would separate the likes Grudem and Sam Storms from the crazies.

The Continuationist argument (IMHO) is that the extraordinary gifts continue today, invested in individuals, such that one might say, "He has the gift of . . ." They also say that the excercise of these miraculous gifts are a normal function of the local church today, just as administration, service, hospitality, etc.

I am not sure how we disagree or how it is confusing?

Both cessationists and continuations (evangelical) share the belief that the canon is closed. By making anyone who believes in a closed canon a cessationist, the line which properly separates the two positions is removed, thereby encouraging people to talk past each other.

This seems a partial definition and does indeed add to the confusion in terms, because how one understands and defines the terms leads to how the doctrinal position develops. Sorta like the preterist term - whether you are a partial, full, consistent, etc, really qualifies the term.

Most continuationists and cessationists believe that the gifts of the Holy Spirit, as defined in Scripture, are still valid for today, the difference is a matter of degree and temporality.

On one end you have the Charismatic Pentecostal, that accepts contemporary apostolic and prophetic authority, which includes "Thus saith the Lord" and "signs and wonder" type spectacular gifts. Think Benny Hinn.

This, to me, is the Full Continuationist stance that invalidates Sola Scriptura, since, in this view, God's word is still being progressively revealed and attested to through signs and wonders.

Every other view, IMHO, is truly a cessationist position - defined by degree.

-----Added 2/23/2009 at 10:39:48 EST-----

Hi, Matthew - as I posted above, I think the dividing line between continuationism and cessationism must inevitably lead to the level of authority and purpose of the Holy Spirit's gifts for the post-apostolic (if that condition truly exists) church. After that key condition is understood, the refining/defining characteristics follow.

as I posted above:

This is an apostolic era gift of the Holy Spirit initiated at Pentecost for the development of the NT canon that has ceased.

If it has not, the canon is not closed.

just to clarify - I believe we are in the post-apostolic, closed-canon era.

A lot of confusion has been created about this.

It has taken a long time to understand this, but I think I am understanding the basic issues. I could be wrong, but here is how I am viewing this now:

The issue is whether God continues new revelation outside of Scripture. Allowing for natural revelation (a certain kind of revelation by which God reveals Himself to all men so they are without excuse in refusing Him, cf Romans 1), Reformed theology says "special revelation" by which we know God is contained in Scripture (allowing of course for "miracles"). That's why reformed theology really does have such a high view of Scripture.

The faith was once and for all delivered to the saints in His Word, and the foundation laid by the Prophets and Apostles is contained in His Word. It is not "re-laid" or "built upon" by ongoing special revelation through "gifts."

Pentecostal and charismatic theology, explicitly or implicitly says that there is new special revelation coming now outside of His Word through "gifts." This is contrary to a fundamental tenet of Reformed Theology- the authority of Scripture.

Generally, pentecostal/charismatic influenced groups will say that their revelation is only taken if in "agreement with the Word." That makes the extra-biblical new revelation an equal of scripture. This is why there is so much disorder in their communions.

The issues is not so much whether certain miraculous gifts can exist today (I believe they can) but what the nature of "gifts" are. All acknowledge God can and does miracles and the Westminster Confession, acknowledges this.

For example, a congregation hovering to hear "a Word from the Lord" coming through an unknown tongue is equating that revelation with Scripture. Most pentecostals/charismatics do not understand that because they have not been systematically taught Scripture. Therefore, they are prone to "revelations" from charismatic "teachers" and "prophets" or imagine they are being doctrinally directed by "gifts" in their own minds, will or emotions rather than by the Holy Spirit speaking through Scripture.

Also remember, virtually all pentecostal/charismatic denominations do not meet even the broadest definition of reformed theology.

Instead of being:

"Five points" + "Covenant theology" + "Confession of Faith"

they are instead,

"Arminian influenced" + "Dispensational theology" + "no Confession"

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Scott
PCA
North Carolina


"Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)"
Hebrews 10:23

I am the lone cessationist among my friends, most of whom are Calvinists but still go to our (relatively tame and "liberal", if you can call it that) pentecostal church. I don't know what the big deal about not believing in "tongues" and "revelation" and such is, but it seems I'm the only one who has made the quantum leap to the dark side. I've been psychoanalyzed by my friends at times, hinting that perhaps I am just seeking to distance myself from Pentecostalism out of frustration or bitterness, but I don't see why that should be true; and plus, why can't they simply be reluctant to abandon it because they have some sort of subconscious desire to conform to the beliefs of the majority around them, or to continue believing the things their parents have taught them so that they don't disappoint them, or whatever?

Either way, it is not a discussion I am particularly fond of having, unless with certain people in certain circumstances (you might imagine I don't particularly like having it at church, or with people who have been "baptized with the Holy Spirit" (and furthermore, I'll say the whole concept of "baptism in the Holy Spirit" is nebulous and unclear to me; some definitions of it are either (when put into practical consideration) useless or (at other times) self-refuting)).

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Steven Nemes
Phoenix, AZ

Good philosophy must exist, if for no other reason, because bad philosophy must be answered - C.S. Lewis

We want to be very careful not to equate pentecostalism and charismatics. There are a lot of charismatics out there who are nowhere close to Pentecosts. CJ Mahaney is an excellent example of a charismatic who is reformed in his soteriology. Where he is eschatologically I have no idea.

We've discussed this before, but pentecostalism fails on so many fronts that it's frightening. I wouldn't even call it dispensationalism, except in a loose sense. From my experience, there is no systematic thought process in their understanding. They take verses out of context and pile them on other verses out of context to form some sort of nebulous thought process that makes sense to nobody else. Regardless of how much one dislikes dispensationalism, contrary to pentecostalism, it is systematic.

See my comments

I agree with most of your observations.

I would used to agree that dispensationalism is systematic in the same way as, say, reformed theology. But no longer, I do not believe dispensationalism accounts for the whole of Scripture, it chops it up and imposes it's system on Scripture.

Covenant theology, is a systematic summary of all of Scripture, assuming the perspecuity of God's Word as a whole. I really don't believe dispensationalism assumes that, and therefore is not really "systematic" of the whole of Scripture.

I consider myself continuationist though I don't believe there are apostles today. I am continuationist because I don't believe there is a good scriptural basis for cessationism not because I'm a holy roller. I've never been a member of a charasmatic church but I also don't want to say "God doesn't do this or that" when I don't believe there is a biblical basis.

-----Added 2/23/2009 at 06:17:59 EST-----

I would exhort you not to throw the baby out with the bathwater so to speak. It's easiest for people who've been around a false, extremist view of something to jump to another extreme. I think it's important for people to discard experiences (good and bad ones) in seeking to determine truth and look strictly to the bible. The scripture does not support the errors of the pentecostal movement but it likewise doesn't support a full cessationism either.

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[B]Manley Beasley[/B]
Southern Baptist Convention
Fayetteville, Arkansas

[B]Wir sein pettler. Hoc est verum (We are beggars. This is true.).--Luther's dying words[/B]

Well I've posted another thread in this board--why not hop over to it and clarify a bit on my questions?

Neither would a cessationist. It is a matter of expectation in the ordinary course of things and what believers are to seek from God. A continuationist not only holds in common with the cessationist that it is possible for God to work outside of ordinary means, but also distinctively maintains that the revelatory gifts are ordinary means and that it is the believer's duty to seek after them and employ them as a part of the ordinary Christian life.

Emphasis added - excellent and succinct summary - and this accurately describes why I am a cessationist.