I have been a born again Christian for only 2 years and have very limited knowledge on this subject so I'm hoping some of you can be of help.

On the night I was born again I believe that the Lord spoke to me very clearly and that something was revealed to me which in time happened exactly as I told my wife it had been revealed.

In discussion the other night with 2 Christians they were of the opinion that these things do not happen any more but I wholeheartedly believe that at times they do.

I in no way rely on experience alone but only in the light of the word of God and would value other peoples opinions on this.

Thanks

David

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David
Stornoway Free Church (Continuing)
Isle of Lewis, Scotland

Hi David,

I am of the reservation that God doesn't speak today in a manner that one can proclaim "God told me so and so..." in a particularly prescriptive sense.

Does God speak today? Sure! See The morning John Piper heard the voice of God. As for what you experienced, personally and at the risk of overstating, no it is not divine revelation.

Maybe some others here have something more helpful to say.

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Ewen
1689 LBCF
Assemblies of God Bible College
Singapore

I was hoping someone with more wisdom than me would come along, but for what it's worth...

I think it's dangerous to use words like "God said this to me" unless you had a Moses experience and actually heard the words. I've heard people retell communication with God as if it were an everyday conversation - "So I said, God do you really want me to do this?" and God said, "Absolutely; I'm gonna bless you through it", so I said,... and He said,... What on earth is going on when they tell these stories? Even in the article Ewen linked to Piper talked about "hearing God" as like having sudden memory of what someone had said - I wouldn't call that "hearing", I'd call it having a sudden memory.

Language issues aside, God does communicate to us. I believe I've been given knowledge twice in prayer; two times I've had a very strong assurance that my prayer has been answered so much so that it would have been wrong to pray again for that thing. The first thing (that someone would get pregnant soon) happened straight away; the second thing (that God is preparing godly spouses for my children) I'm still waiting for. I've had significant but lesser levels of assurance and guidance at other times of prayer, but those two stand out in my mind as being like knowledge given to me. i.e. direct one to one communication. The other times could be a product of my own mind for all I know and so can't be really trusted without extra guidance from the bible and the church.

To say that God no longer communicates one to one or to restrict the possible ways in which He might do it is to limit God when there is no explicit scripture where He restricts Himself. On the other hand one should be very careful to not over-identify such things because it can easily lead to error from our deceitful hearts and lying spirits. In summary - your friends are erroneously limiting God and you should a) not worry about it and b) not put too much trust in those revelations.

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Paul
No denomination, affiliated with FIEC
"Deliver me from worldly dispositions, for I am born from above and destined for glory" - Valley of Vision
"They think it strange that you do not plunge with them into the same flood of dissipation" - Peter

Possibilities include:


(1) God actually spoke to you

(2) A demon spoke to you (if so, what did he say...'test the spirits")

(3) your own consciousness was so strong that you heard your own consciousness as if it were an audible voice. (3b) you were asleep or mind wandering in such a way that you experienced unreal sensations as though they were real, like a really real day-dream.

(4) you are using the phrase "God spoke to me" in less than a completely literal way.

(5) you are hallucinatory/delusional.

(6) you are lying




These seem to be all the possibilities.



Now, Chrisitans in the West and even more around the world often report what you are reporting. This is not an unheard of occurrence. I am also sure that all of the reasons I listed account for some of these occurrences. My advice to you would be to try to honestly consider which of these 6 reasons could account for your experience.

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Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

As Reformed and Presbyterians, we don't expect new revelations or supernatural words of knowledge now that the Biblical canon is completed.
(E.g. Revelation 22:18-19; I Corinthians 13:8-13 - this passage refers to prophecy, the gift of languages/"tongues" and supernatural words of knowledge passing away when "the complete thing" comes which is the complete Bible; get a hold of a good commentary e.g. Hodge and it will show that it is not speaking about the end of the world.)

We have no office of prophet in the Reformed church because Christ is our prophet speaking to His Church by His Spirit through the inscripturated Word.

In unusual circumstances some Reformed individuals have appeared to have had some prophetic revelations e.g. Alexander Peden the Covenanter.

Now you are converted it is important to put more reliance on the "more sure Word of prophecy" (the Scriptures) than any particular experiences you have had. I'm not saying what or what not your experience was, but we are advised to put what the Bible says about the new birth, faith and repentance and the marks of grace above all our experiences.

The Apostle Peter is actually saying here that the inscripturated Word of God is a more reliable light than his experience of the transfiguration and hearing the voice of God!!

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.(II Peter 1:16-21)

Now that the Christian has the complete Bible in his/her hands he shouldn't seek new revelations, but if he does experience something like this he should lay it up in his heart and test it by Scripture, and he should look to Scripture rather than " the less sure word of prophecy" -if it is a word from God - to test all his experiences and his conversion and Christian growth. The more mature Christians we are we will become less dependent on such experiences and more filled with and dependent on God's Word.

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Richard
communicant member, FCoS
Perth, Scotland UK

His Name forever shall endure;
last like the sun it shall:
Men shall be blessed in Him,
and blessed all nations shall Him call (Ps. 72:17)

Richard, that's exactly what I would say. However I still scratch my head a bit over 1 Cor. 1-5 (Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy......he that prophesieth edifieth the church, etc) Can you help?

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JennyG
Church of Scotland (Presbyterian)
Fife, Scotland

Would divine revelation be specific to the Bible?

Any how I do believe things like this happen where God still speaks to us and miracles happen, I had it happen to me to much to dismiss it out of hand. My life could be considered a miracle I was not suppose to talk, walk, or type. I was on death's doorstep quite literally and a whole church prayed, that afternoon I was totally healed.

So it is my opinion that things still happen when God wills them too.

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Doug
Baptist
Hemet, Ca
Old Time Radio Podcast

Remember that the Apostle is first speaking to the Corinthians not us. The Corinthians were living at a time when they didn't have the complete New Testament and therefore were reliant on prophets.

But in I Corinthians 13, and elsewhere in the Bible, it's indicated that tongues, prophecy and words of knowledge were for the baby state of the church. Once the church had "the complete thing" it could and should put away that which was "piecemeal"

The church at this time was moving from the childishness of the Old Covenant with its picture book Gospel in ceremonies and its childhood discipline in the Mosaic penal law, to the adolescence and adulthood of having the Bible complete. But at this stage the Bible wasn't complete. When it was, a warning was attached to the end of Revelation- the book that was destined to be the last book of the Bible.

Unlike the Pentecostalists/Charismatics we must put away childish things. I Corinthians 13:12 doesn't mention seeing the Lord as the charismatics insert. The Lord and the end of the world aren't mentioned. What is mentioned is "a glass", or "mirror" as we would say. When you look into a mirror you don't see the Lord's face but your own face. If a mirror isn't polished or is dirty we see "as in a glass darkly" but when that which is obscuring the mirror is removed we see "face to face" i.e. we see ourselves clearly.

The Apostle is saying that the prophecies, words of knowledge, and revelation through translated language revelations (tongues), are like an incomplete or dirty mirror through which the Corinthians and other first century Christians are able to view themselves partially. But when the Bible is complete they will look into it and be able to see themselves "face to face." This isn't the only place where the Bible is likened to a mirror. (James 1:23-25)

now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

This refers to the lack of self-conciousness of a child. Before a child moves from lack of self-consciousness and self-understanding into adolescence and adulthood he cannot look back on his childhood with the self-realisation and self-cosciousness of an adult. In a sense the father or mother of the child, or other adults, know the child better than he knows himself.

Now that the church has reached its rebellious adolescence and -hopefully- is moving towards its mature adulthood, it can look back on its childhood with a new and comprehensive knowledge, through the mature perspective of God's complete revelation.

And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.(I Cor. 13:13)
This last verse confirms what we've being saying that the Apostle is not talking about the end of time.

We are told that when we meet Christ faith - as we know it - will be replaced by sight (Heb. 11:1; II Cor. 5:6-7). We also are told by the Apostle to the Gentiles, that hope as we know it will cease in the eternal realm. (Romans 8:24-25)

Therefore of faith, hope and love, only love will continue without being radically transformed in the eternal realm, which may be one reason that love is the greatest grace of the three.

Therefore the Apostle must be saying that faith, hope and charity will continue in history in the church long after the gifts of prophecy, tongues and supernatural knowledge have been left behind, because the church has the complete Bible and is, or should be moving on from childishness to fulness and maturity.

There are other passages of Scripture that confirm cessationist views of the five charismatic gifts: prophecy, tongues, interpretation of tongues, the gift of healing and miracles, and the two charismatic offices of apostle and prophet.

There are over twenty gifts mentioned in the New Testament and various other offices. But we strongly disagree with Pentecostalists/Charismatics on the above.

Thanks for directing me to your post Richard.

this is actually the first time I've read this view of the glass/mirror and it's relationship with the Bible. Very interesting.

My question is that when we note that the Apostle Paul says, now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known, does this mean that he himself is in need of the full canon of Scripture? Additionally, it seems that he also expects to know even as he is also known. Does that mean that he expects canonization in his own lifetime, so that he can be complete in his self-realization?

These are some implications, which are still problematic for me:

1. the Apostle does not possess a clear, full picture of divine revelation --> can he be trusted with what he wrote previously?
2. That he is sure what NT scripture is and he knows with certainty that he and others are writing it.
3. He expects at some later date to collect and canonize scripture so that he and the church can have the full revelation

I have trouble believing this to be the case, let's keep dialoguing!

D.

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Dennis Oh
Toronto, Canada
"The gospel is only good news if it gets there in time" -- Carl F. H. Henry

Judisch, Douglas McCallum Lindsay. An Evaluation of Claims to the Charismatic Gifts. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House, 1978. Repr. Concordia Seminary Press, 1985. 96 pp.

I'd advise you to get the above book if you can, because he explains things better than I could. He also deals with a number of other passages that teach cessation.

Available from abebooks and maybe elsewhere. I don't know if it's available online :-

0801050820 - AbeBooks

Also maybe amazon :-


This book by Robert L. Reymond is also excellent :-

"What about continuing revelations and miracles in the Presbyterian Church today?": A study of the doctrine of the sufficiency of Scripture by Robert L. Reymond | LibraryThing

I don't know where you would get it. I'm not a member of librarything nor do I know how it operates. The book by Judisch may also be available from librarything (?)

Also "Signs of the Apostles" by Walter Chantry (BoT)

I have trouble believing this to be the case, let's keep dialoguing! D.

This is a well balanced list of possibilities. In the present case option 3 is the only genuine possibility. Counsellors have heard of episodes in which people have undergone intense religious struggles where the resolution is so sudden and clear that it seems to the individual that God has appeared or spoken in some way. As that individual develops in faith and godly experience he will have a better framework from which to interpret his struggle and its resolution.

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Yours sincerely,


"Illum oportet crescere me autem minui."